Head plumbing

[fred1diver]

Hey everyone, another quick question, this spring I’ll be redoing the plumbing in my g26, I‘m confused as to the head plumbing, there seems to be too many hoses, I know the overboard discharge is not legal and there is no hoses connected to the thru hull, so I‘m thinking about removing the y valve, but it still leaves me with a lot of hoses



Looking to understand all the hoses, I know there is the pump out hose, the vent, the water intake, the toilet to holding tank, am I missing a few in my list

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Search marine head plumbing

 

[rgranger]

It looks to me like someone took a very lazy way out to make the boat "legal" by removing a connection from the Y-valve to the through hull here

Definitely not the best set up. If someone accidentally turns the valve the wrong way....

Or if someone accidentally opens the through hull valve...

 

[fred1diver]

I know, not sure how I’m going to remedy that on

 

[capta]

In the first picture it appears as though the hose from the pump to the toilet rear for rinse water goes up to a siphon break. This is wrong! It should go from the pump directly to the toilet back.
I can see no reason not to remove the Y and get rid of that hose to the through hull, but keep both as a buyer may wish to revert to the other system and it will help the sale (that's what we've done, only in reverse). However, I would most strongly suggest you get that plastic tail piece out of the through hull (it shouldn't be there anyway) and replace it with a proper metal pipe plug.
The black ridged hose should be the water intake (necessary), a bit light duty for my taste, but commonly used. The large green should be discharge to Y valve, and necessary. Big black hose may be fuel fill and necessary, but reroutable if you please.
Could the last braided hose be a cockpit drain? Again, you could reroute it if you wished, to neaten up things down there.

 

[fred1diver]

You’re right about the corrugated hose being the intake, there is no fuel fill hose, I think that one is for the pum out, the other yellow hose is for the vent


you’re right about the siphon the more I look at the pictures, so I can simplify that one, cool one less hose to deal with
I’ll look into a plug for the thru hull, and I’ll definitely remove the Y valve but will keep it for the next guy, if I ever want to sell her

here is the vent and siphon break

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

In the first picture it appears as though the hose from the pump to the toilet rear for rinse water goes up to a siphon break. This is wrong! It should go from the pump directly to the toilet back.

Sorry Capta, but the intake vented loop DOES belong between the pump and bowl...and where it's shown in the installation instructions for every manual toilet. This is because putting it between the thru-hull and the pump would interfere with the toilet's ability to prime it would pull in air through the vent in the loop. But the pump PUSHES water to the bowl...so no interference.

And btw..the loop should be at least 6-8" above waterline at ANY angle of heel, not just when the boat is at rest....which on most sailboats puts it 2-3 FEET above the bowl. (see photograph).

Fred...looking at your photos, I strongly recommend that you remove ALL the hoses and start fresh with new ones. The working life of any hose is only about 10 years because rubber and plastics dry out, becoming hard, brittle and prone to cracking and splitting...and yours are obviously at least that old. What's more, your flush water intake hose is clear water hose, not rated for below-waterline installation...there's corrugated hose... a lo of black hose that may or may not be sanitation hose....I have no idea what kind of hoses the green and yellow hoses are... Get rid of all of it along with all valves and fittings you can't use and start over with a nice clean installation.
I can't see enough of your toilet pump to know what make it is, but I can see enough to know it's pretty old too...which means the pump is pretty much worn out. You should be able to replace just the pump.

This may sound like a lot, but yours is a pretty straightforward installation so you actually don't need a lot, just some decent quality hoses that are made for use in sanitation systems. And while there's a limit to how cheap you can go and expect things to last, you don't have to spend top dollar to end up with a system that 'll be trouble free for at least 10 years. If you'd like some one-on-one help getting it all right the first time without breaking the bank, you're welcome to give me a shout via PM.

--Peggie

 

[jeepbluetj]

Peggie is right. (as usual, she's what you call... an expert) Particularly with rip it all out and starting with new hose.

For any boat that isn't commonly where direct discharge is OK, a Y valve is useless. So lose that. Pay attention to where the vented loop goes. That congregated hose.. I hate that stuff, it's weak and unsightly.

If you cannot remove the big through hull that the Y valve connected to (the correct thing) - at least plug it so that opening that valve doesn't sink the boat.

 

[fred1diver]

Thanks Peggy, I’ll definitely get in touch when this project comes up in the spring, I have a better pic of the toilet, maybe you can make it out

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Between now and then, give this idea some thought:

On any boat much smaller than about 28', a self-contained system—an "MSD" portapotty-- makes a lot of sense. Yes, it IS a portapottty, but the "MSD" designation in the model name/number means it has fittings for a pumpout line and vent line, and is designed to be permanently installed (actually just sturdier brackets than portables, so you could still take it off the boat if you absolutely have to), which means that although it's still called a PORTApotty, you don't have to carry anything off the boat to empty it.

A 5-6 gallon model holds 50-60 flushes...you'd need at least a 30 gal tank to hold that many from a manual marine toilet. No plumbing needed except a vent line and pumpout hose--so no new holes in the boat...and -0- maintenance needed except for rinsing out the tank--which you can do with a bucket while it's being pumped out. Total cost including the pumpout hose and vent line is about $200--a fraction of what you'd spend for toilet, tank and all the related plumbing needed. And the best part is, you have all the advantages of a toilet and holding tank without giving up a single square foot of storage space.

Check out the Thetford 550P MSD and the Dometic/SeaLand 975MSD Sanipottie . Thetford has discontinued the 550PMSD, but it’s still available from most retailers…the Dometic 975MSD is still in production. They’re comparable, and not much can go wrong with either one, so if you like the Thetford find out if sbo.com still carries it before shopping for it elsewhere. Sbo.com does have the Dometic 975MSD.

A number of people here have opted to go with an MSD portapotty...hopefully some of 'em will chime in with their experience with it.

--Peggie

 

[rgranger]

I have the domestic version that peggie describes. It is not. Plumbed with a pump out and my marina does not have that service so I prob won’t put it on my 2do list

but I can say that it is a very functional unit. I have no complaints

 

[capta]

Sorry Capta, but the intake vented loop DOES belong between the pump and bowl...

In more than 5 decades on boats of all types, I have never once seen a siphon break between the pump and the bowl. Not once!
When I see marine toilets for sale in a chandler, they all have the hose directly from the pump to the bowl, and that is the hose the parts lists show for that purpose.

 

[Charlie Jones s/v Tehani]

I also have the Dometic MSD- I installed in in Boot Key Harbor- the rules there were pump out or leave after 7 days. Has worked flawlessly for me since 2010. The only time I have used it as a "porta potty" was in the Bahamas where at that time, there were no pumpouts. All round the coast, from Annapolis to here in Port Lavaca, pump out stations were readily available at reasonable costs. many were free- i got told- we'd rather you pump than dump. And I'll tell you- Boot Key was a WHOLE lot more pleasant (water wise) than when I was there in 1981 when the was zero pumpout facilities

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

In more than 5 decades on boats of all types, I have never once seen a siphon break between the pump and the bowl. Not once!

Then you haven't read very many manual toilet owners manuals . See Figure 1 on page 3 in the Jabsco manual Jabsco 29090 Manual Twist & Lock owners manual , figure 2 on page 5 in the Raritan PHII manual... figure 5 on page 5 in the PH SuperFlush manual Raritan SuperFlush Owners Manual But it's not only installed between the pump and the bowl on manual toilets...that's where it belongs on sea water electric toilets...see page 7 in the Raritan SeaEra owners manual Raritan SeaEra owners manual Jabsco shows it in the line between the thru-hull and the pump motor assembly on their 37010 sea water toilet, but putting there requires an electric solenoid valve on the loop (see page 2 in the owners manual Jabsco 37010 owners manual) that would not be needed if the loop were installed between the pump and the bowl...which isn't possible on all electric toilets, only those that have a connecting hose.

[/QUOTE]When I see marine toilets for sale in a chandler, they all have the hose directly from the pump to the bowl, and that is the hose the parts lists show for that purpose.[/QUOTE]

That's because an intake vented loop is only needed on toilets installed below waterline, which--surprisingly--is only about half of 'em, making it a waste of money to install vented loops on every toilet that leaves the factory. The amount of hose needed varies too, 'cuz the loop has to be installed much higher on sailboats than on powerboats. So it's up to the owner/installer to add the intake vented loop. Granted, that does require reading the installation instructions...something a lot of owners don't seem to consider necessary and also results in a lot of electric toilets being wired incorrectly too.

--Peggie

 

[thinwater]

Then you haven't read very many manual toilet owners manuals . See Figure 1 on page 3 in the Jabsco manual Jabsco 29090 Manual Twist & Lock owners manual , figure 2 on page 5 in the Raritan PHII manual... figure 5 on page 5 in the PH SuperFlush manual Raritan SuperFlush Owners Manual But it's not only installed between the pump and the bowl on manual toilets...that's where it belongs on sea water electric toilets...see page 7 in the Raritan SeaEra owners manual Raritan SeaEra owners manual Jabsco shows it in the line between the thru-hull and the pump motor assembly on their 37010 sea water toilet, but putting there requires an electric solenoid valve on the loop (see page 2 in the owners manual Jabsco 37010 owners manual) that would not be needed if the loop were installed between the pump and the bowl...which isn't possible on all electric toilets, only those that have a connecting hose.

When I see marine toilets for sale in a chandler, they all have the hose directly from the pump to the bowl, and that is the hose the parts lists show for that purpose.[/QUOTE]

That's because an intake vented loop is only needed on toilets installed below waterline, which--surprisingly--is only about half of 'em, making it a waste of money to install vented loops on every toilet that leaves the factory. The amount of hose needed varies too, 'cuz the loop has to be installed much higher on sailboats than on powerboats. So it's up to the owner/installer to add the intake vented loop. Granted, that does require reading the installation instructions...something a lot of owners don't seem to consider necessary and also results in a lot of electric toilets being wired incorrectly too.

--Peggie
[/QUOTE]
I recall an article in SAIL magazine about a year ago where they incorrectly showed the vented loop on the pump suction, as you point out. It's hard to pull air. Yes, it was a below-waterline installation. So listen to Peggie... and the instructions!

 

[Giro]

I had a Nature’s Head installed this last summer. It’s a functional, “green” alternative way to go, no real mess and no fuss. For two people, it’s efficient and only needs to have the liquid tank dumped every few days and the solid bin dumped every three to five months. The ventilation system provides an odorless situation and the construction appears to be long lasting (of course only time will tell) but so far, I’m impressed. It’s not the cheapest system, but I’ve spent $1,000 on lesser satisfactory products. Other sailors I’ve talked to in our marina pretty much agree with my assessment (that includes boats ranging in size from 22’ to 50’).