I'm not currently a racer but find myself interested in all aspects of sailing. I'm going to include a statements as I understand it and would appreciate if you could tell me if the premise is correct or not or where may I be missing the point. A handicap system is utilized to allow two different sailboats to race in a fair and equitable manner. It is the object to have the sailing abilities of the crews to be the determinant factor. If the above premise is correct I would like to understand why is so much money spent on racing sails, lines and equipment when the competitive edge gained should be neutralized by an updated handicap penalty. I have also observed from race results that well equiped boats usually win the races with very rarely an entry level boat being the winner. Is the equipment making the difference or it just happens that the swiftest crews usually race on well equiped boats? Could this be due to a desire to win on a real time basis. Or is the answer in the handicap the system that does not really equalize a slower boat?
- Status
Depends on the handicapping system,
but under the most common system (PHRF in the US), the handicap is not determined for the exact boat (e.g. FUJIMO), but for a boat design / class (e.g. a Catalina 320). Yur local PHRF fleet MAY give an adjustment for having dacron sails vs carbon fiber or a roller furler vs hank-on or tuff-luff, but some local PHRF fleets rate fin keels the same as wing and shoal draft keels while some locations give a credit for these go slow options. Some handicap systems (like Americap and MORC) measure individual boats and determine the handicap for your exact boat. However, a fair bottom, good sails, low stretch lines, etc will still make a difference that will not be captured by the handicapper. Therefore, boat prep and good equipment will give an advantage to one boat over another. However, if the boat is poorly sailed or goes the wrong way, NO handicap will make it a winner. Steve Alchemist C-320 #909
but under the most common system (PHRF in the US), the handicap is not determined for the exact boat (e.g. FUJIMO), but for a boat design / class (e.g. a Catalina 320). Yur local PHRF fleet MAY give an adjustment for having dacron sails vs carbon fiber or a roller furler vs hank-on or tuff-luff, but some local PHRF fleets rate fin keels the same as wing and shoal draft keels while some locations give a credit for these go slow options. Some handicap systems (like Americap and MORC) measure individual boats and determine the handicap for your exact boat. However, a fair bottom, good sails, low stretch lines, etc will still make a difference that will not be captured by the handicapper. Therefore, boat prep and good equipment will give an advantage to one boat over another. However, if the boat is poorly sailed or goes the wrong way, NO handicap will make it a winner. Steve Alchemist C-320 #909
PHRF
Typically, the better crews sail on better equipped, more competitive boats. The penalty for things like 3DL sails are usually not enough to offset the gains. The biggest issue with boats new to racing is multifold. It's usually a combination of crew, speed of sail changes and or getting up to speed after tacks, gybes and rounding, which can be attributed to a well trained crew. Sail performance and more experienced tacticians as well as better sail trim methods also determine the winners from the losers regardless of Handicaps. Case in point, a boat that sail high will sometimes lull the driver into thinking that sailing high but slower (almost to the point of luffing) will give him a better VMG while the more experienced boat might fall off ten points and make a knot or two more and actually make better VMG to the mark. While boat A is making decent speed right at the edge of pinching, boat B is running away while tacking off slightly. It's a complicated game to be sure and it usually takes a crew a couple of seasons to get really fast and in tune with exactly what their boat will do.
Typically, the better crews sail on better equipped, more competitive boats. The penalty for things like 3DL sails are usually not enough to offset the gains. The biggest issue with boats new to racing is multifold. It's usually a combination of crew, speed of sail changes and or getting up to speed after tacks, gybes and rounding, which can be attributed to a well trained crew. Sail performance and more experienced tacticians as well as better sail trim methods also determine the winners from the losers regardless of Handicaps. Case in point, a boat that sail high will sometimes lull the driver into thinking that sailing high but slower (almost to the point of luffing) will give him a better VMG while the more experienced boat might fall off ten points and make a knot or two more and actually make better VMG to the mark. While boat A is making decent speed right at the edge of pinching, boat B is running away while tacking off slightly. It's a complicated game to be sure and it usually takes a crew a couple of seasons to get really fast and in tune with exactly what their boat will do.
OD
Sure, if ya can afford the price tag for OD racing. There's a new OD called FT-10 for Flying Tiger 10 meter that's very interesting. However, it's still 40K for a toy that you definately are not gonna cruise in, not even for an overnighter. Now, if ya want something like a Soling, well, that's over 200K. Some peeps have the pockets for this, not me.
Sure, if ya can afford the price tag for OD racing. There's a new OD called FT-10 for Flying Tiger 10 meter that's very interesting. However, it's still 40K for a toy that you definately are not gonna cruise in, not even for an overnighter. Now, if ya want something like a Soling, well, that's over 200K. Some peeps have the pockets for this, not me.
One design racing
Most all of my racing experience has been with one design match races where all boats "should" be equal, however adding trick stuff to the boat always helps if it is sailed well. I have found that learning what makes your boat sail it's best in any given situation with the gear on board and a crew that is willing and ready is always a better race tool than adding all that neat trick stuff. Case in point: racing in a non spinnaker class, I found it quicker for me to stay with a 110 Genny instead of doing a sail change to a 150 on the downwind leg, beating the boats that slowed down to do a sail change....Yes they were faster once they had their sails up, but we were so far ahead, their greater speed didn't do them any good, I still beat them around the mark....
Most all of my racing experience has been with one design match races where all boats "should" be equal, however adding trick stuff to the boat always helps if it is sailed well. I have found that learning what makes your boat sail it's best in any given situation with the gear on board and a crew that is willing and ready is always a better race tool than adding all that neat trick stuff. Case in point: racing in a non spinnaker class, I found it quicker for me to stay with a 110 Genny instead of doing a sail change to a 150 on the downwind leg, beating the boats that slowed down to do a sail change....Yes they were faster once they had their sails up, but we were so far ahead, their greater speed didn't do them any good, I still beat them around the mark....
Upgrades...
Just as an example- PBO rigging and stripped halyards... you'll lose about 30-50lbs (or more) aloft. Anybody remember what the formula for Lbs aloft vs. Lbs on deck? PHRF assumes you have your boat race ready, which means: new sails, light rig, stripped (within the rules) interior, cans instead of bottles, shoes and gloves only, bucket instead of head, etc... Which is part of why racing has become a sport for those with deep pockets, there is just no way to make allowances for older or lesser quality equipment. It isn't a perfect system, but it's supposed to be fun
One design gets better, but it's rare that a class actually weighs/measures each boat and crew- so it all goes back to the same type of thing... All this being said, it is possible to purchase a "race-able" boat for about 15,000--- then spend another $15-20K getting it ready to win, all in all getting you around the course fast for under $50K. B
Just as an example- PBO rigging and stripped halyards... you'll lose about 30-50lbs (or more) aloft. Anybody remember what the formula for Lbs aloft vs. Lbs on deck? PHRF assumes you have your boat race ready, which means: new sails, light rig, stripped (within the rules) interior, cans instead of bottles, shoes and gloves only, bucket instead of head, etc... Which is part of why racing has become a sport for those with deep pockets, there is just no way to make allowances for older or lesser quality equipment. It isn't a perfect system, but it's supposed to be fun
One design gets better, but it's rare that a class actually weighs/measures each boat and crew- so it all goes back to the same type of thing... All this being said, it is possible to purchase a "race-able" boat for about 15,000--- then spend another $15-20K getting it ready to win, all in all getting you around the course fast for under $50K. B
Bill how big a boat are you considering
All of my standing rigging weighs less than forty pounds and my halyards don't weigh ten,on a thirty footer that has been set up for cruising. Considering that at least one half of the weight is below the spreaders I doubt that I have more than twenty pounds at the mast head. Even if you reduce that to the smallest posible line sizes you won't cut more than ten pounds.
All of my standing rigging weighs less than forty pounds and my halyards don't weigh ten,on a thirty footer that has been set up for cruising. Considering that at least one half of the weight is below the spreaders I doubt that I have more than twenty pounds at the mast head. Even if you reduce that to the smallest posible line sizes you won't cut more than ten pounds.
Not to get fussy, but...
Hey Ross, all this being in good fun- If you told a serious racer that he could lose, let's say 15 lbs (as a compromise) above deck level, he'd hire you as his boat manager and ask where else he could lose weight. 10 lbs aloft = several times that at deck level. Cool discussion, B Btw- Moving to PBO rigging often results in one less body on the rail to keep the boat upright, which means he/she can be doing something else- same reason people started buying carbon sticks
Hey Ross, all this being in good fun
- If you told a serious racer that he could lose, let's say 15 lbs (as a compromise) above deck level, he'd hire you as his boat manager and ask where else he could lose weight. 10 lbs aloft = several times that at deck level. Cool discussion, B Btw- Moving to PBO rigging often results in one less body on the rail to keep the boat upright, which means he/she can be doing something else- same reason people started buying carbon sticksBasics
"...I would like to understand why is so much money spent on racing sails, lines and equipment when the competitive edge gained should be neutralized by an updated handicap penalty. I have also observed from race results that well equiped boats usually win the races with very rarely an entry level boat being the winner. Is the equipment making the difference or it just happens that the swiftest crews usually race on well equiped boats?
"...I would like to understand why is so much money spent on racing sails, lines and equipment when the competitive edge gained should be neutralized by an updated handicap penalty. I have also observed from race results that well equiped boats usually win the races with very rarely an entry level boat being the winner. Is the equipment making the difference or it just happens that the swiftest crews usually race on well equiped boats?
Basics
You said, "...I would like to understand why is so much money spent on racing sails, lines and equipment when the competitive edge gained should be neutralized by an updated handicap penalty." It's a fair question to ask, and the answer has been touched on by previous respondents: Usually, handicaps are assigned to specific models of boats, not to individual boats. Then every boat of that model will have the same basic handicap, at least in that geographic region or local racing authority. Some additional equipment can push that handicap up or down - for example, adding a folding prop will lower the handicap, but adding a roller furled headsail will increase it. Many go-fast(er) modifications do not usually affect the handicap either way - for example, having line-adjustable genoa cars on tracks. It is assumed that a given handicap assigned for a specific boat model represents the capability of that boat in well-prepared condition and sailed by an experienced and capable crew. However, since handicaps are also assigned and modified based on past performances of the given model, faster, hotter boats are more likely to have had more capable crews. Thus, the handicap assigned to a slow family cruiser is inevitably going to reflect the fact that on the average it is usually not crewed to the same level of expertise. So a great crew on a "slow" boat can sometimes beat a so-so crew on a "fast" boat when their times are adjusted for handicaps. Additionally, weather conditions come into play - some boats tend to do their best in heavy air, others perform better in lighter conditions. You also said, "I have also observed from race results that well equiped boats usually win the races with very rarely an entry level boat being the winner. Is the equipment making the difference or it just happens that the swiftest crews usually race on well equiped boats?" It doesn't "just happen" that good crews are found on fast boats. Part of good skippering is recruiting and attracting good crew, especially in the hotter and more competitive classes. Another part of good skippering is making sure the boat is prepped out - you will find that the winning boats usually don't have extraneous weight on board, do have smooth, clean, fair bottoms and underwater foils, do have small modifications that make maneuvering, trimming, etc. more efficient, do have the rig tuned very specifically for the conditions, do have weight distributed properly, and so on. AND, perhaps just as important as any other factor, the skipper and crew have experience. They understand good race strategy and tactics and are always trying to learn even more. An entry level boat that has so-so sails, a bottom that hasn't been cleaned for a while, a crew that isn't too focused, a rig that is tuned "about right", extra gear (weight) on board, and a skipper who figures that stuff doesn't make much difference anyway and doesn't pay much attention to wind shifts is very unlikely to run up front unless the competition is the same or worse.
You said, "...I would like to understand why is so much money spent on racing sails, lines and equipment when the competitive edge gained should be neutralized by an updated handicap penalty." It's a fair question to ask, and the answer has been touched on by previous respondents: Usually, handicaps are assigned to specific models of boats, not to individual boats. Then every boat of that model will have the same basic handicap, at least in that geographic region or local racing authority. Some additional equipment can push that handicap up or down - for example, adding a folding prop will lower the handicap, but adding a roller furled headsail will increase it. Many go-fast(er) modifications do not usually affect the handicap either way - for example, having line-adjustable genoa cars on tracks. It is assumed that a given handicap assigned for a specific boat model represents the capability of that boat in well-prepared condition and sailed by an experienced and capable crew. However, since handicaps are also assigned and modified based on past performances of the given model, faster, hotter boats are more likely to have had more capable crews. Thus, the handicap assigned to a slow family cruiser is inevitably going to reflect the fact that on the average it is usually not crewed to the same level of expertise. So a great crew on a "slow" boat can sometimes beat a so-so crew on a "fast" boat when their times are adjusted for handicaps. Additionally, weather conditions come into play - some boats tend to do their best in heavy air, others perform better in lighter conditions. You also said, "I have also observed from race results that well equiped boats usually win the races with very rarely an entry level boat being the winner. Is the equipment making the difference or it just happens that the swiftest crews usually race on well equiped boats?" It doesn't "just happen" that good crews are found on fast boats. Part of good skippering is recruiting and attracting good crew, especially in the hotter and more competitive classes. Another part of good skippering is making sure the boat is prepped out - you will find that the winning boats usually don't have extraneous weight on board, do have smooth, clean, fair bottoms and underwater foils, do have small modifications that make maneuvering, trimming, etc. more efficient, do have the rig tuned very specifically for the conditions, do have weight distributed properly, and so on. AND, perhaps just as important as any other factor, the skipper and crew have experience. They understand good race strategy and tactics and are always trying to learn even more. An entry level boat that has so-so sails, a bottom that hasn't been cleaned for a while, a crew that isn't too focused, a rig that is tuned "about right", extra gear (weight) on board, and a skipper who figures that stuff doesn't make much difference anyway and doesn't pay much attention to wind shifts is very unlikely to run up front unless the competition is the same or worse.
Racing trim
A couple of things: hman, when racing against less than knowledgeable sailors you made the right choice to go downwind with a smaller headsail. However, changing headsails either up or down wind should NEVER leave you 'headless'. Any descent racer would do a peel which means putting up the second headsail before removing the first. In that situation your smaller headsail would have been a distinct disadvantage and the outcome would have been very different. Ross, you are wrong about the weight savings and the performance gain by reducing it. I replaced the steel wire backstay with its associated hardware with V12 and removed 20lbs. The CE of that weight was 30' off the water producing a righting moment of 600ftlbs. A 200lb crew member sitting on the rail produces maybe 800lbs of righting. That is JUST the backstay gain. Multiply that by upper and lower shrouds and you begin to see the difference. Weight aloft is a serious thief of performance. The higher it is the greater its affect. Racers don't like to spend money any more than anyone else, but considering the cost of a race boat the cost of minimizing weight is a small one when your goal is to win. As for handicap systems: yes they are intended to try and level the playing field. But they all have their drawbacks. If you limit the difference in ratings for any given division the disparity is kept to a minimum. Of course the better sailors will tend to sail on the faster boats because they are better prepared and the crews tend to be more competent. I would hate to crew on a boat and do my best for the sake of the boat only to have some crew members negate my efforts because they don't do their job properly.
A couple of things: hman, when racing against less than knowledgeable sailors you made the right choice to go downwind with a smaller headsail. However, changing headsails either up or down wind should NEVER leave you 'headless'. Any descent racer would do a peel which means putting up the second headsail before removing the first. In that situation your smaller headsail would have been a distinct disadvantage and the outcome would have been very different. Ross, you are wrong about the weight savings and the performance gain by reducing it. I replaced the steel wire backstay with its associated hardware with V12 and removed 20lbs. The CE of that weight was 30' off the water producing a righting moment of 600ftlbs. A 200lb crew member sitting on the rail produces maybe 800lbs of righting. That is JUST the backstay gain. Multiply that by upper and lower shrouds and you begin to see the difference. Weight aloft is a serious thief of performance. The higher it is the greater its affect. Racers don't like to spend money any more than anyone else, but considering the cost of a race boat the cost of minimizing weight is a small one when your goal is to win. As for handicap systems: yes they are intended to try and level the playing field. But they all have their drawbacks. If you limit the difference in ratings for any given division the disparity is kept to a minimum. Of course the better sailors will tend to sail on the faster boats because they are better prepared and the crews tend to be more competent. I would hate to crew on a boat and do my best for the sake of the boat only to have some crew members negate my efforts because they don't do their job properly.
We always peel when we go from
the Genny to the Chute on the yatch I race on. Same with going from Spin back to Genoa.
the Genny to the Chute on the yatch I race on. Same with going from Spin back to Genoa.
very good dicussion
All the previous posts are very good, one thing or two I might add: Racing PRF, LORC etc there is one more game being played, you start considering whose boats to penalize, example, you might not cover a boat who owes you time and instead concentrate on a boat you owe time to giving dirt or at least keep yourself between him and the mark. Regarding weight aloft I cannot remember the exact formula I remember it was scary enough to make me strip the mast of all unused alyards, wires, light bulbs etc. If someone has the formula I would like to get it again BTW. After this being said, racing level is really the only way to go if you are serious. By that I mean forget comforth, forget ruff bottom paint, forget cruising with the boat. Regarding Prep, I raced J24 and 105, we dry sailed these boats in order to save the ~75lb the hull would gain if left in the drink more then a few days. We also long board sanded the hull and faired the keel to exact mesurement to avouid water detachment from the foil. The last year I competitively campained the J24 at provincial level the boat was 17k$ and campaining came to about $10K for the season. One last thing, We had 3 suits of sails on the boat the brand new one would never be taken out if one of my regular crew was missing: Missing a tack would blow the sail shape and anyway sailng fast in the wrong direction is an oxymorion. A new set will allow you to point maybe 4 pts higher, that will not make the diffence if you cannot tack, cannot judge the course or if the boat is not prep properly. So what am I doing looking for an O'day 23~25? Well I would like to find just a few more Oday like mine in the area where I plan to "cruise" and... LOL Am I making sense here? a.
All the previous posts are very good, one thing or two I might add: Racing PRF, LORC etc there is one more game being played, you start considering whose boats to penalize, example, you might not cover a boat who owes you time and instead concentrate on a boat you owe time to giving dirt or at least keep yourself between him and the mark. Regarding weight aloft I cannot remember the exact formula I remember it was scary enough to make me strip the mast of all unused alyards, wires, light bulbs etc. If someone has the formula I would like to get it again BTW. After this being said, racing level is really the only way to go if you are serious. By that I mean forget comforth, forget ruff bottom paint, forget cruising with the boat. Regarding Prep, I raced J24 and 105, we dry sailed these boats in order to save the ~75lb the hull would gain if left in the drink more then a few days. We also long board sanded the hull and faired the keel to exact mesurement to avouid water detachment from the foil. The last year I competitively campained the J24 at provincial level the boat was 17k$ and campaining came to about $10K for the season. One last thing, We had 3 suits of sails on the boat the brand new one would never be taken out if one of my regular crew was missing: Missing a tack would blow the sail shape and anyway sailng fast in the wrong direction is an oxymorion. A new set will allow you to point maybe 4 pts higher, that will not make the diffence if you cannot tack, cannot judge the course or if the boat is not prep properly. So what am I doing looking for an O'day 23~25? Well I would like to find just a few more Oday like mine in the area where I plan to "cruise" and... LOL Am I making sense here? a.
- Status