Hualing boat out in the next couple weeks to replace the cutlass bearing. As I plan on dropping the rudder I am seeking a solution to reinforce the post. Installed a new rudder a couple years ago (the only rocks in FL sea bed and I nailed them!) but it came a little too long, hence the tiller deck cover was not reinstalled and I could see the top of the rudder post lean from one side to the other as I turned the wheel. Any tested fixes out there? Thanks, Ken
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Bearing problem.
Ken, you are saying the rudder bearing is bad? That you see the top of the post moving side to side? My 1979 has no side movement when I try from the bottom(it is still on the cradle). But I have never watched it with the tiller plate off. Your post also states that you have a new rudder. The first order of business would be to glass in a new bearing. That topic was covered somewhere but where? Maybe the archives? Basically you get a piece of pipe the size of your rudder post and simply add a resin mix to the post hole. Then grind away until you get a good fit with the pipe. Put the rudder back in with a good teflon grease. I am working on the second part, doubling the thickness of those plywood rudder supports. I am doing both the horizontal bearing support and the two vertical sides. Just using epoxy and screws and tabbing with some cloth. There is a third thing that I have not seen discussed. I have wondered if there is a size of stainless tubing that would fit snugly inside the original post. But maybe it is better that the rudder break than rip out the stern!
Let us know how it turns out.
Ken, you are saying the rudder bearing is bad? That you see the top of the post moving side to side? My 1979 has no side movement when I try from the bottom(it is still on the cradle). But I have never watched it with the tiller plate off. Your post also states that you have a new rudder. The first order of business would be to glass in a new bearing. That topic was covered somewhere but where? Maybe the archives? Basically you get a piece of pipe the size of your rudder post and simply add a resin mix to the post hole. Then grind away until you get a good fit with the pipe. Put the rudder back in with a good teflon grease. I am working on the second part, doubling the thickness of those plywood rudder supports. I am doing both the horizontal bearing support and the two vertical sides. Just using epoxy and screws and tabbing with some cloth. There is a third thing that I have not seen discussed. I have wondered if there is a size of stainless tubing that would fit snugly inside the original post. But maybe it is better that the rudder break than rip out the stern!
Let us know how it turns out.Some thoughts
Ken, I have just been down that road myself. On my boat the shelf or strongback that supports the upper rudder bearing had all but disolved due to delamination of the plywood from water damage - leaking toe rail, I think. The rudder had suspicious cracks and was very wet as well. I ordered a new rudder from Foss Foam and cut out the strongback this winter. It was a nasty little job glassing in a new one - the lazarette is a tight spot for a two hundred plus pounder like me - but it is done now. The replacement strongback was made of 3/4" marine ply, glassed both sides with 8 oz cloth in epoxy. This piece was then bonded in place with six layers of 10 oz tape along the hull and epoxy fillets and one layer of 10 oz tape along the two vertical supports. (Did I mention that the strongback was originally installed before the deck was on, necessitating cutting out the centre brace in the lazarette opening? More glasswork...) So, now comes reinstalling the rudder. The bottom bearing in my boat is simply fiberglass, layed up at time of manufacture. There didn't seem to be much play here. The only way to rebuild this bearing that I can think of is to use the epoxy/graphite injection technique described in the Gougeon Bros. (West Epoxy) publication entitled "Repairing Fiberglass Boats". Luckily, I didn't have to go this route. The upper bearing is UHMD or nylon or similar and is bolted to the strongback. This is where all the play was in mine, prior to the repairs. However, the bearing itself was not very worn - its pretty tough stuff - rather, the bearing's mounting to the strongback had got sloppy due to the delamination. Also the bolts were undersized (1/4"), further worsening the sloppiness. When I installed the bearing on the new strongback, I bedded the bearing in 3M 4200 and used 3/8" bolts. I hope this will prevent any future movement of the bearing on the strongback. To sum up: If the top of the rudderpost is moving around a lot underway, the problem is probably at the upper bearing. The upper bearing could worn or its mounting sloppy. If there is play at the lower bearing (which should be evident by pushing on the rudder blade when the boat is hauled out)then an epoxy/graphite injection repair is indicated. I feel that the strongback structure, if in good condition, is adequate, as built by Hunter. Pay particular attention to the mounting of the UHMD bearing itself. Good luck! Jim Legere S/V CALYPSO Halifax, Nova Scotia
Ken, I have just been down that road myself. On my boat the shelf or strongback that supports the upper rudder bearing had all but disolved due to delamination of the plywood from water damage - leaking toe rail, I think. The rudder had suspicious cracks and was very wet as well. I ordered a new rudder from Foss Foam and cut out the strongback this winter. It was a nasty little job glassing in a new one - the lazarette is a tight spot for a two hundred plus pounder like me - but it is done now. The replacement strongback was made of 3/4" marine ply, glassed both sides with 8 oz cloth in epoxy. This piece was then bonded in place with six layers of 10 oz tape along the hull and epoxy fillets and one layer of 10 oz tape along the two vertical supports. (Did I mention that the strongback was originally installed before the deck was on, necessitating cutting out the centre brace in the lazarette opening? More glasswork...) So, now comes reinstalling the rudder. The bottom bearing in my boat is simply fiberglass, layed up at time of manufacture. There didn't seem to be much play here. The only way to rebuild this bearing that I can think of is to use the epoxy/graphite injection technique described in the Gougeon Bros. (West Epoxy) publication entitled "Repairing Fiberglass Boats". Luckily, I didn't have to go this route. The upper bearing is UHMD or nylon or similar and is bolted to the strongback. This is where all the play was in mine, prior to the repairs. However, the bearing itself was not very worn - its pretty tough stuff - rather, the bearing's mounting to the strongback had got sloppy due to the delamination. Also the bolts were undersized (1/4"), further worsening the sloppiness. When I installed the bearing on the new strongback, I bedded the bearing in 3M 4200 and used 3/8" bolts. I hope this will prevent any future movement of the bearing on the strongback. To sum up: If the top of the rudderpost is moving around a lot underway, the problem is probably at the upper bearing. The upper bearing could worn or its mounting sloppy. If there is play at the lower bearing (which should be evident by pushing on the rudder blade when the boat is hauled out)then an epoxy/graphite injection repair is indicated. I feel that the strongback structure, if in good condition, is adequate, as built by Hunter. Pay particular attention to the mounting of the UHMD bearing itself. Good luck! Jim Legere S/V CALYPSO Halifax, Nova Scotia
Stainless Fastners in Aluminum
If your helm is a wheel and quadrant type and it hasn't been apart in a while it would be a good idea to ensure all the stainless fastners are removable prior to being hauled out. Typically the fastners become galvinized to the aluminum casting and one has to perform work-arounds to remedy the problem. Working on the problems now would save time and lay-days in the yard. During reassembly recommend the use of LanoCote (Forespar, link below) or Never Seze (sp?, West Marine), or equal on the stainless fastners.
If your helm is a wheel and quadrant type and it hasn't been apart in a while it would be a good idea to ensure all the stainless fastners are removable prior to being hauled out. Typically the fastners become galvinized to the aluminum casting and one has to perform work-arounds to remedy the problem. Working on the problems now would save time and lay-days in the yard. During reassembly recommend the use of LanoCote (Forespar, link below) or Never Seze (sp?, West Marine), or equal on the stainless fastners.
Similar Repair
Ken: I executed a repair very similar to Jim Legere's when I purchased my '82 3 years ago. The "strongback" (now I know what it's called) was delaminating, and the nylon block was obviously loose. I took a shortcut, however, placing one inch thick mahogany (for looks) boards on both sides of the nylon block, and a larger single board below the strongback with a cutout for the shaft in it (with the rudder out a hole would do), and Gougeoned and through-bolted the boards together to sandwich the original plywood together without removing it. This stabilized the area and gave support to the bearing block in the side-to-side directions. I could have blocked the bearing off in the fore-and-aft directions as well but this didn't seem as necessary. I reinstalled my rudder this spring after adding 3 inches to its' "nose" for greater control, and wrapping the whole thing in two layers of glass and epoxy (lots of horizontal cracks visible in the gelcoat). I was encouraged by the availability and price of a replacement rudder to experiment with the existing one. My observations on the bearing construction were as Jim describes them. If your strongback is not too far gone, it may work well for you to take an alternative route to hold the rudder in place. Good luck!
Ken: I executed a repair very similar to Jim Legere's when I purchased my '82 3 years ago. The "strongback" (now I know what it's called) was delaminating, and the nylon block was obviously loose. I took a shortcut, however, placing one inch thick mahogany (for looks) boards on both sides of the nylon block, and a larger single board below the strongback with a cutout for the shaft in it (with the rudder out a hole would do), and Gougeoned and through-bolted the boards together to sandwich the original plywood together without removing it. This stabilized the area and gave support to the bearing block in the side-to-side directions. I could have blocked the bearing off in the fore-and-aft directions as well but this didn't seem as necessary. I reinstalled my rudder this spring after adding 3 inches to its' "nose" for greater control, and wrapping the whole thing in two layers of glass and epoxy (lots of horizontal cracks visible in the gelcoat). I was encouraged by the availability and price of a replacement rudder to experiment with the existing one. My observations on the bearing construction were as Jim describes them. If your strongback is not too far gone, it may work well for you to take an alternative route to hold the rudder in place. Good luck!
Taking it out tomarrow
Thanks for the replys. Setting sail tommarow for the haul out yard. Will request blocking the boat up as high as possible to minimize the depth of the hole I have to dig to drop the rudder. Last time it almost sat on its keel and the soil there is mostly shells, rough digging! Will repost updates with new tittle, thanks again, Ken DeLacy
Thanks for the replys. Setting sail tommarow for the haul out yard. Will request blocking the boat up as high as possible to minimize the depth of the hole I have to dig to drop the rudder. Last time it almost sat on its keel and the soil there is mostly shells, rough digging! Will repost updates with new tittle, thanks again, Ken DeLacy
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