Halyard ends... 580R? 721-2? Sheet material?

dlochner · Jan 1, 2021

What kind of boat do you have?

Claude L.-Auger · Jan 1, 2021

dlochner said:
What kind of boat do you have?

An answer to Dave's question will help everyone on site come up with suggestions as far as what you're looking for for sheets and halyards. Lots of experienced sailors here but we need more info to be able to offer some help. A whip is a way to secure the end of a line to prevent it from unraveling. You can do it yourself easily. See pics from Google. 580-R and 721-2 are styles of shackles.

FastOlson · Jan 1, 2021

David Walsh said:
Hi All,

I'm looking at getting to running rigging and I was looking at the manual and I see a reference I don't know.

My Main Halyard should 3/8", XLS(?), 84' long with a whip on one end and a "580R" on the other end? My Jib Halyard is similar except the end has a "721-2".

I see that line now is described as XLS3 so I assume that's a child of XLS. My other sheets require "TRO" and I have no clue what that is. These were probably popular connectors in the late 1980's.

Any popular suggestions on what type of line I should use and which end connector to go with?

Thanks for your time!

David

You can put text into your "signature line" here. Please put in model & year of boat, aux. power, and where you sail. This helps others to help you with more focused answers.

kloudie1 · Jan 1, 2021

XLS=Xtra low stretch.. Sampson, New England and a few others have this stuff .. Available on the site store here.. The other numbers are probably part numbers for the shackles..
EDIT: the other Claude beat me to the post.

Sailfanatic · Jan 1, 2021

With the newer low stretch line, you can go down a size for your halyards. See below lines for a Pearson 31-2 as example. If your existing shackles are in good condition, I would re-use them, attach them with a halyard hitch, the benefit being you can later easily move th ehshackle if/when the halyard begins to fray.

shemandr · Jan 1, 2021

I don't know cordage well enough to give you an Rx. But I looked at the Samson XLS webpage where the stretch characteristic of the XLS in listed. While at the 10% of breaking strength the stretch is around 1%, which is good. But at 30% of breaking strength the stretch is over 3%. For reference that's about 3' for a 100 ' halyard which is around a typical length. You would have to tension that halyard to 1,200 lbs to see that kind of stretch. I don't think you could do that. But you could go over the 400 lbs. for the 10% or maybe even 800 lbs for the 20%.
I hate stretchy halyards! They affect the boats performance in several ways. If a puff hits and the halyard stretches the sail can deeper increasing the heel of the boat and slowing it down. In addition the draft will move aft making the sail stall - again slowing it down. Most of us drive better with the depth of draft forward a little bit to make a more forgiving shape and a wider groove. Only the better helmspersons can drive a draft aft shape (Finer entry) well. Not to mention not wanting to luff the boat when it's obvious the halyard isn't tight enough. And at some point you can't physically crank on more tension.
Modern cordage technology rivals wire halyards. Do you think wire stretches 10%?

XLS3 - Samson Rope

Cruising sailors who desire optimal performance will appreciate the low-stretch polyester construction and long life of the cover over a polyester core.

www.samsonrope.com

dlochner · Jan 1, 2021

Thanks for the boat info.

The data sheet is from 1987, since then there have been many improvements in line technology.

Some general comments.

Stretch is a big concern on lines that are under tension and will be trimmed infrequently, specifically, halyards are typically not tensioned once the sail is hoisted, this is a good place for a high tech low stretch line, for cruisers, a line line New England Ropes VCP. This line is a combination of a polyester cover with a high tech core. Less stretch than an all polyester line, less money than a pure high tech line.

Sheets are frequently adjusted and although jib sheets are long, the distance between clew and the winch is typically fairly short when the line under the most tension, that is close to the wind. A comfortable feel to the line is more important than stretch. Trophy Braid, aka, fuzzy braid is a good choice.

Using low stretch lines often means the line can be down sized one size with the same strength, however, clutches may not hold the line as well resulting in the line slipping through the clutch when tensioned. Sort of defeats the purpose of spending the extra money for the low stretch line.

Shackles can be reused if they are in good shape and you like them. Because the manufacturer specified a particular shackle, it does not mean you have continue using them. Choices in hardware by the builder are often dictated by cost. Captive pin shackles are cheaper than the nice Wichard headboard screw shackles or a Tylaska. If you have a captive pin headboard shackle, get a different one, you'll be happier. If you reuse the shackle, it can be tied on or some riggers will splice in your old shackle if you send it to them.

General guidance on sheet length is 1.5 times the boat length for jib/Genoa sheets, 2 times boat length for spinnaker sheets.

The SBO store here can help you short this out and give you a decent price. Contact @Dave Groshong

Dave Groshong · Jan 1, 2021

Our rig shop offers a lot of different shackles, from what I call the utility Ronstan headboard shackles that are inexpensive, but effective, up to the Tylaska fancy deluxe stuff and everywhere in between. Our Rigging Calculator offers these, and snap shackles for spinnaker halyards. Our Rigging Builder gives you a wider selection and gives you more freedom to use your own specs if desired.

Ronstan Halyard Shackles

shop.sailboatowners.com

Tylaska Halyard Shackles

shop.sailboatowners.com

Wichard Captive Pin Thimble Shackles

shop.sailboatowners.com

SailboatOwners.com search

shop.sailboatowners.com

We sell mostly Samson XLS3, a great all around yacht braid, also MLX3 if you want a Dyneema line.

I'm always happy to help if you have questions.

Claude L.-Auger · Jan 1, 2021

David Walsh said:
Hi, Its for an O'Day 302

Also, Claude why would need a specific shackle?

Main sail halyards are quite frequently using a shackle with a screwed in or slip in pin, normally sturdier and less prone to breakage than the opening shackles locked with a spring loaded pin quite often found on jibs.

Hunter216 · Jan 1, 2021

@David Walsh

You might also consider using a soft shackle to an eye splice on your jib sheets. Fun projects!

Scott T-Bird · Jan 2, 2021

The short answer is that you don't have to replace these articles in kind. XLS rope is the economy stuff and the shackles probably are, too. You can make any alteration you like. Only your pocketbook may define your appetite. Generally speaking, the less stretch the better in halyards. The less weight the better, too. Sheets and control lines are usually selected based on hand comfort, resistance to "hockles", strength, stretch, etc. If you have line clutches, blocks or cleats that have specific line size restrictions, pay attention to that, but it generally shouldn't be a problem. Your line sizes should be anything from 5/16" (8 mm) to 7/16" (12 mm). I think you wouldn't have any use for 1/4" line or 1/2" line, either. Maybe 1/2" line if you like the feel of it for main sheet.

Selecting line material and sizing can be very complicated because of the availability and the costs. I've used a spreadsheet to make comparisons because there are so many alternatives to choose from (right now my spreadsheet is outdated because products often change or are modified). You can have the line ends whipped, splices made and shackles installed for a price, or you can do all that yourself. It is entirely up to you. I would never use metal shackles at the clew of the head sails. That is far too dangerous if the sail is flogging and you don't have control of it.

Hunter216 · Jan 2, 2021

Scott T-Bird said:
I would never use metal shackles at the clew of the head sails. That is far too dangerous if the sail is flogging and you don't have control of it.

Tally Ho · Jan 2, 2021

If you have an owners manual for your 302, it should include a chart of the running rigging sizes, lengths and how the ends are finished. You could also measure the old ones (but not if you plan to use it as a messenger) or calculate length based on mast height, distance to cockpit, etc.

I got a new main halyard for Christmas from this site. I went up a size in diameter as the old one seemed a bit undersized for the rope clutch. I also added a few feet in length as I want to be able to route the halyard to one of my primary winches for cranking me up the mast with my Milwaukee right-angle drill And winch bit...need the 2-speed winch to get my fat butt up in the air.

Also, if you get a shackle like this, you won’t need to buy a new one next time you replace the main halyard...just it with an eye splice and you can remove the retaining pin to fit it on the halyard.

Greg

shemandr · Jan 2, 2021

Going by a boat's manual may leave you with oversized line and not have you taking advantage of new cordage technology. Measuring the existing line works but if the line has been around a while it may not be diameter it started out as. I believe it's best to design your running rigging. Find out what the loads are. Then work backwards towards getting the line that fits you needs the best,

markvannote · Jan 4, 2021

David Walsh said:
Hi All,

I'm looking at getting to running rigging and I was looking at the manual and I see a reference I don't know.

My Main Halyard should 3/8", XLS(?), 84' long with a whip on one end and a "580R" on the other end? My Jib Halyard is similar except the end has a "721-2".

I see that line now is described as XLS3 so I assume that's a child of XLS. My other sheets require "TRO" and I have no clue what that is. These were probably popular connectors in the late 1980's.

Any popular suggestions on what type of line I should use and which end connector to go with?

Thanks for your time!

David

David,

Some good comments above. XLS was one of Samson's Polyester cored ropes which you can find through them or other manufacturers. XLS3 is the newer version for them. Sta-Set is New England Ropes' version. For something like main and jib halyards bumping up to a blend (core will be a mix of poly and something like Dyneema, Vectran or Technora) may be a good option for stretch and potentially reducing diameter. MLX3 (Samson) and VPC (NER) are examples. Every rope manufacturer will have their take on it and they should all be fine. As someone, or ones, mentioned above using a higher tech line on something static like a halyard is a good idea. If you do downsize check to make sure that diameter works with any hardware like rope clutches or winch self-tailers.

The shackles you have listed are either old Merriman or Gibb which are no longer around. Full disclosure, I am partial to a particular brand for obvious reasons but, again, there are a lot of options for a boat like yours. Also, if you have a furler you may not have to worry about a snap shackle on your jib halyard and may be able to just attach an eye splice to an existing upper swivel shackle. Another note would be to have a reeving or flemish eye on the back end of your halyard which will make installing or servicing them easier in the future.

In general, don't be intimidated by all the different options available. You have polyester double-braid and can replace with any other polyester double-braid and blends are great for halyards if it matches your budget. All brands of shackles will have either load rating or recommended line diameter published to do your match. I would be remiss, as a "retired" rigger to not suggest supporting your local shop. They are good folks and typically know their stuff inside and out.

Hope this helps?
Thanks.
Mark

dlochner · Jan 5, 2021

David Walsh said:
Lots of great info and thanks to everyone who responded. I was concerned about downsizing and screwing up the clutches.

Now I've got to make some assumptions and choices.

Thanks Again!!

If you buy a short piece of line, say 5 feet, you could put it through the clutch to see how well it held.

Halyard ends... 580R? 721-2? Sheet material?

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