Great picture of Windswept I John, thanks. I thought I would start a new thread since the original was entitled "running backstays". What is everyone's thoughts on using the midstay for a stormsail? Better yet how about one or two sets of reefing cringles in the current staysail? Can the sail handle it? Or should we buy stormsails of heavier cloth? What about the rigging, is the 1/4" wire midstay up to the task? Since my staysail is currently hanked on it seems logical to use the midstay for a stormsail. Maybe JC-II has some ideas for the old cutter-rig. Update: Ed A. is thinking of ATN's "Gale Sail" maybe(Related Link). So where best to use it, over the forestay or over the inner stay? I guess I should read more about the use of a stormsail. I have only practiced heaving-to with a reefed main. I think the Caribbean Rally org. requires a stormsail as part of the sail inventory.
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Ed Allen
stormsail
The storm sail will work well on the inside stay, I know that because a friend did it on his. Mine is roller furling so i cant do it, but im looking into one of the new style sails that can be wrapped over the furler, cant remember the name of that system but it allows a storm sail to be put on over the furler. I have used the staysail partially roller up with pretty fair sucess but the sail wont shape when rolled 1/2 way up.
The storm sail will work well on the inside stay, I know that because a friend did it on his. Mine is roller furling so i cant do it, but im looking into one of the new style sails that can be wrapped over the furler, cant remember the name of that system but it allows a storm sail to be put on over the furler. I have used the staysail partially roller up with pretty fair sucess but the sail wont shape when rolled 1/2 way up.
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John Livingston
I vote for stormsail
Thanks Ed, I think the storm trisail is the best idea. The heavier sail cloth, and an orange color, along with the option to rotate it (foot becoming luff, luff becoming leech) and set it in the mainsail track makes it more versatile. I think our boats with a double or triple reefed main and storm trisail or staysail on the inner stay would handle all but the absolute worse conditions, if not, we shorten to storm trisail on inner forestay. If even that proves too much we set the trisail's foot in the mainsail track sheeted to windward quarter and heave to. As I said before I haven't had a lot of time sailing her but I believe these would be good storm sailing tactics on most cutters.
Thanks Ed, I think the storm trisail is the best idea. The heavier sail cloth, and an orange color, along with the option to rotate it (foot becoming luff, luff becoming leech) and set it in the mainsail track makes it more versatile. I think our boats with a double or triple reefed main and storm trisail or staysail on the inner stay would handle all but the absolute worse conditions, if not, we shorten to storm trisail on inner forestay. If even that proves too much we set the trisail's foot in the mainsail track sheeted to windward quarter and heave to. As I said before I haven't had a lot of time sailing her but I believe these would be good storm sailing tactics on most cutters.
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Blaise Pierson
staysail
Using the staysail as a storm jib is a mistake. The last thing you want to have in heavy weather is a jib attached to a boom flailing around the foredeck. The 37 cutter is at her best not as a cutter at all. Take the staysail down along with the babystay and the runners and throw them away. This boat sails VERY well uphill with a blade and full main in 40 knots of wind. (see the picture of my boat in the photo section) It will sail well in sixty with a double reefed main and the blade, with a good crew. I bought my boat new in 1979, and we still race her hard across oceans. By the way, the 1/4 inch wire isn't up to that. I changed to 9/32 dis-contineous rod. All my mods are in my boat review.
Using the staysail as a storm jib is a mistake. The last thing you want to have in heavy weather is a jib attached to a boom flailing around the foredeck. The 37 cutter is at her best not as a cutter at all. Take the staysail down along with the babystay and the runners and throw them away. This boat sails VERY well uphill with a blade and full main in 40 knots of wind. (see the picture of my boat in the photo section) It will sail well in sixty with a double reefed main and the blade, with a good crew. I bought my boat new in 1979, and we still race her hard across oceans. By the way, the 1/4 inch wire isn't up to that. I changed to 9/32 dis-contineous rod. All my mods are in my boat review.
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Jim Legere
disagree...
Traditionalists like Lyn & Larry Pardy argue a cutter has an advantage as you shorten sail because the center of effort of the sails moves into the center of the boat, closer to the center of lateral resistance (the keel), hence better balance. Look at it this way: with a double reefed main (or trysail) and a reefed staysail (or storm jib) on the inner forestay, all the wind forces are low and centered on a cutter. A sloop with a storm jib needs more main and helm to balance the tendency to fall off the wind. I sail shorthanded with kids; my first reef is to furl the yankee. Next is one or two tucks in the main. Then a reef in the staysail and I'm good for 45 Kn +. I agree the boom on the staysail can be a liability, but it is awfully nice to have a self tacking headsail when the going gets rough. In the same vein, its nice to have those running backstays when the wind really howls - the cutter rig has much more redundancy in standing rigging; you might be able to lose a lower or even a cap shroud off the wind and still keep the stick. Of course, its not as weatherly, but every boat is compromise -Right?
Traditionalists like Lyn & Larry Pardy argue a cutter has an advantage as you shorten sail because the center of effort of the sails moves into the center of the boat, closer to the center of lateral resistance (the keel), hence better balance. Look at it this way: with a double reefed main (or trysail) and a reefed staysail (or storm jib) on the inner forestay, all the wind forces are low and centered on a cutter. A sloop with a storm jib needs more main and helm to balance the tendency to fall off the wind. I sail shorthanded with kids; my first reef is to furl the yankee. Next is one or two tucks in the main. Then a reef in the staysail and I'm good for 45 Kn +. I agree the boom on the staysail can be a liability, but it is awfully nice to have a self tacking headsail when the going gets rough. In the same vein, its nice to have those running backstays when the wind really howls - the cutter rig has much more redundancy in standing rigging; you might be able to lose a lower or even a cap shroud off the wind and still keep the stick. Of course, its not as weatherly, but every boat is compromise -Right?
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Ed Schenck
Agree and disagree.
I agree that Blaise has more experience than many H37C owners, maybe all. You can read his very well documented upgrades in the Related Link. But I disagree that the H37C should be a sloop. I wanted a cutter so I bought one. I single-hand enough in 20+ knots that the self-tacking staysail is warranted. I agree that the shrouds and inner stay should be 9/32" like the backstay. Blaise, do you have a newer forestay or are you still using the original Streamstay rod? I plan to replace the shrouds during the 2004-2005 offseason. Not sure what to do about the original furler.
I agree that Blaise has more experience than many H37C owners, maybe all. You can read his very well documented upgrades in the Related Link. But I disagree that the H37C should be a sloop. I wanted a cutter so I bought one. I single-hand enough in 20+ knots that the self-tacking staysail is warranted. I agree that the shrouds and inner stay should be 9/32" like the backstay. Blaise, do you have a newer forestay or are you still using the original Streamstay rod? I plan to replace the shrouds during the 2004-2005 offseason. Not sure what to do about the original furler.
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scott wilson
How are your running backs rigged
I've got 4 to 1 with 3/8" line runing through double blocks with a cam cleat and snap shackle to the rail on the lower block. Without remembering the details, I would describe the blocks as somewhat lightweight. A couple of times I have hardened the running stay around the "lazy" jib sheet winch, but with the cam cleat, it is difficult to release once it has been hardened with the winch. The snap shackles are great for moving the running backs forward on the rail when anchored or docked, since getting in and out of the cockpit and around the dodger is kind of a pain with the runnign backs at the rail even with the front of the cockpit. What is everyone else doing on this rigging? On the stay sail issue, I am usually short handed, and in big wind (thats 20 knts for me) the jib is furled, one reef in the main w/club footed staysail up, seems very easy with self tacking and little strength needed to adjust staysail sheet. Wife and I went with the cutter to beak up the sail area. Boat came with a approx 100 yankee and a approx 130 traditional deck sweeper genoa, the latter was used during sea trials at purchase last year, and not since. Scott
I've got 4 to 1 with 3/8" line runing through double blocks with a cam cleat and snap shackle to the rail on the lower block. Without remembering the details, I would describe the blocks as somewhat lightweight. A couple of times I have hardened the running stay around the "lazy" jib sheet winch, but with the cam cleat, it is difficult to release once it has been hardened with the winch. The snap shackles are great for moving the running backs forward on the rail when anchored or docked, since getting in and out of the cockpit and around the dodger is kind of a pain with the runnign backs at the rail even with the front of the cockpit. What is everyone else doing on this rigging? On the stay sail issue, I am usually short handed, and in big wind (thats 20 knts for me) the jib is furled, one reef in the main w/club footed staysail up, seems very easy with self tacking and little strength needed to adjust staysail sheet. Wife and I went with the cutter to beak up the sail area. Boat came with a approx 100 yankee and a approx 130 traditional deck sweeper genoa, the latter was used during sea trials at purchase last year, and not since. Scott
Adding inner staysail
I have a '74 H-25 which I am rigging for spinnaker-- pole, etc. It necessitates moving the steaming light up the spar so as not to interfere with the pole-lift block. Once I started figuring this out I realized I could fly a very short 'storm sail' from the pole-lift block, set on the eye-bolt for the pole downhual in front of the foredeck hatch. I even have an unused small-boat sail to try it with. It will hoist without a stay, reach up a little higher than the spreaders, and on a 4-ft J will come back about 3-4 ft past the base of the mast. It can sheet directly to the cabintop halyard winches. Might make a nice little motoring sail for when the awning is up on the ICW or else, with tougher dacron and slightly tougher hardware, a decent storm rig. It's worth a try. I'll go to great lengths to increase options for carrying sail. Most of the ill-trimmed boats I see are that way because operators limit themselves to what's there or what they're used to (such as a roller-furling 150-- NOT a good storm rig). The inner staysail is one of the best features of a cutter-rigged boat and those of us with sloops have plenty of reasons to envy them. JC 2
I have a '74 H-25 which I am rigging for spinnaker-- pole, etc. It necessitates moving the steaming light up the spar so as not to interfere with the pole-lift block. Once I started figuring this out I realized I could fly a very short 'storm sail' from the pole-lift block, set on the eye-bolt for the pole downhual in front of the foredeck hatch. I even have an unused small-boat sail to try it with. It will hoist without a stay, reach up a little higher than the spreaders, and on a 4-ft J will come back about 3-4 ft past the base of the mast. It can sheet directly to the cabintop halyard winches. Might make a nice little motoring sail for when the awning is up on the ICW or else, with tougher dacron and slightly tougher hardware, a decent storm rig. It's worth a try. I'll go to great lengths to increase options for carrying sail. Most of the ill-trimmed boats I see are that way because operators limit themselves to what's there or what they're used to (such as a roller-furling 150-- NOT a good storm rig). The inner staysail is one of the best features of a cutter-rigged boat and those of us with sloops have plenty of reasons to envy them. JC 2
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Ed Schenck
Scott, running backstays.
See the thread just a few days before this one. See if your questions about the running backstays are answered there.
See the thread just a few days before this one. See if your questions about the running backstays are answered there.
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Jim Legere
JC II's Staysail
JC II: I did essentially the same thing on my last boat (a Vega 27) using a wire luff storm jib shackeled to a pad eye on the foredeck - I could leave the roller furled genoa rolled up and still have good balance in a blow. Good Luck!
JC II: I did essentially the same thing on my last boat (a Vega 27) using a wire luff storm jib shackeled to a pad eye on the foredeck - I could leave the roller furled genoa rolled up and still have good balance in a blow. Good Luck!
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Yehudi
inner stormsail
Luckily, the 37C I purchased was originally a "showboat" that came with tri-sail and stormsail to be rigged on the inner stay. I have never used it 'cause the staysail has always sufficed in conditions up to 45-50 with the reef I put in. Both sails have to be 7-8 mil weight that I would highly recommend if going to the trouble of having heavy weather sails built. I rig my stormsail on the backstay when at anchor. The 37C likes to sail a bit when on the hook.
Luckily, the 37C I purchased was originally a "showboat" that came with tri-sail and stormsail to be rigged on the inner stay. I have never used it 'cause the staysail has always sufficed in conditions up to 45-50 with the reef I put in. Both sails have to be 7-8 mil weight that I would highly recommend if going to the trouble of having heavy weather sails built. I rig my stormsail on the backstay when at anchor. The 37C likes to sail a bit when on the hook.
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