I'm considering the purchase of a 1980 Hunter 27 sailboat. However, one thing I noticed in looking over this boat is that there were small cracks in the fiberglass around the keelboats, particularly the aft bolt. I was told by the owner that when the boat it sailing heeled over in stong winds, water sometimes seeps in through those bolt holes. So my questions are: Do most H27s of this age have this problem? Does it indicate a problem? I'm concerned that the keel may be slightly loose and causing the hull to flex. What is the construction of the hull at the keel attachment? Is it all fiberglass or is there a wood core? Is there anyway to assess this situation short of pulling the boat and removing the keel?
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The answer is no, but good news is
you should haul the boat anyway and have a surveyor take a look at everything under and above the waterline ( from the top of the mast to the bottom of the keel). Probable fix on the hull keel joint will require loosening the keel bolt nuts about an inch and then lifting the boat off the keel, then resealing the joint, then lower the boat and tightening the nuts. On the other hand I would try tightening the nuts first with the boat in the water (tighten each nut a little at a time) just to make sure all the bolts are still anchored into the keel. Because if there is any problem with this, you may want to take the keel off and reapirs the bolts before doing the re-seal fix. Get a survey.
you should haul the boat anyway and have a surveyor take a look at everything under and above the waterline ( from the top of the mast to the bottom of the keel). Probable fix on the hull keel joint will require loosening the keel bolt nuts about an inch and then lifting the boat off the keel, then resealing the joint, then lower the boat and tightening the nuts. On the other hand I would try tightening the nuts first with the boat in the water (tighten each nut a little at a time) just to make sure all the bolts are still anchored into the keel. Because if there is any problem with this, you may want to take the keel off and reapirs the bolts before doing the re-seal fix. Get a survey.
7/8ths inch solid fiberglass
The fiberglass at the keel bolts is solid and thick. Cracks around the bolts are not normal. Scott's advice about the survey is good. I'd have a good sailboat fiberglass man estimate the repair costs if the surveyor confirms an issue. Then take the repair costs off the price. Repairs of issues like this can be solid and lasting, so there is no need to walk away from the boat. We had some cracks at the aft end of the keel (the normal location for stress from a hard grounding) repaired on Lady Lillie, and she is good as new. David Lady Lillie
The fiberglass at the keel bolts is solid and thick. Cracks around the bolts are not normal. Scott's advice about the survey is good. I'd have a good sailboat fiberglass man estimate the repair costs if the surveyor confirms an issue. Then take the repair costs off the price. Repairs of issues like this can be solid and lasting, so there is no need to walk away from the boat. We had some cracks at the aft end of the keel (the normal location for stress from a hard grounding) repaired on Lady Lillie, and she is good as new. David Lady Lillie
If you're worried get a survey but....
I have a 78 H-27 and when I heel I get a little water in the bilge. It's not from the keel bolts but rather water that is trapped behind the stringers when the boat is level seem to drain back on a heel. If the boat was run aground theis may cause a partial fracture of the keel joint but I would suspect that anythin that was enought to damage the keel joint would show some other signs like a dent in the keel, uneve fiberglass work or other thinks out of kilter. I agree get a survey and if you're not at all sure move on to another boat. Ther are many many good old Hunters out there....at the right price.
I have a 78 H-27 and when I heel I get a little water in the bilge. It's not from the keel bolts but rather water that is trapped behind the stringers when the boat is level seem to drain back on a heel. If the boat was run aground theis may cause a partial fracture of the keel joint but I would suspect that anythin that was enought to damage the keel joint would show some other signs like a dent in the keel, uneve fiberglass work or other thinks out of kilter. I agree get a survey and if you're not at all sure move on to another boat. Ther are many many good old Hunters out there....at the right price.
Mine leaks when heeled, too
My 1981 27 also gets water when heeled. I'm pretty sure the keel just needs to be re-bedded. The 27 is built strong, but cracks should be checked by a pro.
My 1981 27 also gets water when heeled. I'm pretty sure the keel just needs to be re-bedded. The 27 is built strong, but cracks should be checked by a pro.
H27 has a solid glass hull and
Dave - as stated previously, the H27 hull is strong. I recently replaced my through-hulls, (1981 H27) and the hull is solid fiberglass, about 1" thick. There are also steel bulkhead frames at the fore and aft end of the keel area, as well as fiberglass reinforced wood in the middle of the keel. where the liner attaches to the bottom of the hull. The liner is 100% bonded for about 24" either side of centerline directly to the hull, and the keel is bolted through this sandwich. When I had my boat surveyed, the guy was surprised at how well the keel was attached to the hull. Apparently, boats this old frequently have a decent size crack between the hull/keel joint, but as David stated previously, fixing a bad joint shouldn't stop you from buying the boat, and there is plenty of good structure to re-attach it to. On another note, as someone mentioned above, there is frequently some water that gets behind the liner and only makes itself known when the boat is significantly heeled. I solved this problem by carving horizontal slots into the liner just after point where it stops being bonded to the hull. I cut 4 slots on each side using a dremel tool, and now all the bilge water ends up in the bilge, when the boat is heeled or at anchor. and it never gets into the cockpit or lockers either. Good luck! Pete Wallace
Dave - as stated previously, the H27 hull is strong. I recently replaced my through-hulls, (1981 H27) and the hull is solid fiberglass, about 1" thick. There are also steel bulkhead frames at the fore and aft end of the keel area, as well as fiberglass reinforced wood in the middle of the keel. where the liner attaches to the bottom of the hull. The liner is 100% bonded for about 24" either side of centerline directly to the hull, and the keel is bolted through this sandwich. When I had my boat surveyed, the guy was surprised at how well the keel was attached to the hull. Apparently, boats this old frequently have a decent size crack between the hull/keel joint, but as David stated previously, fixing a bad joint shouldn't stop you from buying the boat, and there is plenty of good structure to re-attach it to. On another note, as someone mentioned above, there is frequently some water that gets behind the liner and only makes itself known when the boat is significantly heeled. I solved this problem by carving horizontal slots into the liner just after point where it stops being bonded to the hull. I cut 4 slots on each side using a dremel tool, and now all the bilge water ends up in the bilge, when the boat is heeled or at anchor. and it never gets into the cockpit or lockers either. Good luck! Pete Wallace
4 slots where?
This sounds like a good idea as I'm tired of sponging out the lockers after a good sail...but could you describe further where you cut the slots or even better attach a pic? Thanks, Scott
This sounds like a good idea as I'm tired of sponging out the lockers after a good sail...but could you describe further where you cut the slots or even better attach a pic? Thanks, Scott
1000 words
Your description is excellent but some pics would be great...I don't want to start cutting and let more water in than out! Where by the way does the water under the salon berths come from? Only seems to appear after a heavy rain (or deck washing) AND being heeled up. Obviously I've got a leak somewhere which I'll go after as the source but have never quite figured out how heeling gets it in there... Thanks, Scott
Your description is excellent but some pics would be great...I don't want to start cutting and let more water in than out! Where by the way does the water under the salon berths come from? Only seems to appear after a heavy rain (or deck washing) AND being heeled up. Obviously I've got a leak somewhere which I'll go after as the source but have never quite figured out how heeling gets it in there... Thanks, Scott
salon berth water
Scott - my wife took my digital camera over the weekend, so I'll take some shots this week and get them to you. Regarding the salon berth water - my guess is that it's coming from a leak between the hull/deck joint. In my boat, I get some leaking through the bolts and stanchions along the toerail, where I think they can get behind the interior and into the storage lockers. It may also be coming from the area where the wiring passes through the lockers, which may be why it's happening a lot when you're heeled. Someone who previously owned my boat (or perhaps it's part of the manufacturing process) sprayed some expansion sealant around the wiring conduit, and this has kept my lockers pretty watertight (although I do get water once in awhile, usually after rain...) Anyways, sorry for the delay in posting pics. will do this week. Pete
Scott - my wife took my digital camera over the weekend, so I'll take some shots this week and get them to you. Regarding the salon berth water - my guess is that it's coming from a leak between the hull/deck joint. In my boat, I get some leaking through the bolts and stanchions along the toerail, where I think they can get behind the interior and into the storage lockers. It may also be coming from the area where the wiring passes through the lockers, which may be why it's happening a lot when you're heeled. Someone who previously owned my boat (or perhaps it's part of the manufacturing process) sprayed some expansion sealant around the wiring conduit, and this has kept my lockers pretty watertight (although I do get water once in awhile, usually after rain...) Anyways, sorry for the delay in posting pics. will do this week. Pete
The Outcome
Thank you all for sharing your experiences and advice. It helped a get deal in analyzing this problem. And since I started this thread, I'll share with you the outcome. I did explore the possibility of removing and resealing the keel. Since this is a job I did NOT feel comfortable doing myself, I spoke with most to the top notch boatworks shops in the area and I got a consistent estimate of $2000 minimum for this job. Well, I do like this boat, but I did not want to be saddled with a $2000 repair immediately upon purchase. I did end up getting the boat hauled out and inspected by the best surveyor in the area. It turns out that in the late 70s and 80s, he attached many of the keels on hunter sailboats. Hunter shipped the boats and keel unattached and had local shops do the final assembly. After a year, they would tighten the bolts and sometimes they would over tighten them. This appears to be the case with this boat. The cracking is in a liner that is on top of the actual hull. The bolts are very tight and there is no evidence of cracking in the hull or leakage around the keel. The experience of the seller pretty much match those shared in this forum, so I believe the hull is sound and the keel is securely attached. Anyway, I ended up buying the boat today. Thank you again for your help. I'm so glad to find this forum. I'll be checking in frequently.
Thank you all for sharing your experiences and advice. It helped a get deal in analyzing this problem. And since I started this thread, I'll share with you the outcome. I did explore the possibility of removing and resealing the keel. Since this is a job I did NOT feel comfortable doing myself, I spoke with most to the top notch boatworks shops in the area and I got a consistent estimate of $2000 minimum for this job. Well, I do like this boat, but I did not want to be saddled with a $2000 repair immediately upon purchase. I did end up getting the boat hauled out and inspected by the best surveyor in the area. It turns out that in the late 70s and 80s, he attached many of the keels on hunter sailboats. Hunter shipped the boats and keel unattached and had local shops do the final assembly. After a year, they would tighten the bolts and sometimes they would over tighten them. This appears to be the case with this boat. The cracking is in a liner that is on top of the actual hull. The bolts are very tight and there is no evidence of cracking in the hull or leakage around the keel. The experience of the seller pretty much match those shared in this forum, so I believe the hull is sound and the keel is securely attached. Anyway, I ended up buying the boat today. Thank you again for your help. I'm so glad to find this forum. I'll be checking in frequently.
Dave D - Congrats!
Congrats on your purchase Dave. A little stressing to get it all looked at but worth it in the end to know that you don't have to worry. We bought our '81 this spring and other than chasing a bit of water around are having a great time - am sure you'll do the same! Scott
Congrats on your purchase Dave. A little stressing to get it all looked at but worth it in the end to know that you don't have to worry. We bought our '81 this spring and other than chasing a bit of water around are having a great time - am sure you'll do the same! Scott
Ditto Congrats!
Dave - Ditto on the congratulations! I'm glad things worked out for you, and that you now have a more educated sense of confidence in your recent purchase. I love my '81 H27, and hope you love yours as much. fair winds! Pete Wallace
Dave - Ditto on the congratulations! I'm glad things worked out for you, and that you now have a more educated sense of confidence in your recent purchase. I love my '81 H27, and hope you love yours as much. fair winds! Pete Wallace
A little more info.
I had similar experience with my Hunter 27. I did need to tighten the keel bolts, 15/16" socket if I remember correctly. I did reseal the hull keel joint myself-- not too bad a job--took about 6 hours, and never leaked again. the cracks in the upper liner remained, however I sealed them with 5200. The water in the salon lockers comes from 2 places. one from the hull deck joint and two from the bilge when healed. Seal the hull deck joint to prevent water from above. You then need to stop the bilge water because it leaves dirt and grit behind. The way I did this was to use expanding polyurethane foam(sold under the brand "great stuff" at home centers). You must get a piece of plastic tubing long enough to reach from the bilge access to the tabbed joint at the bulkhead / hull joint(about 2-3' if I remember correctly) Attach the longer tubing to the tube that comes with the can and cover this joint with this stuff all along the joint. It will expand and seal any leaks in this joint. Use it also to seal around the wires and bilge pump hose as it passes through this bulkhead. You can also spray it on the hull forward of the locker to create a dam to prevent water entry here when healed heavily. It also helps if you keep a dry bilge-- that is a story for another day. Congrats on the new Hunter 27. I sold mine 4 years ago, and it is now being happily sailed on the Potomac river near Wash DC.
I had similar experience with my Hunter 27. I did need to tighten the keel bolts, 15/16" socket if I remember correctly. I did reseal the hull keel joint myself-- not too bad a job--took about 6 hours, and never leaked again. the cracks in the upper liner remained, however I sealed them with 5200. The water in the salon lockers comes from 2 places. one from the hull deck joint and two from the bilge when healed. Seal the hull deck joint to prevent water from above. You then need to stop the bilge water because it leaves dirt and grit behind. The way I did this was to use expanding polyurethane foam(sold under the brand "great stuff" at home centers). You must get a piece of plastic tubing long enough to reach from the bilge access to the tabbed joint at the bulkhead / hull joint(about 2-3' if I remember correctly) Attach the longer tubing to the tube that comes with the can and cover this joint with this stuff all along the joint. It will expand and seal any leaks in this joint. Use it also to seal around the wires and bilge pump hose as it passes through this bulkhead. You can also spray it on the hull forward of the locker to create a dam to prevent water entry here when healed heavily. It also helps if you keep a dry bilge-- that is a story for another day. Congrats on the new Hunter 27. I sold mine 4 years ago, and it is now being happily sailed on the Potomac river near Wash DC.
"Great Stuff"
Sounds like a good way to eliminate the water working its way out of the bilge and under the berths. To be sure though...do you mean along the front of each salon berth but between the cabin sole and the hull? In other words, go in through the drain holes that separate the bilge compartments but then to port and starboard toward the berths and let loose with Great Stuff there? What happens with any water that does then make it in through the hull/deck joint? Doesn't it come down between the hull and liner and into the bilge but with this sealing in place might pile up there instead of making it into the bilge? Scott
Sounds like a good way to eliminate the water working its way out of the bilge and under the berths. To be sure though...do you mean along the front of each salon berth but between the cabin sole and the hull? In other words, go in through the drain holes that separate the bilge compartments but then to port and starboard toward the berths and let loose with Great Stuff there? What happens with any water that does then make it in through the hull/deck joint? Doesn't it come down between the hull and liner and into the bilge but with this sealing in place might pile up there instead of making it into the bilge? Scott
H27 bilge water solution
Scott et al - Attached (hopefully) is a photo of how I resolved my bilge water troubles in my 1981 H27. The issue for me was a shallow bilge, and water getting between the hull and liner, and never allowing me to have a dry bilge. The photo shows 4 slots, two on each side of the bilge, cut with a dremel cutoff wheel, then faired/rounded with a power drill/grinding bit. I also cut the fore/aft walls of the bilge liner to allow wet-dry vac access behind the bilge well, and I further drilled two 1" holes through the bulkhead rib to allow the water to pass more easily between the bilge bays and to the pump. This solution has worked well for me. Any water in the bilge easily flows to the pump, and I no longer have water sloshing around behind the liner, since I can vacuum it up easily. I have more photos if anyone's interested, so please feel free to email me. Pete Wallace bpwallace@comcast.net
Scott et al - Attached (hopefully) is a photo of how I resolved my bilge water troubles in my 1981 H27. The issue for me was a shallow bilge, and water getting between the hull and liner, and never allowing me to have a dry bilge. The photo shows 4 slots, two on each side of the bilge, cut with a dremel cutoff wheel, then faired/rounded with a power drill/grinding bit. I also cut the fore/aft walls of the bilge liner to allow wet-dry vac access behind the bilge well, and I further drilled two 1" holes through the bulkhead rib to allow the water to pass more easily between the bilge bays and to the pump. This solution has worked well for me. Any water in the bilge easily flows to the pump, and I no longer have water sloshing around behind the liner, since I can vacuum it up easily. I have more photos if anyone's interested, so please feel free to email me. Pete Wallace bpwallace@comcast.net
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