For my tastes at least (your mileage may vary) the H23 wing keel is a little on the tender side...I've read some stories about adding to it but now I can't find them in the archives... Any other owners added keel or ballast somehow ?
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Cliff Ruckstuhl
Been There, Thought About That!!
Mikey, You need to remember that all you have is a 23. I went down this road with my 23 and came to the conclusion that it was still a 23. You can add 50 or a 100 lbs to the keel and all you will do is create more drag. You could just stick some extra rail meat on the rail and get the same effect. The keel is small when you look at a J22 or J24 keel but the deep rudder helps with the sailing but not with the ballest. I went as far as to consider replacing the keel with a J 22 keel. But not knowing what the out come would be it was easer to just buy a bigger boat. I almost did the keel change and after talking to a Designer found out I could spend allot of money and still have the same tender boat. I bought a 25.5 I have found that all Hunter's tend to be a bit tender it is'nt the keel that makes them tender but the hull shape. Cliff
Mikey, You need to remember that all you have is a 23. I went down this road with my 23 and came to the conclusion that it was still a 23. You can add 50 or a 100 lbs to the keel and all you will do is create more drag. You could just stick some extra rail meat on the rail and get the same effect. The keel is small when you look at a J22 or J24 keel but the deep rudder helps with the sailing but not with the ballest. I went as far as to consider replacing the keel with a J 22 keel. But not knowing what the out come would be it was easer to just buy a bigger boat. I almost did the keel change and after talking to a Designer found out I could spend allot of money and still have the same tender boat. I bought a 25.5 I have found that all Hunter's tend to be a bit tender it is'nt the keel that makes them tender but the hull shape. Cliff
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Todd Mitchell
Tender?
I'm a soon-to-be owner of a 1985 Hunter 23. What does "tender" mean? I've sailed the 33 and 35 foot Hunters but never the 23, so I'm wondering what to expect...
I'm a soon-to-be owner of a 1985 Hunter 23. What does "tender" mean? I've sailed the 33 and 35 foot Hunters but never the 23, so I'm wondering what to expect...
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Jim Kolstoe
"tender" is partly perspective
Mikey: I have owned my H23 since 12/86 and do not consider it unduly tender. "Tender" is not just quantifiable resistance to heeling, it is your prespective about how stiff it should be. Keep in mind that you're talking about a 23' boat that only weights 2450lbs. Its going to be more tender than a boat that weights 5 times as much. I've crewied on several boats in 20'-24' range. All of them respond to crew weight and wind much more than the bigger boats. I do not consider the H23 significantly more tender than similarly sized boats. Before you make changes, spend some time getting used to your boat, and crewing on similar sized boats. Then ask yourself if changes are necessary.
Mikey: I have owned my H23 since 12/86 and do not consider it unduly tender. "Tender" is not just quantifiable resistance to heeling, it is your prespective about how stiff it should be. Keep in mind that you're talking about a 23' boat that only weights 2450lbs. Its going to be more tender than a boat that weights 5 times as much. I've crewied on several boats in 20'-24' range. All of them respond to crew weight and wind much more than the bigger boats. I do not consider the H23 significantly more tender than similarly sized boats. Before you make changes, spend some time getting used to your boat, and crewing on similar sized boats. Then ask yourself if changes are necessary.
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Stephen Ostrander
what is it
with this "tender" thing and Hunters? I owned a Catalina 22 swing keel for a while, and you had to really be on your toes with that boat, but nobody at Planet Catalina complains about it being tender (I've heard of several capsizing and sinking.) Before that I had a Buccaneer 18 - now there was a tender boat! Hunters are coastal cruisers and sail very well in light air. The stiffest boat I've sailed on was an Island Packet 38 - great boat, but it wouldn't win any races, and seriously over my budget. My 33.5 would sail circles around it in light air. But if I was going to make an ocean crossing, I'd take the IP. All depends on what you want out of life, I guess
with this "tender" thing and Hunters? I owned a Catalina 22 swing keel for a while, and you had to really be on your toes with that boat, but nobody at Planet Catalina complains about it being tender (I've heard of several capsizing and sinking.) Before that I had a Buccaneer 18 - now there was a tender boat! Hunters are coastal cruisers and sail very well in light air. The stiffest boat I've sailed on was an Island Packet 38 - great boat, but it wouldn't win any races, and seriously over my budget. My 33.5 would sail circles around it in light air. But if I was going to make an ocean crossing, I'd take the IP. All depends on what you want out of life, I guess
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Mikey
IMHO !
Ok, so it may or not be tender ! But, for my tastes, it just heels too FAST, not that it may end up on a heel that is too many degrees, it just gets there too fast, so I don't know if this particular gust is going to blow the mast in the water, or just give us another 10 degrees... I don't really care if it the added wings slow the boat down a little. I would like to be able to sail w/10 knots gusting to 20 and not have to keep ahold of the mainsail line all the time !
Ok, so it may or not be tender ! But, for my tastes, it just heels too FAST, not that it may end up on a heel that is too many degrees, it just gets there too fast, so I don't know if this particular gust is going to blow the mast in the water, or just give us another 10 degrees... I don't really care if it the added wings slow the boat down a little. I would like to be able to sail w/10 knots gusting to 20 and not have to keep ahold of the mainsail line all the time !
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Keith Smoot ,S/V Gwaihir, 1987 H-23
Tender is indeed in you expections
My wife and I went from a swing-keel 16ft Sunbird to the H-23. Wanda could not buy the H-23 fast enough! It was that much more stable. Hey, just try to eat on a water-ballast H-23.5 sitting at anchor. You will see how stable that 840 pounds of cast iron is. Our boat does move a little, but once it reaches the designed heel of 7-10 degrees, it gets very stable. Next time, try this. When a puff hits, let the boat round up into the wind, do not try to hold your course. As the puff dies, the boat should come back on course with a minimum of steering. I have raced mine single-handed with the 150 gennie in 24kt gusts, and had a ball, generally outrunning the smaller one-design class boats. Don't change your keel, learn to love it, learn to sail it. If you still have problems, look me up, snark11@aol.com
My wife and I went from a swing-keel 16ft Sunbird to the H-23. Wanda could not buy the H-23 fast enough! It was that much more stable. Hey, just try to eat on a water-ballast H-23.5 sitting at anchor. You will see how stable that 840 pounds of cast iron is. Our boat does move a little, but once it reaches the designed heel of 7-10 degrees, it gets very stable. Next time, try this. When a puff hits, let the boat round up into the wind, do not try to hold your course. As the puff dies, the boat should come back on course with a minimum of steering. I have raced mine single-handed with the 150 gennie in 24kt gusts, and had a ball, generally outrunning the smaller one-design class boats. Don't change your keel, learn to love it, learn to sail it. If you still have problems, look me up, snark11@aol.com
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Greg Stebbins
Hunter 23 - Not tender - high performance +
Hunter 23 perform as designed. They are a fast, high performance boat. You will be uncomfortable if your expecting a full keel cruiser. Learn to trim your sails carefully (main espically) and enjoy a wild ride. Full knock downs are rare. Your 23 will head up by itself soon after the rail hits the water. I know, the wind can really bang here on Texas lakes. We can go 10-40-10 in what seems like 60 sec's. You learn to trust the boat an consintrate on trying to not get pitched out of the cockpit.
Hunter 23 perform as designed. They are a fast, high performance boat. You will be uncomfortable if your expecting a full keel cruiser. Learn to trim your sails carefully (main espically) and enjoy a wild ride. Full knock downs are rare. Your 23 will head up by itself soon after the rail hits the water. I know, the wind can really bang here on Texas lakes. We can go 10-40-10 in what seems like 60 sec's. You learn to trust the boat an consintrate on trying to not get pitched out of the cockpit.
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Stephen Ostrander
back to the original ?
Getting off my soapbox and back to your original question, I personally wouldn't mess with the keel on the boat, if it was mine. I saw a boat with a fin keel that had a bulb contraption bolted to the fin. I have no idea if it worked as intended but it sure looked like hell. (of course, its under water most of the time so who cares, right?) My suggestion would be to trade for a boat that would be more stable in the water as designed. The h23 is designed as a performance boat (as are many boats in this size range) but some are going to be more traditionally designed and more stable. The Dana 24 comes to mind, Island Packet 27, etc etc. Good luck with it, whatever you end up doing.
Getting off my soapbox and back to your original question, I personally wouldn't mess with the keel on the boat, if it was mine. I saw a boat with a fin keel that had a bulb contraption bolted to the fin. I have no idea if it worked as intended but it sure looked like hell. (of course, its under water most of the time so who cares, right?) My suggestion would be to trade for a boat that would be more stable in the water as designed. The h23 is designed as a performance boat (as are many boats in this size range) but some are going to be more traditionally designed and more stable. The Dana 24 comes to mind, Island Packet 27, etc etc. Good luck with it, whatever you end up doing.
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Mikey
Summary So Far
Just 2-3 weeks ago we were sailing here in Annapolis. With the water at maybe 40 degrees, I/we (esp with my preg wife, sister, etc) cannot afford to be swimming to shore, or even waiting for it to right itself. From all the emails and posts, I'd say the one drawback to more ballast/keel is speed. There seems to be 2 ways to get more stability - speed at which the boats goes from 5 to 15 degrees heel. The first is ballast the second is wing/keel shape and weight of keel. I throw the weight of the keel into the ballast 'section' or category as the keel would have the same effect on 'heeling stability' as if it were to be made of fiberglass. The actual weight of it changes the center of gravity, whther inside or outside the boat. being outside the boat has an advantage as the CG will move to a greater distance from the CB. Weight/ballast inside the boat may not be able to move as far. The main 'problem' with the boat is heeling speed though, ie the time it takes to go from 5 to 15 degrees. As far as solutions go, one person has added ballast below the floorboards in the form of lead, formed with a mold and so on. Some have added ballast in the rear storage area. Some add bulbs, some weld new wings on. I've come to the conclusion that ballast inside the boat is the best temporary solution. I may add some books I have which were going to the library, dated stuff, maybe 2-300 lbs worth. I'll also try to get some weight under the floorboards. In the future, when the boat is out of the ice, I mean water, I'll add fiberglass wings, large area to keep boat from heeling, but small frontal area. It should go through tthe water about the same, but the area as seen by the water which has be pushed out of the way will be maybe 8-10 sq ft. Almost like a wind vane. Wind pushes the blades, they turn. When moving (only the _change_ in heel angle) or heeling rapidly, the new wings will push a lot of water, stopping the boat from heeling rapidly. It will still move to the same heel angle, just not very quickly. Like a shock absorber for heeling. Oh yea, and if you're still with me, I bought a Westsail 32, for living aboard and ocean cruising. !
Just 2-3 weeks ago we were sailing here in Annapolis. With the water at maybe 40 degrees, I/we (esp with my preg wife, sister, etc) cannot afford to be swimming to shore, or even waiting for it to right itself. From all the emails and posts, I'd say the one drawback to more ballast/keel is speed. There seems to be 2 ways to get more stability - speed at which the boats goes from 5 to 15 degrees heel. The first is ballast the second is wing/keel shape and weight of keel. I throw the weight of the keel into the ballast 'section' or category as the keel would have the same effect on 'heeling stability' as if it were to be made of fiberglass. The actual weight of it changes the center of gravity, whther inside or outside the boat. being outside the boat has an advantage as the CG will move to a greater distance from the CB. Weight/ballast inside the boat may not be able to move as far. The main 'problem' with the boat is heeling speed though, ie the time it takes to go from 5 to 15 degrees. As far as solutions go, one person has added ballast below the floorboards in the form of lead, formed with a mold and so on. Some have added ballast in the rear storage area. Some add bulbs, some weld new wings on. I've come to the conclusion that ballast inside the boat is the best temporary solution. I may add some books I have which were going to the library, dated stuff, maybe 2-300 lbs worth. I'll also try to get some weight under the floorboards. In the future, when the boat is out of the ice, I mean water, I'll add fiberglass wings, large area to keep boat from heeling, but small frontal area. It should go through tthe water about the same, but the area as seen by the water which has be pushed out of the way will be maybe 8-10 sq ft. Almost like a wind vane. Wind pushes the blades, they turn. When moving (only the _change_ in heel angle) or heeling rapidly, the new wings will push a lot of water, stopping the boat from heeling rapidly. It will still move to the same heel angle, just not very quickly. Like a shock absorber for heeling. Oh yea, and if you're still with me, I bought a Westsail 32, for living aboard and ocean cruising. !
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Gary Adams
BIG DEAL....ENJOY IT
I remember the first time out on my 23. I thought it was going over. My wife and I were sailing in 25 knot winds with rather big gusts. Having sailed Hobies all my life I am adapted to, going over. It has taken some time to learn how to sail this boat. It does heel over rather fast. I have found it to be exciting. I enjoy sailing my Hobies as high out of the water as possible. I just hook in my harness and heet it in even more. I have also found adjusting crew weight will help keep it from heeling as fast. This boat is very sensitve to weight, and although it won't scream across the lake like a hobie will. My wife and I have had some wonderful days sailing. This boat is one of the fastest light wind boats I have ever been on. I won't give it up for anything.
I remember the first time out on my 23. I thought it was going over. My wife and I were sailing in 25 knot winds with rather big gusts. Having sailed Hobies all my life I am adapted to, going over. It has taken some time to learn how to sail this boat. It does heel over rather fast. I have found it to be exciting. I enjoy sailing my Hobies as high out of the water as possible. I just hook in my harness and heet it in even more. I have also found adjusting crew weight will help keep it from heeling as fast. This boat is very sensitve to weight, and although it won't scream across the lake like a hobie will. My wife and I have had some wonderful days sailing. This boat is one of the fastest light wind boats I have ever been on. I won't give it up for anything.
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Greg Stebbins
Hunter factory offical responce
Mikey, I talked to Hunter engineers earlier this year concerning this vary thing. Their responce was: do not add any large amount of weight to the boat as it could easly over stress the hull. Keel extensions are OK as long as they are low weight (Al, wood, F/G).The 23 started life with a center board in the keel so extending it is no problem. I just wanted to go faster to windward and was considering an 18 inch Al. keel extension. Congrats on the baby by-the-way! I reserve judgment on the Westsail as I'm not sure you can go back and forth between a Hunter 23 and a Westsail 32 and stay sane. Is it true that planet rotation is a noticeable factor in the Westsail's turning radus?
Mikey, I talked to Hunter engineers earlier this year concerning this vary thing. Their responce was: do not add any large amount of weight to the boat as it could easly over stress the hull. Keel extensions are OK as long as they are low weight (Al, wood, F/G).The 23 started life with a center board in the keel so extending it is no problem. I just wanted to go faster to windward and was considering an 18 inch Al. keel extension. Congrats on the baby by-the-way! I reserve judgment on the Westsail as I'm not sure you can go back and forth between a Hunter 23 and a Westsail 32 and stay sane. Is it true that planet rotation is a noticeable factor in the Westsail's turning radus?
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Mikey
Planet Rotation :+)
That's a good one ! It's funny that the Wetsnail is compared to bay boats, or as I'd say, bigger bay boats, which found their way onto the blue waters...It's a full keel, which I hope to find very useful when heaving to in force 8+ winds in the near future. When I get enough experience, some by accident, I'll be ready for a gale. More keel = less leeway when heaved of course. Another funny 'phrase' is at the Westsail owners web site (start at Westsail.com) which says that they're about as heavy as they can get without sinking at the dock !!!
That's a good one ! It's funny that the Wetsnail is compared to bay boats, or as I'd say, bigger bay boats, which found their way onto the blue waters...It's a full keel, which I hope to find very useful when heaving to in force 8+ winds in the near future. When I get enough experience, some by accident, I'll be ready for a gale. More keel = less leeway when heaved of course. Another funny 'phrase' is at the Westsail owners web site (start at Westsail.com) which says that they're about as heavy as they can get without sinking at the dock !!!
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Mikey
AL Extension/winglets ?
Has anyone made extensions for the H23 ? If not, I will make some this summer when I take it out (in now in solid ice) and sell the design. I plan to make the extensions with minimal fore or aft area, but with most/all area in the horizontal direction. Heel SPEED, I believe, will be reduced to nil with added 8 sq ft of area. This area will push water out of the way when heeling. But only in a CHANGE in heel angle, not eventual heel angle, as that may be very close to the same. I'm really only concerned with the SPEED of the heel.
Has anyone made extensions for the H23 ? If not, I will make some this summer when I take it out (in now in solid ice) and sell the design. I plan to make the extensions with minimal fore or aft area, but with most/all area in the horizontal direction. Heel SPEED, I believe, will be reduced to nil with added 8 sq ft of area. This area will push water out of the way when heeling. But only in a CHANGE in heel angle, not eventual heel angle, as that may be very close to the same. I'm really only concerned with the SPEED of the heel.
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Greg Stebbins
Re: Wing extensions
Mikey, If you're serious, you should try to contact Cliff Ruckstuhl. He went so far as to have a marine engineer design the wing extensions and may still have the blue prints. To bad he went to a 25.5, he's a heavy duty mod'er. I still think my idea would have been a hoot. 2 50 gal. bladders, 1 under each cabin seat with 50 gal's of water between them and a high speed pump to move the water back and forth as required. Too bad the hull's not strong enough. I'm currently on the look out for 4 really BIG and short people to sit in the cabin and move side to side per instructions.
Mikey, If you're serious, you should try to contact Cliff Ruckstuhl. He went so far as to have a marine engineer design the wing extensions and may still have the blue prints. To bad he went to a 25.5, he's a heavy duty mod'er. I still think my idea would have been a hoot. 2 50 gal. bladders, 1 under each cabin seat with 50 gal's of water between them and a high speed pump to move the water back and forth as required. Too bad the hull's not strong enough. I'm currently on the look out for 4 really BIG and short people to sit in the cabin and move side to side per instructions.
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Mikey
Cliff's Email Address ?
Cliff; can you email direct mjy78@eudoramail.com) so I can see what designs they came up with ? I'm adding winglets when this thing comes out of the water in June maybe. My Dad can make most anything. Once a failed bearing chewed up the bearing seat on a dirt bike, He had it welded then machined a new spot for it - still there after 20 years.
Cliff; can you email direct mjy78@eudoramail.com) so I can see what designs they came up with ? I'm adding winglets when this thing comes out of the water in June maybe. My Dad can make most anything. Once a failed bearing chewed up the bearing seat on a dirt bike, He had it welded then machined a new spot for it - still there after 20 years.
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