You're enjoying a great downwind sail out in open water. It's exciting to notice the knotmeter is reaching new speed records as you begin surfing down the backside of waves. But before you know it, wind speeds are gusting to the point where you're concerned about having too much sail up. As you ponder your next move it becomes clear you are quickly approaching a sand bank off a point. Your strategy is: Round up immediately on the same tack to ensure you have enough room to head into the wind without running into sand bank Sheet in main and try to do a conventional controlled jibe Attempt to reduce sail while sailing downwind Turn on motor and engage reverse to slow boat down ...what would you do? (Discussion topic by Trevor MacLachlan)
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hmmmm
i would Round up immediately on the same tack let the sails luff slightly furl in the head sail and once coast is clear reduce mainsail if necessary
i would Round up immediately on the same tack let the sails luff slightly furl in the head sail and once coast is clear reduce mainsail if necessary
Gybe
The question is ambiguous, there simply isn't enough information. The spread and height of the waves will be a critical factor in this decision, as any ill considered change of course could result in broaching. The fact is that you will have to go head to weather to shorten sail, and, under these circumstances, a controlled gybe will be faster than rounding up, as you are using the velocity of the boat to acheive the turn. However, they timing of the gybe is critical between the waves. Once gybed, and standing head to weather, you can shorten sail and set a new course.
The question is ambiguous, there simply isn't enough information. The spread and height of the waves will be a critical factor in this decision, as any ill considered change of course could result in broaching. The fact is that you will have to go head to weather to shorten sail, and, under these circumstances, a controlled gybe will be faster than rounding up, as you are using the velocity of the boat to acheive the turn. However, they timing of the gybe is critical between the waves. Once gybed, and standing head to weather, you can shorten sail and set a new course.
Gybe???
Gybe? That will not bring the boat upwind to facilitate reefing. Whether before or after the gybe, you will likely want to head up. If you're going to head up anyway, I don't see why not do it now and without the added complication of a gybe. I'd only gybe if it got me facing the direction that I wanted to go anyway. Head up, perhaps roller reef some headsail, tack to heave too, and reef the main? OC
Gybe? That will not bring the boat upwind to facilitate reefing. Whether before or after the gybe, you will likely want to head up. If you're going to head up anyway, I don't see why not do it now and without the added complication of a gybe. I'd only gybe if it got me facing the direction that I wanted to go anyway. Head up, perhaps roller reef some headsail, tack to heave too, and reef the main? OC
A Gybe is Always More Exciting!!!
If in doubt I head up...after effect of sailing a Laser for several years. When sailing in the ocean with the wind aft of the beam I always rig a preventer to prevent an uncontrolled gybe. The preventer can be used to lower the mainsail in a controlled fashion. What I usually do in high wind situations is to move the jib over first briefly going wing and wing and then finish the turn and allow the main to cross over..then lower the main using the preventer. Much less excitement. My preventer is rigged something like a boom vang with a 3 to one power advantage. This isn't enough to pull the boom into the wind but enough to allow a controlled lowering to the leeward. If the space was tight I would head up and tack away from the sandbar.
If in doubt I head up...after effect of sailing a Laser for several years. When sailing in the ocean with the wind aft of the beam I always rig a preventer to prevent an uncontrolled gybe. The preventer can be used to lower the mainsail in a controlled fashion. What I usually do in high wind situations is to move the jib over first briefly going wing and wing and then finish the turn and allow the main to cross over..then lower the main using the preventer. Much less excitement. My preventer is rigged something like a boom vang with a 3 to one power advantage. This isn't enough to pull the boom into the wind but enough to allow a controlled lowering to the leeward. If the space was tight I would head up and tack away from the sandbar.
Don't gybe
An emergency gybe in high winds with full sail could be dangerous. It would be much safer to head up on the same tack, and then tack your boat away from the sand bank. AND I'd start my motor at the same time, not to reverse and slow down, but to motorsail out of the situation.
An emergency gybe in high winds with full sail could be dangerous. It would be much safer to head up on the same tack, and then tack your boat away from the sand bank. AND I'd start my motor at the same time, not to reverse and slow down, but to motorsail out of the situation.
I wouldnt Gybe
A Gybe can be dangerous in this kind of situation. Breaking gear ripping sails ect: I would turn up closer into the breeze than reef my main with it luffed up. Once the reef was in I would continue on away from the bar. Bob Fox
A Gybe can be dangerous in this kind of situation. Breaking gear ripping sails ect: I would turn up closer into the breeze than reef my main with it luffed up. Once the reef was in I would continue on away from the bar. Bob Fox
Head up
(Answer assumes no chute up) Should have reduced sail a long time ago, probably, but if I have enough sail up going downwind to make it close to too exciting, things are definately going to get crazy when I head up. But that's what I need to do ... head up, dump a sail so I'm not overpowered, and then tack. Good reason why halyards always need to be ready to go. Also good reason why I don't like to carry more sail downwind than I can handle upwind (a rule I break with too much frequency
) If a chute's up, start heading up, blow the tack so it becomes a flag, stuff down the companionway quickly, and then tack. Tom Carlyle lake
(Answer assumes no chute up) Should have reduced sail a long time ago, probably, but if I have enough sail up going downwind to make it close to too exciting, things are definately going to get crazy when I head up. But that's what I need to do ... head up, dump a sail so I'm not overpowered, and then tack. Good reason why halyards always need to be ready to go. Also good reason why I don't like to carry more sail downwind than I can handle upwind (a rule I break with too much frequency
) If a chute's up, start heading up, blow the tack so it becomes a flag, stuff down the companionway quickly, and then tack. Tom Carlyle lake
Depends ...
...on just how much room I have before I get to the sandbar. Assuming I'm on a broad reach and not wing and wing, and if I have room, I would head further off the wind to where the main was blanketing the genoa, at which point I would furl in some of the genoa. I'm also an advocate of downwind reefing which I've done in as much as 30 knots of true wind. I have single-line reefing and low friction battcars which makes this work for me. Even off the wind, I'll ease the main halyard a couple of feet, then put the line brake for the halyard on and winch in the reef line, repeating the process until I've got a reef in without ever leaving the cockpit. Works great. If I didn't have enough room to do that before hitting the sandbar, I would significantly ease the sheets while coming up to spill some wind, as the increase in apparent wind and centrifugal force of the turn are really going to add to heel and weather helm and maybe cause a broach. From that point I would shorten sail. Gary Wyngarden S/V Wanderlust h37.5
...on just how much room I have before I get to the sandbar. Assuming I'm on a broad reach and not wing and wing, and if I have room, I would head further off the wind to where the main was blanketing the genoa, at which point I would furl in some of the genoa. I'm also an advocate of downwind reefing which I've done in as much as 30 knots of true wind. I have single-line reefing and low friction battcars which makes this work for me. Even off the wind, I'll ease the main halyard a couple of feet, then put the line brake for the halyard on and winch in the reef line, repeating the process until I've got a reef in without ever leaving the cockpit. Works great. If I didn't have enough room to do that before hitting the sandbar, I would significantly ease the sheets while coming up to spill some wind, as the increase in apparent wind and centrifugal force of the turn are really going to add to heel and weather helm and maybe cause a broach. From that point I would shorten sail. Gary Wyngarden S/V Wanderlust h37.5
Why Gibe?
The posting does not tell me how much distance to the bar so I will take it to mean that the risk of grounding is imminent and I need to turn away in the fastest way. There is no mention of crew so I will take it to mean solo. There is also no information about the size or orientation of the bar so the only thing I can be certain is that there is adequate water depth where I came from. Given this scenario the fastest and simplest way would be round the boat up in its current tack. Release the sheets and make a quick timed turn to minimize wave action. Finish turn at a close hauled course and get to a safe distance where you can heave to and reef sails and survey charts for a safe course. I guess what I mean to say is that executing based on the worst possible sceneario will always be a correct answer.
The posting does not tell me how much distance to the bar so I will take it to mean that the risk of grounding is imminent and I need to turn away in the fastest way. There is no mention of crew so I will take it to mean solo. There is also no information about the size or orientation of the bar so the only thing I can be certain is that there is adequate water depth where I came from. Given this scenario the fastest and simplest way would be round the boat up in its current tack. Release the sheets and make a quick timed turn to minimize wave action. Finish turn at a close hauled course and get to a safe distance where you can heave to and reef sails and survey charts for a safe course. I guess what I mean to say is that executing based on the worst possible sceneario will always be a correct answer.
Chicken Jibe
Trevor: Good questions. It makes sailors think about what they would do. If I was in the situation you describe, which I'm going to assume dictates the boat has to be turned around, I would perform a "half chicken jibe". A full chicken jibe or regular controlled jibe would be used to change down wind tack but I want to get away from the sand bar and back in the open water I just came from. With the half chicken jibe it would get me heading up wind and away from the problem. These chicken jibes (half or full) are simple to perform and very safe compared to jibing the boat in heavy wind and then add in the element of the approaching sand bar to the equation and you have to get it right the first time. Also, with a chicken jibe it does not matter if you are wing and wing or not. In fact, it works easier if you are wing and wing.
Trevor: Good questions. It makes sailors think about what they would do. If I was in the situation you describe, which I'm going to assume dictates the boat has to be turned around, I would perform a "half chicken jibe". A full chicken jibe or regular controlled jibe would be used to change down wind tack but I want to get away from the sand bar and back in the open water I just came from. With the half chicken jibe it would get me heading up wind and away from the problem. These chicken jibes (half or full) are simple to perform and very safe compared to jibing the boat in heavy wind and then add in the element of the approaching sand bar to the equation and you have to get it right the first time. Also, with a chicken jibe it does not matter if you are wing and wing or not. In fact, it works easier if you are wing and wing.
Hmm, kinda sounds like what we did
this weekend. Came flying into Port Townsend on a beam reach with staysail up and one reef in the main in 40 knots gusting to 60 and needed to reverse course and douse sail. Timing the swells (10 foot waves) I eased completely and put her hard over to windward as we slid off the back of a wave. We buried the bow in the next wave, centered the helm and sheeted in tight, jeesh what a racket. I had the engine up at WOT to maintain steerage and heading whilst we got the sails down. After that it was a simple 9+ knot surf between the breakwater rocks on a wave and into the marina about 10 minutes till dark. Lotsa nice folks to help us dock. Ah, don't try this at home.
this weekend. Came flying into Port Townsend on a beam reach with staysail up and one reef in the main in 40 knots gusting to 60 and needed to reverse course and douse sail. Timing the swells (10 foot waves) I eased completely and put her hard over to windward as we slid off the back of a wave. We buried the bow in the next wave, centered the helm and sheeted in tight, jeesh what a racket. I had the engine up at WOT to maintain steerage and heading whilst we got the sails down. After that it was a simple 9+ knot surf between the breakwater rocks on a wave and into the marina about 10 minutes till dark. Lotsa nice folks to help us dock. Ah, don't try this at home.
take it in steps
I would head up real gently, but quickly . my plan would be to free the lines on my two jibs (no genoa ) to render them useless but on stand by and use the main to get into the wind. The boat could gybe but with much less wind force and I will only be gybing one sail(if it needed to jybe at all, it should be able to head up without jybing.Its too stressfull on the rigging and you would only have to tack 180 degrees. you shouldn't need to gybe . hopefully I could have a quick tack around and time the wave movement carefully and quickly.In the end I would be sailing upwind away from the problem . I would have the option of reefing or droping sails or motoring..The choice to de power sails should have been made before the boat became overpowered by the wind and it always pays to go over charts carefully before you go anywhere so as not to have anything like this spring up on you...smitroe
I would head up real gently, but quickly . my plan would be to free the lines on my two jibs (no genoa ) to render them useless but on stand by and use the main to get into the wind. The boat could gybe but with much less wind force and I will only be gybing one sail(if it needed to jybe at all, it should be able to head up without jybing.Its too stressfull on the rigging and you would only have to tack 180 degrees. you shouldn't need to gybe . hopefully I could have a quick tack around and time the wave movement carefully and quickly.In the end I would be sailing upwind away from the problem . I would have the option of reefing or droping sails or motoring..The choice to de power sails should have been made before the boat became overpowered by the wind and it always pays to go over charts carefully before you go anywhere so as not to have anything like this spring up on you...smitroe
wave motion??
I have read two posts regarding "when to jibe" having in mind the presence of waves. This means that there is a safe periode that the jibe should take place. Can anyone clarify exactley when it is safe to jibe when there are 3 foot waves behind you. Do you jibe after the wave has just crested under the keel or while you are surfing down the wave? I am having problems myself when jibing in waves. What is the best way to have complete controled jibe?
I have read two posts regarding "when to jibe" having in mind the presence of waves. This means that there is a safe periode that the jibe should take place. Can anyone clarify exactley when it is safe to jibe when there are 3 foot waves behind you. Do you jibe after the wave has just crested under the keel or while you are surfing down the wave? I am having problems myself when jibing in waves. What is the best way to have complete controled jibe?
don't round up...
...head up. As you do, bring the jib in tight. Now tack without releasing the jib, so that you're hove to. Next, shorten sail on the main. When you're done, release the jib, allowing it to tack, and bear away onto your new course. Chances are you'll find yourself sailing almost as fast as before, but with enough control to feel comfortable gybing back once you've cleared the bar.
...head up. As you do, bring the jib in tight. Now tack without releasing the jib, so that you're hove to. Next, shorten sail on the main. When you're done, release the jib, allowing it to tack, and bear away onto your new course. Chances are you'll find yourself sailing almost as fast as before, but with enough control to feel comfortable gybing back once you've cleared the bar.
joe's question
Assuming that the wind and waves are in the same direction, so that the swell is behind you when you're DDW: remember that apparent wind decreases when you accelerate downwind, so the best moment is when the stern rises on a wave. The worst moment is when the bow rises, because the boat decelerates and the gybe intensifies correspondingly. It's a bit counterintuitive, but it works.
Assuming that the wind and waves are in the same direction, so that the swell is behind you when you're DDW: remember that apparent wind decreases when you accelerate downwind, so the best moment is when the stern rises on a wave. The worst moment is when the bow rises, because the boat decelerates and the gybe intensifies correspondingly. It's a bit counterintuitive, but it works.
Missing detail?
John, I must be misunderstanding your assumptions. It sounds like you've given the recipe for a broach, and I'd agree that it seems counterintuitive. If the waves are DDW and hitting you say on the starboard quarter. As the stern is coming up on a wave (bow down in trough), if you turn and gybe (putting the wave to your port quarter), you will combine the rolling force of the sail coming across with the rolling down the wave coming under you, risking a broach. Did I miss something? In any case, it's all in the timing!
John, I must be misunderstanding your assumptions. It sounds like you've given the recipe for a broach, and I'd agree that it seems counterintuitive. If the waves are DDW and hitting you say on the starboard quarter. As the stern is coming up on a wave (bow down in trough), if you turn and gybe (putting the wave to your port quarter), you will combine the rolling force of the sail coming across with the rolling down the wave coming under you, risking a broach. Did I miss something? In any case, it's all in the timing!
Question about sheeting DDW
This is somewhayt related...i've heard things about breaking the boom if it touches the water / waves next to the boat when coming across in a jibe. In that case, you would want to jibe so that the boom comes across while the boat is high..I think. In any case - is this a property of mid-boom sheeting only?
This is somewhayt related...i've heard things about breaking the boom if it touches the water / waves next to the boat when coming across in a jibe. In that case, you would want to jibe so that the boom comes across while the boat is high..I think. In any case - is this a property of mid-boom sheeting only?
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