It looks like "Uncle" might purposely break something that isn't broken. Does anyone believe there will not be tests to determine whether they can successfully "disable certain areas"? If this proves to be as successful as the way they handle airport security I predict the sales of sextants is going to see a nice increase.
GPS may not be reliable.
- Thread starter Larry Long
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GPS is Nice, but
I wouldn't bet my life on it. If I was on the big blue, I would have a sextant on board. Besides that, they eat batteries like mad and the little errors can be maddening when you are close to something. They can be good for confirming what you already know.
I wouldn't bet my life on it. If I was on the big blue, I would have a sextant on board. Besides that, they eat batteries like mad and the little errors can be maddening when you are close to something. They can be good for confirming what you already know.
My Experience
I sail in some very challenging areas through dense fog, heavy rain, etc. I use my Garmin GPS interfaced with Capn software on my laptop. I have found it to be extremely accurate. I also use radar, paper charts, and my eyes, ears, and brain. But gps is an important part of the equation and it hasn't let me down yet. Gary Wyngarden S/V Wanderlust H37.5
I sail in some very challenging areas through dense fog, heavy rain, etc. I use my Garmin GPS interfaced with Capn software on my laptop. I have found it to be extremely accurate. I also use radar, paper charts, and my eyes, ears, and brain. But gps is an important part of the equation and it hasn't let me down yet. Gary Wyngarden S/V Wanderlust H37.5
Techophobia is rampant!
Never hurts to have charts or other nav aids close at hand, but GPS technology is wonderful and reliable. A shutdown of the system is highly unlikely in view of the aircraft and marine traffic, both civilian and military, that rely on it for safe passage. The introduction of an error in the system is a bit more likely. Recognizing the potential for electronic malfunction, why not carry a backup GPS. They are pretty cheap these days, and I always carry extra batteries. How much redundancy do we really need? Jon McClain s/v Parrot Tales, Ben321
Never hurts to have charts or other nav aids close at hand, but GPS technology is wonderful and reliable. A shutdown of the system is highly unlikely in view of the aircraft and marine traffic, both civilian and military, that rely on it for safe passage. The introduction of an error in the system is a bit more likely. Recognizing the potential for electronic malfunction, why not carry a backup GPS. They are pretty cheap these days, and I always carry extra batteries. How much redundancy do we really need? Jon McClain s/v Parrot Tales, Ben321
On the map
What I ment was that according to my mapping GPS, I am 50 feet away from my dock location. The only problem is that land is also 50 feet in that direction.
What I ment was that according to my mapping GPS, I am 50 feet away from my dock location. The only problem is that land is also 50 feet in that direction.
So far, my 76S has been dead-on.
The position shown on the screen is (near as I can tell) within 2 meters of the mapped/charted location. Nonetheless, I still have a sextant that I take out once a month just to be sure I remember how to use it. It's certainly better use of my time than playing a couple of games of solitaire. ;^) ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
The position shown on the screen is (near as I can tell) within 2 meters of the mapped/charted location. Nonetheless, I still have a sextant that I take out once a month just to be sure I remember how to use it. It's certainly better use of my time than playing a couple of games of solitaire. ;^) ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
No GPS
Turn off your GPS, Leave your hand held down below. Can you still navigate? I sailed in a time when all we had was Chapman's and our charts. I used RDF and I vectored my course across the Gulf stream and arrived where I wanted to be. I think it is to easy to navigate with GPS. What if your GPS fails,Can you get home?
Turn off your GPS, Leave your hand held down below. Can you still navigate? I sailed in a time when all we had was Chapman's and our charts. I used RDF and I vectored my course across the Gulf stream and arrived where I wanted to be. I think it is to easy to navigate with GPS. What if your GPS fails,Can you get home?
GPS Position
I use GPS all the time - and have three of them onboard. One little USB DeLorme unit on the laptop, a Garmin GPSMap 76S with charts and the route that I am following on it and a Garmin 76 with the route I am following on it. Even though I leave one on at all times, if power fails, I use it like a sextant - take a reading then turn it off. Then the batteries last a long time. I use rechargeables and carry some akalines as spares. I crossed the Atlantic in 2002 with the Challenge Business boats and never used a paper chart. All navigation was done on the PCs aboard. We did have paper charts, though - and a sextant. We are in the age of electronic navigation but I agree that we should be able to navigate with a compass, sextant and charts if for no other reason than to understand what we're doing with a GPS.
I use GPS all the time - and have three of them onboard. One little USB DeLorme unit on the laptop, a Garmin GPSMap 76S with charts and the route that I am following on it and a Garmin 76 with the route I am following on it. Even though I leave one on at all times, if power fails, I use it like a sextant - take a reading then turn it off. Then the batteries last a long time. I use rechargeables and carry some akalines as spares. I crossed the Atlantic in 2002 with the Challenge Business boats and never used a paper chart. All navigation was done on the PCs aboard. We did have paper charts, though - and a sextant. We are in the age of electronic navigation but I agree that we should be able to navigate with a compass, sextant and charts if for no other reason than to understand what we're doing with a GPS.
Keep up your navigation skills
Tune up your radars, update your charts, keep a sharp eye out for islamo-fascists, clean your weapons, make a plan.... For you guys who did not check the link, here it is again: From News of the Force, Thursday 16 December : ============= Bush prepares for possible GPS shutdown President Bush has ordered plans for temporarily disabling the U.S. network of global positioning satellites during a national crisis to prevent terrorists from using the navigational technology, the White House said yesterday. Any shutdown of the network inside the United States would come under only the most remarkable circumstances, said a Bush administration official who spoke to a small group of reporters at the White House on condition of anonymity. The GPS system is vital to commercial aviation and marine shipping. The president also instructed the Defense Department to develop plans to disable, in certain areas, an enemy's access to the U.S. navigational satellites and to similar systems operated by others. The European Union is developing a $4.8 billion program, called Galileo. The military increasingly uses GPS technology to move troops across large areas and direct bombs and missiles. Any government-ordered shutdown or jamming of the GPS satellites would be done in ways to limit disruptions to navigation and related systems outside the affected area, the White House said. "This is not something you would do lightly," said James A. Lewis, director of technology policy for the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies. "It's clearly a big deal. You have to give them credit for being so open about what they're going to do." President Clinton abandoned the practice in May 2000 of deliberately degrading the accuracy of civilian navigation signals, a technique known as "selective availability." The White House said it will not reinstate that practice, but said the president could decide to disable parts of the network for national security purposes. The directives to the Defense Department and the Homeland Security Department were part of a space policy that Bush signed this month. It designates the GPS network as a critical infrastructure for the U.S. government. Part of the new policy is classified; other parts were disclosed yesterday. The White House said the policies were aimed at improving the stability and performance of the U.S. navigation system, which Bush pledged will continue to be made available for free. The U.S. network is comprised of more than two dozen satellites that act as beacons, sending location-specific radio signals that are recognized by devices popular with motorists, hikers, pilots and sailors. Bush also said the government will make the network signals more resistant to deliberate or inadvertent jamming.
Tune up your radars, update your charts, keep a sharp eye out for islamo-fascists, clean your weapons, make a plan.... For you guys who did not check the link, here it is again: From News of the Force, Thursday 16 December : ============= Bush prepares for possible GPS shutdown President Bush has ordered plans for temporarily disabling the U.S. network of global positioning satellites during a national crisis to prevent terrorists from using the navigational technology, the White House said yesterday. Any shutdown of the network inside the United States would come under only the most remarkable circumstances, said a Bush administration official who spoke to a small group of reporters at the White House on condition of anonymity. The GPS system is vital to commercial aviation and marine shipping. The president also instructed the Defense Department to develop plans to disable, in certain areas, an enemy's access to the U.S. navigational satellites and to similar systems operated by others. The European Union is developing a $4.8 billion program, called Galileo. The military increasingly uses GPS technology to move troops across large areas and direct bombs and missiles. Any government-ordered shutdown or jamming of the GPS satellites would be done in ways to limit disruptions to navigation and related systems outside the affected area, the White House said. "This is not something you would do lightly," said James A. Lewis, director of technology policy for the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies. "It's clearly a big deal. You have to give them credit for being so open about what they're going to do." President Clinton abandoned the practice in May 2000 of deliberately degrading the accuracy of civilian navigation signals, a technique known as "selective availability." The White House said it will not reinstate that practice, but said the president could decide to disable parts of the network for national security purposes. The directives to the Defense Department and the Homeland Security Department were part of a space policy that Bush signed this month. It designates the GPS network as a critical infrastructure for the U.S. government. Part of the new policy is classified; other parts were disclosed yesterday. The White House said the policies were aimed at improving the stability and performance of the U.S. navigation system, which Bush pledged will continue to be made available for free. The U.S. network is comprised of more than two dozen satellites that act as beacons, sending location-specific radio signals that are recognized by devices popular with motorists, hikers, pilots and sailors. Bush also said the government will make the network signals more resistant to deliberate or inadvertent jamming.
The White House?
The White House said the policies were aimed at improving the stability and performance of the U.S. navigation system, which Bush pledged will continue to be made available for free. Oh yeah, just more lies. Improving performance by turning it off. Wow.
The White House said the policies were aimed at improving the stability and performance of the U.S. navigation system, which Bush pledged will continue to be made available for free. Oh yeah, just more lies. Improving performance by turning it off. Wow.
?????????
Historically, navigation aids have been turned off to deny information to the enemy. I am not sure why you think the same should/could not occur to the GPS. If you are depending on the GPS for your sole source of navigation, you are asking for trouble. Keeping that in mind, I am not sure why the ability to selectively turn off GPS would not also be tested.
Historically, navigation aids have been turned off to deny information to the enemy. I am not sure why you think the same should/could not occur to the GPS. If you are depending on the GPS for your sole source of navigation, you are asking for trouble. Keeping that in mind, I am not sure why the ability to selectively turn off GPS would not also be tested.
GPS: Just one tool in the box
Not to be redundant, but let once more reiterate what others have repeatedly said over and over again: Bravo to all who have mastered the art of manual reading to the point where they can recall which combination of buttons to push in what sequence in order to have the little blinky thing show them where they are! Brickbats to those who can't tell north from north-by-northwest without the techno-gadget! As a driver of sky boats (airplanes), there were times when the only visual references I could get were where the propellor and wingtips were. In those instances, the VOR (direction finding radio) and gyro instruments were a comfort. But, BEFORE I got myself into that situation, I had already plotted my course on the chart, and had a pretty good idea where I was, due to flying a compass heading at a known speed for a known time, with known wind speed and direction. So, here's one more vote FOR GPS as one more aid to navigation, and AGAINST GPS (or Loran)as your PRIMARY or ONLY means of avoiding becoming a deck ornament on a nuclear sub!
Bob Cowgill
Not to be redundant, but let once more reiterate what others have repeatedly said over and over again: Bravo to all who have mastered the art of manual reading to the point where they can recall which combination of buttons to push in what sequence in order to have the little blinky thing show them where they are! Brickbats to those who can't tell north from north-by-northwest without the techno-gadget! As a driver of sky boats (airplanes), there were times when the only visual references I could get were where the propellor and wingtips were. In those instances, the VOR (direction finding radio) and gyro instruments were a comfort. But, BEFORE I got myself into that situation, I had already plotted my course on the chart, and had a pretty good idea where I was, due to flying a compass heading at a known speed for a known time, with known wind speed and direction. So, here's one more vote FOR GPS as one more aid to navigation, and AGAINST GPS (or Loran)as your PRIMARY or ONLY means of avoiding becoming a deck ornament on a nuclear sub!
Bob CowgillTurn off my GPS receiver..? (Yeah, right...)
When was the last time you did long division with a pencil.....Probably the same day that the fast food check-out gal counted back your change without looking at the LED screen. Although you better believe that they can manipulate the accuracy of the GPS within a given area when ever it is desired... There was a weekend a couple of months ago, the same weekend of an offshore race as I recall, when a precaution appeared in the local newspaper informing those near the beach and in a prescribed area offshore not to rely on their cell phones or GPS's to operate correctly at all times. It seems that the area was roughly from St. Augustine to Daytona and maybe 20-50 miles off shore. I did not hear of any problems or anomalies.
When was the last time you did long division with a pencil.....Probably the same day that the fast food check-out gal counted back your change without looking at the LED screen. Although you better believe that they can manipulate the accuracy of the GPS within a given area when ever it is desired... There was a weekend a couple of months ago, the same weekend of an offshore race as I recall, when a precaution appeared in the local newspaper informing those near the beach and in a prescribed area offshore not to rely on their cell phones or GPS's to operate correctly at all times. It seems that the area was roughly from St. Augustine to Daytona and maybe 20-50 miles off shore. I did not hear of any problems or anomalies.
Stu - What lies? Its time to wake up!
You don't want to use it anyway - it is one of those evil DOD projects and we do not want to encourage them. You should just say no to DOD projects. Why don't you start a GPS boycott until they get us out of Iraq? There are no guarantees (and never have been) that GPS would ever be absolutely reliable or even available. No one can promise that any manmade electronic aid to navigation will be 100 percent reliable. It is amazing that it works as well as it does. One good powerful solar storm or a big cloud of cosmic debris could shut it down in a short time. The governmental reasons for shutting it down have always been there. GPS could be and should be shut down for the same reasons SCATANA (Security Control of Air Traffic and Air Navigation Aids) would go into effect. Enemy attack is a great reason to implement SCATANA and shut down GPS. SCATANA was seriously considered during the events of Sept 11th 01. If you want more reliability and capability, consider a multi-system GPS which uses both NAVSTAR and GLONASS signals. These kind of systems are made by Ashtech as I recall as well as others. I am sure the French would not allow GLONASS to shut down - just to prevent a few hundred thousand deaths (most likely Americans anyway) from a GLONASS guided nuke missile from some Islamic fascist or communist totalitarian freak.
You don't want to use it anyway - it is one of those evil DOD projects and we do not want to encourage them. You should just say no to DOD projects. Why don't you start a GPS boycott until they get us out of Iraq? There are no guarantees (and never have been) that GPS would ever be absolutely reliable or even available. No one can promise that any manmade electronic aid to navigation will be 100 percent reliable. It is amazing that it works as well as it does. One good powerful solar storm or a big cloud of cosmic debris could shut it down in a short time. The governmental reasons for shutting it down have always been there. GPS could be and should be shut down for the same reasons SCATANA (Security Control of Air Traffic and Air Navigation Aids) would go into effect. Enemy attack is a great reason to implement SCATANA and shut down GPS. SCATANA was seriously considered during the events of Sept 11th 01. If you want more reliability and capability, consider a multi-system GPS which uses both NAVSTAR and GLONASS signals. These kind of systems are made by Ashtech as I recall as well as others. I am sure the French would not allow GLONASS to shut down - just to prevent a few hundred thousand deaths (most likely Americans anyway) from a GLONASS guided nuke missile from some Islamic fascist or communist totalitarian freak.
Haywire GPS
Last summer my brother was passing from Long Island , NY to Block Island, RI. He saw a submarine coming from Groton, CT heading to sea. In that short time, his GPS completely malfunctioned and completely lost signal. Seems like the sub was jamming the GPS signals in its area while it was underway.
Last summer my brother was passing from Long Island , NY to Block Island, RI. He saw a submarine coming from Groton, CT heading to sea. In that short time, his GPS completely malfunctioned and completely lost signal. Seems like the sub was jamming the GPS signals in its area while it was underway.
Stu, Not a Political Board
Stu, take your political rants elsewhere. You've done pretty well for a while, and haven't ridiculed anyone for asking what you consider to be a stupid question. But your politics don't belong here - find a political board and sound off there.
Stu, take your political rants elsewhere. You've done pretty well for a while, and haven't ridiculed anyone for asking what you consider to be a stupid question. But your politics don't belong here - find a political board and sound off there.
Sorry, Steve, GPS is political...
Sorry, Steve, but the latest news about GPS is inherently political and it hits recreational boaters the hardest. This is an issue that recreational boaters need to talk about immediately and frankly, because organizations that represent us (BoatUS, etc.) will have to do a lot of lobbying to make people in Washington care that it matters to us. We need to make sure everyone in the boating community knows about this and this forum is a proper place to discuss it, including the politics. If you don't like politics, move on to another topic...
Sorry, Steve, but the latest news about GPS is inherently political and it hits recreational boaters the hardest. This is an issue that recreational boaters need to talk about immediately and frankly, because organizations that represent us (BoatUS, etc.) will have to do a lot of lobbying to make people in Washington care that it matters to us. We need to make sure everyone in the boating community knows about this and this forum is a proper place to discuss it, including the politics. If you don't like politics, move on to another topic...
Policital posts vs. uh... political posts
Please allow me to clarify: theis forum is an appropriate (and effective) place to discuss the news on the GPS system, and the politics as relates to lobbying and a solution. It is _not_ a forum to discuss the shortcomings of the party in power, the shortcomings of the party out of power, or the recent election. Thanks for your cooperation! ph.
Please allow me to clarify: theis forum is an appropriate (and effective) place to discuss the news on the GPS system, and the politics as relates to lobbying and a solution. It is _not_ a forum to discuss the shortcomings of the party in power, the shortcomings of the party out of power, or the recent election. Thanks for your cooperation! ph.
GPS Roots
I find this whole thread interesting, more because of "I want what I want" attitude than anything else. Here's a "Reader's Digest" version of how I understand the GPS system. It was created by the DOD for use by the military. When launched, it was ONLY for use by the military. Later, the government allowed limited public use, but deliberately crippled the accuracy of the public use system. Later, they removed that crippling technology (or, at lease relaxed it). Now, I may be wrong on any of this, but if I am, then what's our beef? We're being allowed to use a system that was designed for other purposes. When the original benefactors (the DOD) need to disable it for THEIR use only, then more power to them. I believe those that don't like the situation would be be better served learning another navigation method than complaining about the situation.
I find this whole thread interesting, more because of "I want what I want" attitude than anything else. Here's a "Reader's Digest" version of how I understand the GPS system. It was created by the DOD for use by the military. When launched, it was ONLY for use by the military. Later, the government allowed limited public use, but deliberately crippled the accuracy of the public use system. Later, they removed that crippling technology (or, at lease relaxed it). Now, I may be wrong on any of this, but if I am, then what's our beef? We're being allowed to use a system that was designed for other purposes. When the original benefactors (the DOD) need to disable it for THEIR use only, then more power to them. I believe those that don't like the situation would be be better served learning another navigation method than complaining about the situation.
Stop the wining
I knew the GPS system was a military system that was made available to the public. I also knew it could be degraded or blocked by the government if it felt the need to do so. Even so, I still bought a GPS unit and the software for it. If you didn't know this before you bought your GPS unit, then shame on you. That information was there all along, so it's your fault for not doing your homework. If you're wining about the government being able to degrade or block the GPS system, you have no one to blame but yourself. As others have mentioned, get a sextant and learn to use it. So far, the government has not been able to block the Sun, moon or the stars. ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
I knew the GPS system was a military system that was made available to the public. I also knew it could be degraded or blocked by the government if it felt the need to do so. Even so, I still bought a GPS unit and the software for it. If you didn't know this before you bought your GPS unit, then shame on you. That information was there all along, so it's your fault for not doing your homework. If you're wining about the government being able to degrade or block the GPS system, you have no one to blame but yourself. As others have mentioned, get a sextant and learn to use it. So far, the government has not been able to block the Sun, moon or the stars. ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
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