Going bigger?

sail sfbay · Aug 10, 2022

Will the boat be in the water or on a trailer ready to launch? If in the water, extra costs for berthing, bottom maintenance, otherwise no other disadvantages.

Stu Jackson · Aug 10, 2022

John, there are no downsides to going bigger, given your input. This is from a C22 (1983-87), C25 (1987-98) and this C34 (1998 to now - 25 years). Some will say if you're in a slip you end up having to go out into the same water all the time. Depends on where you sail. When I was in San Francisco, I could sail two different ways to get out to the main Bay from my slip in Alameda- up the Estuary or out the Back Door raising four bridges! Fun stuff, never got old. In 2016 I sailed her up here to B.C., and from my marina I can go either way around Saltspring Island. Oddly enough it is literally identical time from my slip to my favorite anchorage either way.

We would trailer the 22 to Clear Lake a few hours north of SF during the summers and leave it in a slip, winter dry sailed on SF Bay. Trailering go real old real quick for us. The 25 we sailed on SF Bay, the Delta and the ocean down to Monterey, fixed keel, slip.

Good luck whatever you choose.

jaysweet · Aug 10, 2022

I'm going to assume you're talking about being in a slip. The upsides are: it's way easier to get out on the water, and you'll probably use the boat more often. Also, you're talking about a much bigger boat, and having standing head-room is HUGE. The downsides are: cost, cost, time, money, and cost.

I've had a trailerable (Hunter 23) and a non-trailerable (Hunter 306), and even the trailerable we kept in a slip, although we did save on dry storage by keeping it in the backyard over the winter. A 23-foot boat is, IMHO, not something I'd want to step the mast on every time I sailed it, although there are much easier boats than the H23 to launch. Frankly, I'm way happier with the 30 foot boat, although the money spent is absurdly disproportionate to the usage. But that's sailing, in my opinion. There is plenty of room for legitimate debate on the cost/benefit analysis, so other's opinions are just as valid as mine.

Leeward Rail · Aug 10, 2022

Everything is likely more expensive.
Everything else is dependant on your expectations.

@Stu Jackson about nailed it.

Our situation.:
We previously had a C22. While we planned to tow it to various locations, our work life prevents that. Sooo we put it in a slip to make it easier to go sailing, while still having the option to tow it someplace if we wanted. Yet the only place we towed it was to and from marina at the start/end of the season. (1 hour 20 mins to our fave marina on a huge lake)

Soon, we realized we could get a 30ft boat, without the compromises in comfort that a trailerable requires,not need to tow it at all, have the marina launch it and store it.. While allowing us to sell the tow vehicle and eliminate it's maintenance/fuel/insurance.
In the end it should work out to be near the same annual cost as the C22 and a tow vehicle.

Now we can have guests aboard, from other marina members to friends who have never sailed.

My wife loves the new boat because it is comfy, and sails much faster.
It is no longer a boat, it is a vacation.

As long as the dollars and cents calculation works for you, go for it.

Worst case you sell the bigger boat in a few years, get something else and change as your needs change.

Scott T-Bird · Aug 10, 2022

Ann Arber ... eh? So are you talking local lakes or Great Lakes? We had our 27' Starwind on a mooring, then a slip, at a small lake and I would much prefer that boat to anything less, particularly a small daysailer less than 20'. The reason? It's so much more versatile! I'm supposing that you are setting up, sailing, tearing down. How monotonous must that be for you and your wife? Where do you relax and chill? You don't have any room for that. With a bigger boat, you don't have to come in from sailing to just enjoy the opportunity for an easy going life on the water. For me, just hanging out at the slip messing around with the things I want to tinker with is as much enjoyment as the actual sailing. When you have the boat at the slip, your wife doesn't have to be attached at the hip if she doesn't want to be. A bigger boat is more like a vacation home, even if you rarely sleep on it. You still have the systems on it to be comfortable.

That said, when we moved our 27' boat to the coast and spent time overnight, it wasn't big enough for the both of us. It became a hassle to be bumping into each other. I loved my Starwind 27 for single handing and staying overnight alone in that case. We bought our Catalina 320 because our vacation home needed to be roomier for the both of us to enjoy it.

The financing part of it is up to you to figure out. If you go small because of the expense, you probably aren't going to be happier spending more money.

Tedd · Aug 10, 2022

I have to think that you can get your rigging and de-rigging time much shorter than that. I had my Macgregor 26S set up so that I could launch it like a powerboat and rig while motoring out to sailable water. It was effectively zero set up time (since set-up was done while motoring). I can't see why that wouldn't be possible with a smaller boat like the Capri.

If you do decide to get a slip, then I'd recommend ditching the whole trailerable idea and just get a bigger boat--something that's worth paying slip fees for.

Although I've never tried this, myself, an intermediate strategy that a lot of people seem to like is a boat on a trailer, already rigged, stored at the marina. I see a lot of those at the marina near my house.

stickinthemud57 · Aug 10, 2022

Going from pure trailer sailing to "something larger" downsides? That depends.

If you have a place where you can leave the mast stepped and just back it in at the ramp, that would be pretty cool. Far less costly than paying for a slip and the marina-required insurance. The downside would be whatever monthly parking charges you would incur.

Costs go up significantly if you are talking about a slip/insurance/bottom maintenance, etc.

After deciding our Hunter 170 (17' daysailer) was not OK for the grandkids, we decided on an easily trailerable MacGregor 26S (not to be confused with the X or M motor sailers), and we love it. We have it slipped at Lake Grapevine (Dallas-Fort Worth TX area) for just under 4 grand a year including marina-required insurance. I can be out on the lake in 15 minutes. We have trailered it down to Lake Travis (Austin, TX) and Lake Texoma (TX-LA border) with ease. Going in and out is about 1.5 hours each way. Kudos to Tedd for being able to rig underway, but I prefer doing that on shore.

Coming from smaller boats, you will find the Mac 26S a big step up in terms of comfort and amenities. Sleeps 4 to 6, depending on age with a full queen berth under the cockpit. Modest galley area, modest head, good-sized cockpit, decent performance. Great for a weekend camp-out. Not for blue water.

The boat weighs a mere 1650 lbs with the water ballast empty. Taking it from one place to another is a breeze, as is pulling it for maintenance when needed. Far less expensive to maintain than a fixed-keel boat. There are other 20'+ trailer sailers out there, of course

Going to a fixed-keel boat will be more costly and limit your options. Taking it from one place to another is costly and logistically difficult, so in practical terms you would be limited to wherever you slip it. Taking it out for maintenance will be costly as well.

I have not regretted for a single minute going with a lightweight, trailerable 26' water-ballast boat. I sail it like a skiff, single-handing it easily, and feel like a tycoon when I am grilling steaks on the Magma grill after a day on the lake.

Project_Mayhem · Aug 10, 2022

15 minute drive to pickup the boat, 15 minutes to hook it up and make sure it's secure, 30-60 minutes to drive to the lake, an hour setup, launch, park the trailer and finally leave the dock. Then once you're beat from the sun and the waves you have to do the reverse. That's four hours of driving and setup. The following year I got a slip and sail 2-3 times a week

The costs are higher but it's well worth it. Do what's financially reasonable to you and what will allow you to enjoy sailing even more

higgs · Aug 10, 2022

I used to have my 32 foot Irwin 90 minutes from my home. I would spend every weekend aboard regardless of weather. I joined a yacht club and when I wasn't out sailing the social life at the club was a lot of fun. We also did club cruises on Lake Michigan and I forged many memories and long lasting friendships from those years. I would suggest a bigger boat with a slip on Lake Erie and spend your weekends on the boat. It will be ready to go when you step aboard. If you make the effort, you can make a lot of friends at the dock, or at a yacht club giving you a social life as well as sailing opportunities.

Tedd · Aug 10, 2022

higgs said:
If you make the effort, you can make a lot of friends at the dock, or at a yacht club giving you a social life as well as sailing opportunities.

I think this is an important consideration. For my wife and I, we basically go sailing to get away from other people. The social life of a marina would be a negative for us, not a positive. So, for us, that's yet one more tick in the plus column for trailer sailing. But lots of people like the social stuff.

stickinthemud57 · Aug 10, 2022

Echoing what higgs said, keeping your boat in a slip at the marina can be life-changing from a personal and social standpoint. In terms of things I did not "see", I would put the social aspect at the top of the list. You will meet other sailors, they will invite you to join the club, maybe do some racing, what have you. Your world will expand considerably, and priorities will shift. I'm glad I am fairly close to retiring, because I find myself caring a lot more about my boat and sailing in general and a lot less about bringing in X number of dollars a month.

Leeward Rail · Aug 10, 2022

stickinthemud57 said:
In terms of things I did not "see", I would put the social aspect at the top of the list.

This is the same for us. We didn't consider the social aspect.

One reason we sail, is to get away from "civilization". One thing that made us choose our marina, is that you can see the milky way at night. No lights. Extremely quiet and peaceful in the evenings and night.

Yet, we enjoy the wide range of people at the marina, the occasional help offered by them, etc. We have a club in the marina that is relaxed and informal. No yachties here. Just people who love sailing. Nobody is offended if you don't want to partake in any social activities.

If you do choose to use a slip with your bigger boat, and have a few marinas to choose from., keep social and practical matters in mind. For example: Can you work on the boat? How far to get supplies/food? What are the people like?

Project_Mayhem · Aug 11, 2022

I found 18 yacht clubs on my phone that appeared to be a reasonable distance from Ann Arbor, MI. I see people sailing 420's and Lasers in all kinds of weather by my marina. Even with 4ft waves and 25+ knots of wind -- these guys are crazy!

sailing the same bay every weekend
>>If you really like sailing you'll focus on that instead of what's on shore
expense - the marina expense and the purchase price don’t bother me, I fear upkeep costs
>>Not all marina's make you purchase a slip. Most are a seasonal rental
complications - bigger boats have more complicated systems! I would need to learn diesel maintenance
>>There's some 27' boats that have outboards. If you don't like diesels there's always the Atomic 4 and OMC Saildrive
the marinas we really like have long wait lists- id probably die before my number came up.
>> You never know until you try

stickinthemud57 · Aug 11, 2022

I have to commend you for your dedication. 8 hours round trip is more than I think I would do, but that's me.

Your upsides square with my experience.

Some of the downsides you mentioned can be overcome:
-Sailing the same bay. If there are other sailable bays close to your marina, and you had a boat with a swing keel or centerboard (i.e. the Mac 25 or 26), you could keep your trailer parked there and tow the boat to a different bay.
-Upkeep costs. Besides possibly motor maintenances (more on that in a minute), bottom maintenance is probably the single biggest thing. Haul-out, cleaning, painting, and re-launching can run a good deal of money. With a boat you can trailer yourself, haul-out and re-launching fees go away. Cleaning and painting you can do yourself. If you take the boat out of the water for the winter, then you don't have to clean at the beginning of the season. Yes, cleaning can be done in the slip by SCUBA divers, but I was charged $180 the one time I did it, and I was not that impressed with the job. Trailering it home for the winter gives you the opportunity to do repairs and improvements at home (assuming you have room to park it there).
-Complicated systems. For a while, my biggest headache was the electrical system, but now that everything is squared away, it has been trouble-free. My head is a portable camp-type potty - no holding tanks, plumbing or thru-hulls. One of these would do fine for a 3-day excursion. As Mayhem mentions, outboard motors are a good alternative, and if you are so inclined you can service one yourself at home in the off-season. As a rule, trailer sailers have less of these complicated systems and are more user-serviceable than cruising keel-boats.

I can think of several ways to solve the wait-list problem. One would be to buy a boat already in a slip, as most marinas will allow the new owner to take over slip rental in such instances. Another would be to find someone willing sell a share in a boat at the marina. Of course, this can be fraught, but it's commonly done. Some marinas have clubs with a "Sail Away" program, giving you access to one or more boats.

Scott T-Bird · Aug 11, 2022

john6206 said:
Hey all, thanks for the replies.

as @Scott T-Bird pointed out, I live near Ann Arbor, surrounded by Great Lakes, and pretty darn far away from any of them. there Is really no place to sail our Capri near us, our usual approach is to get a marina slip in a bay on the Great Lakes and take a weekend. drag the boat 4 hours north, take two or three days, haul it back home.

downsides:
sailing the same bay every weekend
expense - the marina expense and the purchase price don’t bother me, I fear upkeep costs
complications - bigger boats have more complicated systems! I would need to learn diesel maintenance
the marinas we really like have long wait lists- id probably die before my number came up.

You're going to struggle with many of the same things we struggle with. We drive 2 hours to get to our boat on a good day. Driving there on Friday afternoon and home Sunday afternoon is a totally different matter and Sue hates it. We have options besides driving down to Barnegat Bay but none of them are attractive enough to make a change. I think that Sue would rarely go if the drive were 4 hours. Me, I would love it if the destination were worthwhile. I'm guessing your favorite destination is Traverse City or somewhere in that vicinity. That would be my choice for sure, if my choices weren't limited by location. I don't know Lake Erie at all and hardly anything about Lake Huron. It appears to me that the closest options on those lakes are pretty limited. You'd certainly have to drive much further and around the urban areas to get to the better locations.

To me, your most logical choice would be one of the small town harbors along the south coastline of Lake Michigan. I know that coastline very well, and I would consider it just a little slice of heaven! Clear, cool, fresh water with some of the most gorgeous beaches in the entire country! Many options for marinas, and a relatively nicer drive, just over 2 hours(?). I suppose summer traffic gets pretty bad but you will never be able to avoid it. I'd be looking for any location from New Buffalo to Grand Haven!

Learning the systems on a bigger boat, including learning about the diesel, is one of the more enjoyable aspects to me in having the boat. The problem Sue has with me is that she thinks I shouldn't enjoy it so much! :facepalm:

Upkeep costs mostly depend on your due diligence during purchasing. They don't need to be any more considerable than the marina fees & insurance. The trick is in limiting what you consider necessary. I have the problem that I typically go overboard when determining what I need to do. Most of it is a matter of discipline, as Sue is trying to convince me. That goes for projects, too. She gets annoyed when I start too many things.

Sailing the same locations can get monotonous. That is a major trade off when comparing it to trailer sailing. I think the key is to vary your routine. I'm sure you could find a variety of anchorages or destinations. A bigger boat definitely gives you the feeling that your possibilities are greatly expanded! You will have much more confidence and comfort when you determine that you want to explore much more outside your usual routine.

Leeward Rail · Aug 11, 2022

john6206 said:
I think I’m about 4 years from retirement. That should open up my calendar a bit.

That definitely makes a big difference.
We have a bunch of retirees at the marina. A few have moved close to the marina permanently, now that they don't have to worry about proximity to their job.
Many stay on their boat much of the summer or venture out on the lake for a week or more.

john6206 said:
Lake Michigan towns tend to be a little exposed to high waves and big water. I still have a small boat mentality - I’ve got plenty of respect for Lake Michigan.

Lake Winnipeg has scary reputation for good reason. It is huge, shallow and prone to quick weather changes. IMO it is worse than the ocean, due to it's shallow depth.

Water ballast boats don't do well here for that reason.

One of the common boats here is the Tanzer 26. It handles the local conditions well. Better then the humans aboard can. Some of them have outboards for easier maintenance and can be trailered at the Start/end of the season., with a pickup truck for those who want to do maintenance at home.
A boat in that size range is relatively cheap, easy to maintain and sail, and can be comfy.

Yearly maintenance is not much at all, but we are allowed to do our own work on site. Pressure wash the bottom in the fall, and touch up the antifouling in the spring. Maybe your choice of marina should include that option.

On a totally different thought... What about renting a bigger boat for a week at a time? If you only get out a few times a season maybe that is a better option in regards to owning a bigger boat, until you retire.

scottscotty · Aug 11, 2022

time. age. body aches and pains. fun factor. amount of danger. effort. For me the time is critical. I took much longer to get set up when I first started trailer sailing, but wifey' and me have a set system that puts it together in less than 20 minutes now. Body pains because of our age, it definitely plays a factor of WHEN we go sailing because of the set up procedure. If setting up/taking down takes away from the enjoyment then the fun factor is going to get old. The danger that I speak of is from climbing all over a trailer sailer while on the hard. Not only am I up on the boat but should I trip, slip & fall....then I fall not only from the height of the boat but from the trailer height also. I often think of how bad the blocks' that are helping lift and hold the mast will hurt when they hit me in the head/face because I have to get amongst them while putting the forward stay pen in or out to support the mast or take it down? I speak of effort because while lifting a mast, the wind seems to want to push the mast to one side or the other while raising and I have to try and correct that. I have a precision 18 (loooove it for the simplicity of the cabin layout), but if I go much larger I too will have the weigh the ideas of my age, mine and my wife's health, the tow vehicle's ability and condition, how much climbing up and on to a boat that is swaying on a trailer while trying to sort the sheets, rigging, equipment, etc. putting up with the juveniles' at ramp who wish to block everything while they wipe down and clean their new "payment" before going to a different section of the launch to strap it down! IF I were to go larger, I would say NO trailer sailer. IF I were to continue sailing, I would YES to a larger boat. IF I were worried about the $$$ I would sale everything rt now because a boat is an acronym meaning "Break Out Another Thousand"! I am leaning towards the idea that a slip is the way to go if you are a long ways from the launch area and time on the water is valuable.
g'day