I have been looking at a variety of boats in the 26 to 30 ft range with inboards. Most of them have been equipped with Atomic 4 gas engines. My previous experience has been limited to outboards which I've sworn never to have again. However, in chatting with various folks around the docks, I have gotten the impression that boats with Atomic 4s in particular and gasoline engines in general are considerably less desirable than those with diesel. Does anyone have any opinions one way or the other?
Gas vs Diesel
- Thread starter Flashman
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Diesel
Safer by far if fumes build up. Engines are simpler, easier to repair. All trends are to deisel. Fuel is cheaper as well. Negatives: sooty and requires additives.
Safer by far if fumes build up. Engines are simpler, easier to repair. All trends are to deisel. Fuel is cheaper as well. Negatives: sooty and requires additives.
gas less desirable?
I don't think that gas is any less desirable then diesel. There is a cost factor both in purchase and resale as well as in maintance cost.Gas is more "explosive" then diesel but there are lots of gas powered boats and you will need to use the blower and care when refueling etc. Same applies for diesel (except blower not reguired by law)the boating industry has done a good job of selling diesels as a must have. The atomic four was problamatic and can still be,you will need a good mechanic or be capable yourself.But if correctly maintaned they can be reliable.Gas engine parts are less expensive to purchase and upkeep is less costly or close to same as diesel.The diesel engine is almost double the cost (new) vs. the gas engine.The real answer here is you and how capable are you (engine maintance)and how much the cost is imporatant to you.Also think about how you will be using the boat (day sailing vs extended cruising)The diesel is much better for an extended cruiser.the diesel engine will most likely be easier to resell but will also demand a high purchase cost (for you)Both engines have there advantages and disadvantages so you need to presonalize this for you, weight the + and - and make you own choice.
I don't think that gas is any less desirable then diesel. There is a cost factor both in purchase and resale as well as in maintance cost.Gas is more "explosive" then diesel but there are lots of gas powered boats and you will need to use the blower and care when refueling etc. Same applies for diesel (except blower not reguired by law)the boating industry has done a good job of selling diesels as a must have. The atomic four was problamatic and can still be,you will need a good mechanic or be capable yourself.But if correctly maintaned they can be reliable.Gas engine parts are less expensive to purchase and upkeep is less costly or close to same as diesel.The diesel engine is almost double the cost (new) vs. the gas engine.The real answer here is you and how capable are you (engine maintance)and how much the cost is imporatant to you.Also think about how you will be using the boat (day sailing vs extended cruising)The diesel is much better for an extended cruiser.the diesel engine will most likely be easier to resell but will also demand a high purchase cost (for you)Both engines have there advantages and disadvantages so you need to presonalize this for you, weight the + and - and make you own choice.
Agree with Pete. There is a lot of
support and parts available for the A-4. I wouldn't be afraid of it. A propane stove is more explosive. Our boat has a diesel and there are times I wish we had the gas engine for our type of boating. We only use the engine to get in and out of our river to the lake - half hour each way max. Not good for diesel but fine for gas.
support and parts available for the A-4. I wouldn't be afraid of it. A propane stove is more explosive. Our boat has a diesel and there are times I wish we had the gas engine for our type of boating. We only use the engine to get in and out of our river to the lake - half hour each way max. Not good for diesel but fine for gas.
Wow
Flashman, You just stumbled on a hot button. People are very opinionated one way or the other. Diesel advocates will talk of improved resale value, safety, fuel economy, overall longevity & reliability. Gas advocates will say that the cost to replace an Atomic 4 could run you as much as $12k and it's just not worth it. A properly maintained gas engine will be safe, reliable and will easily do the job. At the end of the day, it's really a personal decision. I prefer diesel engines because they are more reliable. You don't have to worry about corroded ignition components, wet distributors, etc. I use my boat a LOT and I don't want to have to wonder what will happen when I press that "start" button, especially in foul weather when I really need it. I know others will think differently, but if I want to get the most reliable, safest engine I'll pay the extra $$ for a diesel. If you want to save a few bucks, you can get a boat with a reliable Atomic 4 for less, but you'll also have a tougher time selling it. Whether it's justified or not, I know of a significant number of people who simply would never consider buying a boat with a gas inboard auxilliary. Before all of you gas advocates get offended at this, you have to realize that gas powered boats don't depreciate quicker because there are more people who prefer gas. They depreciate faster because there are more people who prefer diesel. Just my 2 cents, of course...I hope this helps! Allen Schweitzer s/v Falstaff C-30 Hull# 632
Flashman, You just stumbled on a hot button. People are very opinionated one way or the other. Diesel advocates will talk of improved resale value, safety, fuel economy, overall longevity & reliability. Gas advocates will say that the cost to replace an Atomic 4 could run you as much as $12k and it's just not worth it. A properly maintained gas engine will be safe, reliable and will easily do the job. At the end of the day, it's really a personal decision. I prefer diesel engines because they are more reliable. You don't have to worry about corroded ignition components, wet distributors, etc. I use my boat a LOT and I don't want to have to wonder what will happen when I press that "start" button, especially in foul weather when I really need it. I know others will think differently, but if I want to get the most reliable, safest engine I'll pay the extra $$ for a diesel. If you want to save a few bucks, you can get a boat with a reliable Atomic 4 for less, but you'll also have a tougher time selling it. Whether it's justified or not, I know of a significant number of people who simply would never consider buying a boat with a gas inboard auxilliary. Before all of you gas advocates get offended at this, you have to realize that gas powered boats don't depreciate quicker because there are more people who prefer gas. They depreciate faster because there are more people who prefer diesel. Just my 2 cents, of course...I hope this helps! Allen Schweitzer s/v Falstaff C-30 Hull# 632
All the responders make good points. My view is that diesels are safer and MUCH easier to resell. Here is a question to ask yourself: when was the last time a boat builder installed a gas engine in a new boat? The answer is a looooooooooooooooooong time ago. Can all those boat builders be wrong?
I meant to add in my previous post "sailboats," as I realize that many new powerboats are gas powered. But then, again, I have never understood powerboats or the people who buy and use them.....
New boats w/Gasoline
> Here is a question to ask yourself: when was the > last time a boat builder installed a gas engine > in a new boat? The answer is a You can buy lots and lots of new boats with iboard gas engines. They are all powerboats! Why is is that gasoline is OK for powerboats, but not for sailboats? Barry
> Here is a question to ask yourself: when was the > last time a boat builder installed a gas engine > in a new boat? The answer is a You can buy lots and lots of new boats with iboard gas engines. They are all powerboats! Why is is that gasoline is OK for powerboats, but not for sailboats? Barry
Barry, it's because sailboats are displacement
hulls. High speed won't happen. Most power boats plane so some builders, to save a buck, still sell gas engines. I've had a gas hotrod V8 ski-boat (I built it) and gas Atomic 4s. Allen, that's how I learned that 'reliable Atomic 4', is an oxymoron. My crankshaft broke in the wilds of Canada. That engine was impeccably maintained by me. The reason the crank broke? No center main bearings. Yep, one at the front, one at the back. All four rods are UNSUPPORTED! The Atomic 4 is a 1920s design. I could go on for hours,,, Flashman, if you have to ask, DON'T BUY ONE! P.S. As far as parts cost. That cast crank was five times more money than the forged steel crank of a big block Chevy. One main bearing cost five times more money than the ENTIRE SET of bearings for that same Chevy. Cheap Atomic 4 parts? Maybe the spark plugs. But then too, those are a hell of a lot cheaper if you buy the diesel boat.
hulls. High speed won't happen. Most power boats plane so some builders, to save a buck, still sell gas engines. I've had a gas hotrod V8 ski-boat (I built it) and gas Atomic 4s. Allen, that's how I learned that 'reliable Atomic 4', is an oxymoron. My crankshaft broke in the wilds of Canada. That engine was impeccably maintained by me. The reason the crank broke? No center main bearings. Yep, one at the front, one at the back. All four rods are UNSUPPORTED! The Atomic 4 is a 1920s design. I could go on for hours,,, Flashman, if you have to ask, DON'T BUY ONE! P.S. As far as parts cost. That cast crank was five times more money than the forged steel crank of a big block Chevy. One main bearing cost five times more money than the ENTIRE SET of bearings for that same Chevy. Cheap Atomic 4 parts? Maybe the spark plugs. But then too, those are a hell of a lot cheaper if you buy the diesel boat.
If I was getting a new boat I'd desire deisel
for all the reasons listed previously. But if I trully fell in love with a boat and it had an Atomic 4 gas engine in it and it was well maintained and ran well, then I wouldn't go to the hassle or expense to replace it. Many boats are still running fine with the Atomic 4 and I can hazard a guess that more Atomic 4's were placed in Auxiliary Sailboats than any other engine. BUT, if it didn't start easily or run well, or if it looks like its a mess and not well maintained then I would lower the price I'd offer for the boat (Unless of course thats already factored in). I think you can find drop in replacement deisel engines from Universal/Westerbeke to make it easy to replace the Atomic 4. Like it was said before that'll probably run maybe $8-11 grand. If you are handy you might be able to do it yourself and save some money. Another option is to find a very good and thorough Atomic 4 mechanic and have him rebuild the Engine etc. That might be a **Lot** more cost effective Bottom line -- in the back of my mind I like the inherently safer simpler, non carburator, longer lasting deisel engines.
for all the reasons listed previously. But if I trully fell in love with a boat and it had an Atomic 4 gas engine in it and it was well maintained and ran well, then I wouldn't go to the hassle or expense to replace it. Many boats are still running fine with the Atomic 4 and I can hazard a guess that more Atomic 4's were placed in Auxiliary Sailboats than any other engine. BUT, if it didn't start easily or run well, or if it looks like its a mess and not well maintained then I would lower the price I'd offer for the boat (Unless of course thats already factored in). I think you can find drop in replacement deisel engines from Universal/Westerbeke to make it easy to replace the Atomic 4. Like it was said before that'll probably run maybe $8-11 grand. If you are handy you might be able to do it yourself and save some money. Another option is to find a very good and thorough Atomic 4 mechanic and have him rebuild the Engine etc. That might be a **Lot** more cost effective Bottom line -- in the back of my mind I like the inherently safer simpler, non carburator, longer lasting deisel engines.
How often
do sailboats blow up due to gas explosions? Could someone supply statistics to provide a little better explanation of the real life risk? Do insurance companies classify sailboats with gas inboards any differently than those with diesel? Rather than go with stories, anecdotal information or hearsay, can we get down to the bottom line facts and stats on safety?
do sailboats blow up due to gas explosions? Could someone supply statistics to provide a little better explanation of the real life risk? Do insurance companies classify sailboats with gas inboards any differently than those with diesel? Rather than go with stories, anecdotal information or hearsay, can we get down to the bottom line facts and stats on safety?
Bill all you need to do is go to Boat US
They have the statistics for their own individual insurers. I bet if you called and asked what the insurance was on a boat with Gas and the same boat for diesel you might get a **slightly** different quote. As far as fires - Not sure if they break down sailboats vs all boats but it does happen. It is much more likely to have a fire due to poor wiring BUT once you have a gasoline fire its a much worse fire and you are much more likely to lose your boat. (95% of fuel-related fires were caused by gasoline). Typical problem areas are fuel lines, connections on the engine itself, and leaking fuel tanks. A gas leak has to be taken seriously since it has the potential to explode and destroy a boat – that’s why it’s critical to run the bilge blower for four or five minutes before starting the engine. Remember Diesel is not immune from igniting either – one fire was started when a ruptured line sprayed fuel on a hot manifold. But its much more rare. http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/fire/default.asp Causes of Fires Started Aboard (Claims only Not in the seriousness of fire) 1)AC and DC wiring/appliance 55% 2) Engine/Transmission Overheat 24% 3) Fuel Leak 8% 4) Miscellaneous 7% 5) Unknown 5% 6) Stove 1%
They have the statistics for their own individual insurers. I bet if you called and asked what the insurance was on a boat with Gas and the same boat for diesel you might get a **slightly** different quote. As far as fires - Not sure if they break down sailboats vs all boats but it does happen. It is much more likely to have a fire due to poor wiring BUT once you have a gasoline fire its a much worse fire and you are much more likely to lose your boat. (95% of fuel-related fires were caused by gasoline). Typical problem areas are fuel lines, connections on the engine itself, and leaking fuel tanks. A gas leak has to be taken seriously since it has the potential to explode and destroy a boat – that’s why it’s critical to run the bilge blower for four or five minutes before starting the engine. Remember Diesel is not immune from igniting either – one fire was started when a ruptured line sprayed fuel on a hot manifold. But its much more rare. http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/fire/default.asp Causes of Fires Started Aboard (Claims only Not in the seriousness of fire) 1)AC and DC wiring/appliance 55% 2) Engine/Transmission Overheat 24% 3) Fuel Leak 8% 4) Miscellaneous 7% 5) Unknown 5% 6) Stove 1%
Diesel envy?
Some informative links: Myths - http://www.yachtsurvey.com/GasDiesel.htm Atomic energy - http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/atomic4.htm Switch? - http://www.boats.com/content/default_detail.jsp?contentid=12287 Fueling precautions - http://www.captdonfleming.com/fuel.html More on choice - http://www.boats.com/content/default_detail.jsp?contentid=1881 Happy sails *_/), MArk
Some informative links: Myths - http://www.yachtsurvey.com/GasDiesel.htm Atomic energy - http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/atomic4.htm Switch? - http://www.boats.com/content/default_detail.jsp?contentid=12287 Fueling precautions - http://www.captdonfleming.com/fuel.html More on choice - http://www.boats.com/content/default_detail.jsp?contentid=1881 Happy sails *_/), MArk
Explosive vs. Flamable
Great idea, fact vs. fiction. Not sure of the stats on the insurance risks and exposure, but as a safety professional for over a decade, I've had some experience dealing with the liability surrounding gasoline and diesel. The first web page I found was: http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/nov2001/1004991364.Ch.r.html and contained the following, ". . . all gasolines and similar hydrocarbon liquids will have flash points below the freezing point of water. This means that at ANY reasonable ambient temperature, there are dangerous quantities of fumes above any substantial amount of the gasoline." What does this mean? Well, liquid gasoline isn't the problem; it's the vapors just above the surface. Gasoline burns real fast - so fast, in fact, that the burning is better described as an explosion, which is actually just rapid combustion. The 'boom' from a gasoline explosion (real fast burning process) is a result of the surrounding air being pushed outward from the rapidly expanding, burning gasoline vapors. This process is so powerful; it will turn a fiberglass/wood boat into splinters in an instant. Here’s the catch. The gasoline vapors are heaver then air and will collect in your bilge. This vapor is what ignites in the low center of your vessel. I recall picking-up pieces of a 45’ wood cruiser that drifted ashore after she exploded from such a ‘rapid burn’ of the trapped vapors in her bilge. The MSDS information on regular unleaded posted on http://hazard.com/msds/f2/bhf/bhfxy.html Is as follows: “Unusual Fire/Explosion Hazard: VAPORS ARE HEAVIER THAN AIR, ACCUMULATING IN LOW AREAS, TRAVELING ALONG GROUND AND MAY FLASH BACK FROM DISTANT IGNITION SOURCE.” This means that anywhere you have gasoline stored: your boat or even your garage for example, this trapped vapor may exist. Combine that with a spark from a broken spark lead on an inboard, or a pilot light on a gas water heater and boom! That’s one reason that you’ll find fewer boats with gasoline inboards and the water heaters in newer homes mounted almost a foot above the floor – just in case your garage remains closed with your stored lawn mower fuel can. As far as diesel, this stuff’s certainly flammable, but not explosive. In other words, diesel will burn, but not as fast as gasoline – you almost have to give it a kick to ignite (glow plugs. . .) To give you an idea of the difference, in a gasoline car engine, the typical compression ratio in the engine is 8:1. In a diesel it’s around 23:1 taking more pressure on the diesel to create a usable burn in the engine. Go with the diesel if you’re getting an inboard. I’d avoid the gas like a plaque. You guys reading this with a gas inboard probably are taking ample precautions like a ventilated bilge, etc. to reduce the possibility of vapors collecting and waiting for that spark. Please be careful with gasoline. It’s as safe as you make it. Besides, you’re in far greater danger of maiming simply driving to your boat to enjoy a sail then you are of having your boat explode. Never the less, the risk is real.
Great idea, fact vs. fiction. Not sure of the stats on the insurance risks and exposure, but as a safety professional for over a decade, I've had some experience dealing with the liability surrounding gasoline and diesel. The first web page I found was: http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/nov2001/1004991364.Ch.r.html and contained the following, ". . . all gasolines and similar hydrocarbon liquids will have flash points below the freezing point of water. This means that at ANY reasonable ambient temperature, there are dangerous quantities of fumes above any substantial amount of the gasoline." What does this mean? Well, liquid gasoline isn't the problem; it's the vapors just above the surface. Gasoline burns real fast - so fast, in fact, that the burning is better described as an explosion, which is actually just rapid combustion. The 'boom' from a gasoline explosion (real fast burning process) is a result of the surrounding air being pushed outward from the rapidly expanding, burning gasoline vapors. This process is so powerful; it will turn a fiberglass/wood boat into splinters in an instant. Here’s the catch. The gasoline vapors are heaver then air and will collect in your bilge. This vapor is what ignites in the low center of your vessel. I recall picking-up pieces of a 45’ wood cruiser that drifted ashore after she exploded from such a ‘rapid burn’ of the trapped vapors in her bilge. The MSDS information on regular unleaded posted on http://hazard.com/msds/f2/bhf/bhfxy.html Is as follows: “Unusual Fire/Explosion Hazard: VAPORS ARE HEAVIER THAN AIR, ACCUMULATING IN LOW AREAS, TRAVELING ALONG GROUND AND MAY FLASH BACK FROM DISTANT IGNITION SOURCE.” This means that anywhere you have gasoline stored: your boat or even your garage for example, this trapped vapor may exist. Combine that with a spark from a broken spark lead on an inboard, or a pilot light on a gas water heater and boom! That’s one reason that you’ll find fewer boats with gasoline inboards and the water heaters in newer homes mounted almost a foot above the floor – just in case your garage remains closed with your stored lawn mower fuel can. As far as diesel, this stuff’s certainly flammable, but not explosive. In other words, diesel will burn, but not as fast as gasoline – you almost have to give it a kick to ignite (glow plugs. . .) To give you an idea of the difference, in a gasoline car engine, the typical compression ratio in the engine is 8:1. In a diesel it’s around 23:1 taking more pressure on the diesel to create a usable burn in the engine. Go with the diesel if you’re getting an inboard. I’d avoid the gas like a plaque. You guys reading this with a gas inboard probably are taking ample precautions like a ventilated bilge, etc. to reduce the possibility of vapors collecting and waiting for that spark. Please be careful with gasoline. It’s as safe as you make it. Besides, you’re in far greater danger of maiming simply driving to your boat to enjoy a sail then you are of having your boat explode. Never the less, the risk is real.
Excellent ! (Michael)
MICHAEL: Excellent description of the Gas vs Diesel rapid combustion principle. Thanx for a clearly stated tutorial. Gord
MICHAEL: Excellent description of the Gas vs Diesel rapid combustion principle. Thanx for a clearly stated tutorial. Gord
No real sailboat stats...
with comparative numbers. I would certainly expect that there would be a higher number of fuel fires in boats due to gasoline. When we consider that probably 99% of all pleasure craft are gasoline powered, especially when we consider all the outboards out there, the accident rate (everything else being equal) should lean toward more fuel-related accidents for gasoline. But there does not seem to be any evidence that the sailboats with gasoline-powered inboards have a greater rate of fires or fuel-related accidents than diesel. I'm not saying that I'm contradicting the chemical properties of either fuel. BTW, our insurance broker says that his tables don't indicate a difference in rates that would be reflective of higher risk.
with comparative numbers. I would certainly expect that there would be a higher number of fuel fires in boats due to gasoline. When we consider that probably 99% of all pleasure craft are gasoline powered, especially when we consider all the outboards out there, the accident rate (everything else being equal) should lean toward more fuel-related accidents for gasoline. But there does not seem to be any evidence that the sailboats with gasoline-powered inboards have a greater rate of fires or fuel-related accidents than diesel. I'm not saying that I'm contradicting the chemical properties of either fuel. BTW, our insurance broker says that his tables don't indicate a difference in rates that would be reflective of higher risk.
Bill,
Don't take this wrong but you would flunk debate class in high school. You didn't say anything that is verifiable or referable. And what insurance company? What do they insure, houseplants or jewelry? Ninety nine percent of pleasure boats are gasoline? What planet do you live on? The vast majority of gas boats around here are outboards. Most fuel docks sell primarily diesel if not exclusively diesel. The simple fact that all sailboats made today and for the past several decades are built with diesel engines would also skew your insurance loss tables when looking to compare with gasoline sailboat losses. Most of those old gas sailboats don't have insurance. Ask the skippers. Don't forget to ask why not. You might find that it's not only age and low value but the gasoline engine. Besides, we were talking about Atomic 4s detonating.
Don't take this wrong but you would flunk debate class in high school. You didn't say anything that is verifiable or referable. And what insurance company? What do they insure, houseplants or jewelry? Ninety nine percent of pleasure boats are gasoline? What planet do you live on? The vast majority of gas boats around here are outboards. Most fuel docks sell primarily diesel if not exclusively diesel. The simple fact that all sailboats made today and for the past several decades are built with diesel engines would also skew your insurance loss tables when looking to compare with gasoline sailboat losses. Most of those old gas sailboats don't have insurance. Ask the skippers. Don't forget to ask why not. You might find that it's not only age and low value but the gasoline engine. Besides, we were talking about Atomic 4s detonating.
Older Boats
You'll find that the boats with Atomic 4s are generally older boats and that the same vintage boats with Diesels will have relatively small ones (such as the Universal 5411 11hp in my 1981 Catalina 30). This means that the Atomic 4 boats have more horsepower, which is a plus that I haven't seen mentioned in earlier postings. An Atomic 4 equipped Catalina 30 has more horsepower than it needs. As you move on to newer boats, you'll find more powerful Diesels. Although I prefer Diesels for many of the reasons cited by others, if I was looking at older boats and found a good one with a well maintained Atomic 4, I wouldn't pass it up. By the way, as gasoline engines go, Atomic 4s are relatively simple. I've been told that they're very similar to early Ford Model A engines. I believe that they were originally designed for lifeboats.
You'll find that the boats with Atomic 4s are generally older boats and that the same vintage boats with Diesels will have relatively small ones (such as the Universal 5411 11hp in my 1981 Catalina 30). This means that the Atomic 4 boats have more horsepower, which is a plus that I haven't seen mentioned in earlier postings. An Atomic 4 equipped Catalina 30 has more horsepower than it needs. As you move on to newer boats, you'll find more powerful Diesels. Although I prefer Diesels for many of the reasons cited by others, if I was looking at older boats and found a good one with a well maintained Atomic 4, I wouldn't pass it up. By the way, as gasoline engines go, Atomic 4s are relatively simple. I've been told that they're very similar to early Ford Model A engines. I believe that they were originally designed for lifeboats.
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