I just bought a 28.5 and am pondering getting rid of the furler that's on it. Thought I'd get some opinions regarding what you all like best and what might be best for me. The headsail inventory on this boat consists of one 150% dacron genoa (RF, no foam luff), one hank-on 110% dacron jib and one hank-on dacron storm jib. All three sails are in good, but not great condition. I've never had a furler on any previous boats and am concerned about sail shape issues with reefing using a furler. My gut instincts (as well as some other racing sailors) tells me I'd be happier without the furler. I know the furlers are convenient for cruising, but I've never had a problem with changing hanked-on headsails when the weather calls for it. In fact, I've always been pretty good about weather watching and choosing the correct sail before leaving the dock anyway. That's not to say I haven't had to reef down, but it doesn't happen very often. I want to invest in some new sails, but I need to make this furler decision on headsails before I pull the trigger on a purchase. If I dump the furler, I've got two servicable headsails in the 110% jib and the storm jib that I can use. A new 150-155% would give me a reasonable headsail inventory to start out with. I want to get a performance headsail, most likely a UK tape drive. I want the best speed I can get out of the boat to extend my daily range. I'd also like to participate in some racing as well. Any opinions out there given my inventory and situation? Any opinions on what I might get out of a used Hood single-line furler and genoa? (the furler is in excellent condition, genoa in good condition) Thanks, Dave
Furling vs. Hanked-on Headsails
- Thread starter Dave9990
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You don't mention
the size of you previous boat. As you move to larger boats, a furling system becomes more beneficial. As one walks the floats of my marina, only one sailboat above 30 feet can be found without RF. It's a 75 year old wood boat. Gorgeous.
the size of you previous boat. As you move to larger boats, a furling system becomes more beneficial. As one walks the floats of my marina, only one sailboat above 30 feet can be found without RF. It's a 75 year old wood boat. Gorgeous.
Your plans
They type of sailing you plan to do would be the best determiniate on whether to keep the furler or not. Since you stated that you plan to race, then IMHO you want hank on foresails. The hank on sails can be converted to roller furling, but your right about changes. It takes time. However, a furled sail can be reefed merely by furling it. the sail is as efficent, but furling it is safer in rough water. That is why a furler is so popular with cruising sailors. It eliminates a trip to the foredeck. Your decision is whether to take the furler off and store for racing, or put it on and cruise. You actually have the option of the best of both worlds: racing sails or cruising sails. I would go with an asymetrical spinnaker before I spend the money on a 150% or 155% genny. Then, you keep your 110% and have it converted to RF. You can add foam luff. And, changing sails between the furled 110% and the spinnaker would be fast. IMHO
They type of sailing you plan to do would be the best determiniate on whether to keep the furler or not. Since you stated that you plan to race, then IMHO you want hank on foresails. The hank on sails can be converted to roller furling, but your right about changes. It takes time. However, a furled sail can be reefed merely by furling it. the sail is as efficent, but furling it is safer in rough water. That is why a furler is so popular with cruising sailors. It eliminates a trip to the foredeck. Your decision is whether to take the furler off and store for racing, or put it on and cruise. You actually have the option of the best of both worlds: racing sails or cruising sails. I would go with an asymetrical spinnaker before I spend the money on a 150% or 155% genny. Then, you keep your 110% and have it converted to RF. You can add foam luff. And, changing sails between the furled 110% and the spinnaker would be fast. IMHO
What I think
Hey Dave, As you know I am not a big fan of RF. All from a performance point of view. I strive to have my boat saliing in trim all the time. It is part of my learning process in how to make the boat sail as fast as possible all the time. This way I keep learing how to make the boat go. I do race but not as much as I would Like. I tend to do about 4-6 regatta's a season and then race a Sunfish during the week close to home. On a RF sail it is best to have it rolled out all the way or maybe just rolled down to a 140% after you go beyond a # 2 size or a 135% you really don't have good sail shape at all. You also have this big rolled up sail that is killing your pointing. You saw my sail's and I think your wind range is going to be close you our's. It seems it is either a light to medium air day or it is with out a question a blade or 108% for us day. When racing you will lose some sail area and the amount you get for a credit on light air days is just not enough it comes out to about 12 sq. feet of sail area lost from a hanked on to a RF sail. Plus you are dealing with a sail that is made a little heavier then a hanked on sail because it needs to be used when it is blowing 5 knots or 25 knot's. Getting you RF sail recut to a Hanked on sail is no big deal. It just needs to have the luff redone and hanks added. If you were to buy a new racing 155 then you older dacron sail can be used for crusing and keep the racing sail just for racing. If doing this the racing sail will last a very long time. Also when it is blowing 20 knots and your 15 miles from home and it is a beat all the way home you want a flat as a board head sail with some battens in it and it will be a fun ride the boat will point higher then you ever thought and will scream to weather. I don't think this would be the case with a RF head sail rolled up to a 100 %. As you can tell I am not a fan of RF but this is just my thoughts. For some that are cruisers it is worth every penny it cost and some would never ever not have it. From a racing stand point the Hanked on Sail will be faster all the time. Cliff
Hey Dave, As you know I am not a big fan of RF. All from a performance point of view. I strive to have my boat saliing in trim all the time. It is part of my learning process in how to make the boat sail as fast as possible all the time. This way I keep learing how to make the boat go. I do race but not as much as I would Like. I tend to do about 4-6 regatta's a season and then race a Sunfish during the week close to home. On a RF sail it is best to have it rolled out all the way or maybe just rolled down to a 140% after you go beyond a # 2 size or a 135% you really don't have good sail shape at all. You also have this big rolled up sail that is killing your pointing. You saw my sail's and I think your wind range is going to be close you our's. It seems it is either a light to medium air day or it is with out a question a blade or 108% for us day. When racing you will lose some sail area and the amount you get for a credit on light air days is just not enough it comes out to about 12 sq. feet of sail area lost from a hanked on to a RF sail. Plus you are dealing with a sail that is made a little heavier then a hanked on sail because it needs to be used when it is blowing 5 knots or 25 knot's. Getting you RF sail recut to a Hanked on sail is no big deal. It just needs to have the luff redone and hanks added. If you were to buy a new racing 155 then you older dacron sail can be used for crusing and keep the racing sail just for racing. If doing this the racing sail will last a very long time. Also when it is blowing 20 knots and your 15 miles from home and it is a beat all the way home you want a flat as a board head sail with some battens in it and it will be a fun ride the boat will point higher then you ever thought and will scream to weather. I don't think this would be the case with a RF head sail rolled up to a 100 %. As you can tell I am not a fan of RF but this is just my thoughts. For some that are cruisers it is worth every penny it cost and some would never ever not have it. From a racing stand point the Hanked on Sail will be faster all the time. Cliff
Furling
I, too, have a H28.5 with the Hood LD furler. I'm about to give it away free and replace it with a Furlex system. The Hood furler is just that: a furler. It is not a reliable reefing system and is no longer even mentioned by Hood as a reefing system. I also think you would have a hard time selling this system for much unless you found someone who needed it for parts. I don't race much anymore, but I now have a 150 furling headsail with a foam luff. This sail will reef down to just about any size and keep a decent shape. I think the really serious racers of the H28.5 do not have furlers; some have tape drives. My guess is that boats with furlers/reefers are a bit slower upwind than those without them. To me, the key is what kind of tradeoffs you want to make to go a bit faster.....In my case, I would vote for the furler every time. The safety, convenience, and potential resale value of the boat are worth more to me than gaining a tenth of a knot of boat speed now and then.
I, too, have a H28.5 with the Hood LD furler. I'm about to give it away free and replace it with a Furlex system. The Hood furler is just that: a furler. It is not a reliable reefing system and is no longer even mentioned by Hood as a reefing system. I also think you would have a hard time selling this system for much unless you found someone who needed it for parts. I don't race much anymore, but I now have a 150 furling headsail with a foam luff. This sail will reef down to just about any size and keep a decent shape. I think the really serious racers of the H28.5 do not have furlers; some have tape drives. My guess is that boats with furlers/reefers are a bit slower upwind than those without them. To me, the key is what kind of tradeoffs you want to make to go a bit faster.....In my case, I would vote for the furler every time. The safety, convenience, and potential resale value of the boat are worth more to me than gaining a tenth of a knot of boat speed now and then.
OK Dave. Before you make a move, hitch a few
rides on RF boats and compare. Also check out the foils like those on Harken systems. They are 'race style', meaning that the foil is aerodynamic. It adds to the sail length without measurement penalty, plus it has twin groves for inside-out sail changes. You can't do that with hanks. Keep in mind that R&D has perfected RF. There is no reason to go back wards with your boat whether you race or cruise. Oh, IMHO.
rides on RF boats and compare. Also check out the foils like those on Harken systems. They are 'race style', meaning that the foil is aerodynamic. It adds to the sail length without measurement penalty, plus it has twin groves for inside-out sail changes. You can't do that with hanks. Keep in mind that R&D has perfected RF. There is no reason to go back wards with your boat whether you race or cruise. Oh, IMHO.
Mike,
Mike, You make a good point about the spinaker. I'm definately considering getting one of those as well. Something that just occurred to me is that I could invest in the spinaker first, try the furler for a season to see how it works and if I like it or not. If I decide to drop the furler for next season, it won't affect the spinaker decision at all. You mentioned that a reefed headsail via furling is just as efficient. Is that really true? I've read a lot of posts regarding issues with the shape when reefed. I know this can be somewhat rememdied with luff foam. Can a furled headsail luff be tightened when reefed to control draft position?
Mike, You make a good point about the spinaker. I'm definately considering getting one of those as well. Something that just occurred to me is that I could invest in the spinaker first, try the furler for a season to see how it works and if I like it or not. If I decide to drop the furler for next season, it won't affect the spinaker decision at all. You mentioned that a reefed headsail via furling is just as efficient. Is that really true? I've read a lot of posts regarding issues with the shape when reefed. I know this can be somewhat rememdied with luff foam. Can a furled headsail luff be tightened when reefed to control draft position?
Cliff,
Cliff, As always, thanks for your input. Technically, I already knew that a furled headsail probably can't perform as well as a hanked on sail. Especially when reefed. My gut still tells me that I'd like to go with the hanked on sails. However, since I have virtually no experience with a furler, I don't want to write it off without hearing some more about their benefits as well as just how much they degrade performance.
Cliff, As always, thanks for your input. Technically, I already knew that a furled headsail probably can't perform as well as a hanked on sail. Especially when reefed. My gut still tells me that I'd like to go with the hanked on sails. However, since I have virtually no experience with a furler, I don't want to write it off without hearing some more about their benefits as well as just how much they degrade performance.
Warren,
Warren, What about the Hood makes it unreliable as a reefing system? This is something I didn't expect to hear. I certainly don't want to get caught in increasing winds with the furler that won't reef. Do you have any details on this?
Warren, What about the Hood makes it unreliable as a reefing system? This is something I didn't expect to hear. I certainly don't want to get caught in increasing winds with the furler that won't reef. Do you have any details on this?
Dave,
I meant to say that a furled sail is not as efficent. Oops. Someone stated the reason. The sail loses its shape.
I meant to say that a furled sail is not as efficent. Oops. Someone stated the reason. The sail loses its shape.
Racing a cruiser
I've had a 28.5 set up for racing since new in '86. Never have had a problem, even single handing, with a HeadFoil system and luff tape head sails which include a 155% mylar, a 135% Mylar Dacron triradial, and the 'original' 110. One point no one else made: the deep keel boat with luff tape sails will out point and out run the roller furler boats and will clearly out point the shoal draft boats. If you've raced successfully you already know you don't have a problem changing sails up or down with a luff tape system. I would have more fear of that older roller furler jambing up in windy conditions than my own ability to go forward on a pitching deck and drop either Genoa when I have too, but I'm also set up to tighten the backstay adjuster and flatten or reef the main quickly so I may not need a headsail change. I certainly would not plan on 'reefing down' an older roller furling 150 because the sail shape will be at it's worst just when you need it to be flat. You'd be better off dropping it and re-hoisting a 110; and maybe that's your best approach untill you really know what you want and what kind of wind conditions you will be sailing typically.
I've had a 28.5 set up for racing since new in '86. Never have had a problem, even single handing, with a HeadFoil system and luff tape head sails which include a 155% mylar, a 135% Mylar Dacron triradial, and the 'original' 110. One point no one else made: the deep keel boat with luff tape sails will out point and out run the roller furler boats and will clearly out point the shoal draft boats. If you've raced successfully you already know you don't have a problem changing sails up or down with a luff tape system. I would have more fear of that older roller furler jambing up in windy conditions than my own ability to go forward on a pitching deck and drop either Genoa when I have too, but I'm also set up to tighten the backstay adjuster and flatten or reef the main quickly so I may not need a headsail change. I certainly would not plan on 'reefing down' an older roller furling 150 because the sail shape will be at it's worst just when you need it to be flat. You'd be better off dropping it and re-hoisting a 110; and maybe that's your best approach untill you really know what you want and what kind of wind conditions you will be sailing typically.
Yeah but, who does that?
When the wind pipes up, I can't imagine going forward with a 150% genoa fully deployed and then dropping it, raising a smaller sail and reeving sheets. All in a blow on a pitching deck when all I really have to do is roll it in a little. Sure, it won't win the Americas Cup but, again, who does that? And a foil genoa is more efficient than a hanked on genoa. When's the last time you saw a hotshot racer using hanks?
When the wind pipes up, I can't imagine going forward with a 150% genoa fully deployed and then dropping it, raising a smaller sail and reeving sheets. All in a blow on a pitching deck when all I really have to do is roll it in a little. Sure, it won't win the Americas Cup but, again, who does that? And a foil genoa is more efficient than a hanked on genoa. When's the last time you saw a hotshot racer using hanks?
When's the last time you saw a hotshot racer using
I do this every weekend and I have a wife who climbs up on the bow in 6-8 foot Lake Erie Waves to do it. I could give you a list of PHRF Sailors who do just what your not wanting to, do all the time. A hanked on sail will out peform a rolled up sail all day long. We will also get more then a tenth of a knot in boat speed doing it. Yes a a foil for the luff grove is better like on a Tuff Luff Foil, but it also has it's down side. I passed on the Tuff Luff foil for our boat because when the sail comes down it also comes off the head stay. We have a 28.5 that might be the most tricked out 28.5 out ther we race and win, (we took 1st and 2nd in everything we raced in last year) I would not consider myself a "Hot Shot Racer" But I have a boat that sure beats allot of boat's, we have beating allot of boats boat for boat that owe us time with our hanked on head sail's. Hey Fred, Since you wont's go forward when it's blowing and you have a pitching deck what happens when the RF jams and you can't get it to roll up? Cliff
I do this every weekend and I have a wife who climbs up on the bow in 6-8 foot Lake Erie Waves to do it. I could give you a list of PHRF Sailors who do just what your not wanting to, do all the time. A hanked on sail will out peform a rolled up sail all day long. We will also get more then a tenth of a knot in boat speed doing it. Yes a a foil for the luff grove is better like on a Tuff Luff Foil, but it also has it's down side. I passed on the Tuff Luff foil for our boat because when the sail comes down it also comes off the head stay. We have a 28.5 that might be the most tricked out 28.5 out ther we race and win, (we took 1st and 2nd in everything we raced in last year) I would not consider myself a "Hot Shot Racer" But I have a boat that sure beats allot of boat's, we have beating allot of boats boat for boat that owe us time with our hanked on head sail's. Hey Fred, Since you wont's go forward when it's blowing and you have a pitching deck what happens when the RF jams and you can't get it to roll up? Cliff
28.5 Web Site
Well Dave, It looks like you got your money's worth on this thread. Presumably you will make the connection you need for either max performance or something of a compromise. None the less, we have a separate web site you might like to join specific to the 28.5's: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/huntertwentyeightfive. Hook up with Cliff who started the site + Warren and myself and about 75 others.
Well Dave, It looks like you got your money's worth on this thread. Presumably you will make the connection you need for either max performance or something of a compromise. None the less, we have a separate web site you might like to join specific to the 28.5's: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/huntertwentyeightfive. Hook up with Cliff who started the site + Warren and myself and about 75 others.
Corrected Web Site
Sorry about that, let's try again: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/huntertwentyeightfive
Sorry about that, let's try again: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/huntertwentyeightfive
Cliff, I NEVER SAID a rolled up sail will out per-
form a hanked on sail. And swapping a sail in a blow is the reason roller furling/reefing was perfected; so guys like me with various afflictions like MS can get out there. Sure, your wife can no doubt outperform me but in my day I used to shinny up bare shrouds to repair a broken spreader. But that was then. I'm sure your wife could do that too. And I've never, in 20 years of ownership of my Harken system, had it jam. It has two groves too, for inside-out sail changes, if the crew CHOOSES.
form a hanked on sail. And swapping a sail in a blow is the reason roller furling/reefing was perfected; so guys like me with various afflictions like MS can get out there. Sure, your wife can no doubt outperform me but in my day I used to shinny up bare shrouds to repair a broken spreader. But that was then. I'm sure your wife could do that too. And I've never, in 20 years of ownership of my Harken system, had it jam. It has two groves too, for inside-out sail changes, if the crew CHOOSES.
Responses
Thanks to everyone for the lively discussion. I can certainly see and understand everyone's point of view. I created this thread with the thought that I'd be removing the furler and going with hanks. I believe that's the direction I'm going to take. While furlers seem to work well for a lot of sailors, I'm going with what I know and what my experience has been. The benefits of which are well stated in this thread and others. The only drawback with hanks that I can see is having to change down in a blow. However, when I'm cruising or daysailing, I've always been a "reef early" type of sailor. That helps to keep the "crew" happy and it's not such a wild ride up on the bow changing sails. Racing may be another story, but I'll (hopefully) have more serious and capable crew on board for that. Cliff makes a very good point about dropping a sail with hanks and having it still connected to the boat. I feel the same way as him about the advantages of that over a foil. I wouldn't want to have to fight with a strong wind trying to maintain control of a loose sail on deck. When I had to change down the headsail in my last boat, I lowered the sail and passed it through the hatch as I unhooked the hanks one at a time. Seemed to work just fine for me. I never had the wind get the sail away from me. I suppose one could feed a sail through the hatch as it came out of a foil as well, but I'd rather have a sail down first before trying to stow it. Cliff had also mentioned in another conversation we had previously that with a down-haul, one could drop a hanked on jib or genoa quickly from the cockpit in a hurry if big blow came up fast or there was some other emergency like MOB. That sounds like a reasonable safety measure with this type of setup that I'll likely implement. So now I have a new question for you guys. Would it be cost effective to convert a furling genoa to hanks? My thinking is that if I converted my existing 155%, I could divert my initial investment for a new sail into a new cruising spinaker. I'd have a reasonable compliment of dacron headsails (storm, 110%, 155%) to get me by until I can replace with newer racing/cruising sails as needed.
Thanks to everyone for the lively discussion. I can certainly see and understand everyone's point of view. I created this thread with the thought that I'd be removing the furler and going with hanks. I believe that's the direction I'm going to take. While furlers seem to work well for a lot of sailors, I'm going with what I know and what my experience has been. The benefits of which are well stated in this thread and others. The only drawback with hanks that I can see is having to change down in a blow. However, when I'm cruising or daysailing, I've always been a "reef early" type of sailor. That helps to keep the "crew" happy and it's not such a wild ride up on the bow changing sails. Racing may be another story, but I'll (hopefully) have more serious and capable crew on board for that. Cliff makes a very good point about dropping a sail with hanks and having it still connected to the boat. I feel the same way as him about the advantages of that over a foil. I wouldn't want to have to fight with a strong wind trying to maintain control of a loose sail on deck. When I had to change down the headsail in my last boat, I lowered the sail and passed it through the hatch as I unhooked the hanks one at a time. Seemed to work just fine for me. I never had the wind get the sail away from me. I suppose one could feed a sail through the hatch as it came out of a foil as well, but I'd rather have a sail down first before trying to stow it. Cliff had also mentioned in another conversation we had previously that with a down-haul, one could drop a hanked on jib or genoa quickly from the cockpit in a hurry if big blow came up fast or there was some other emergency like MOB. That sounds like a reasonable safety measure with this type of setup that I'll likely implement. So now I have a new question for you guys. Would it be cost effective to convert a furling genoa to hanks? My thinking is that if I converted my existing 155%, I could divert my initial investment for a new sail into a new cruising spinaker. I'd have a reasonable compliment of dacron headsails (storm, 110%, 155%) to get me by until I can replace with newer racing/cruising sails as needed.
S. Sauer,
Thanks for the link. I've actually been a member of that group for quite some time. I joined when I started my search for a new boat and read a lot of the messages there to learn about the 28.5. I'm sure you'll be seeing messages (questions) from me in that group before too long.
Thanks for the link. I've actually been a member of that group for quite some time. I joined when I started my search for a new boat and read a lot of the messages there to learn about the 28.5. I'm sure you'll be seeing messages (questions) from me in that group before too long.
OBE
This response would seem to be overtaken by events as you seem to have decided to stick with hanked on sails. But you asked why the HOOD 810 LD furler is not a good reefing system. The short answer is that there is no reliable way to ensure the continuous furling line will not become disengaged from the drum and allow a reefed headsail to unfurl --- probably at a time when you least expect it. If both parts of the furling line are secured tightly around a cleat, you may minimize the possibility of this happening, but it may still occur as such a system depends on the condition of the furling line and the teeth that hold it inside the drum. Like on my boat, your furler is probably original equipment and like all of us, we ain't getting any younger. As to the whether it's worth it to convert your furling sail to a hank-on, it sort of depends on the condition of the sail and what you want to spend. Around here, a loft would probably charge between $250-$350 to make such a conversion. Prices may be different in your area. My suggestion would be to sell the sail(on eBay or this site) and buy a new/used one. I've bought a number of used sails over the years and they have been great values. I also have been amazed at how many used sail brokers (i.e., Baconsails.com)have numerous hank-on sails in their inventory that would fit the H28.5. I think the reason for this large inventory is that most people have converted to furling....
This response would seem to be overtaken by events as you seem to have decided to stick with hanked on sails. But you asked why the HOOD 810 LD furler is not a good reefing system. The short answer is that there is no reliable way to ensure the continuous furling line will not become disengaged from the drum and allow a reefed headsail to unfurl --- probably at a time when you least expect it. If both parts of the furling line are secured tightly around a cleat, you may minimize the possibility of this happening, but it may still occur as such a system depends on the condition of the furling line and the teeth that hold it inside the drum. Like on my boat, your furler is probably original equipment and like all of us, we ain't getting any younger. As to the whether it's worth it to convert your furling sail to a hank-on, it sort of depends on the condition of the sail and what you want to spend. Around here, a loft would probably charge between $250-$350 to make such a conversion. Prices may be different in your area. My suggestion would be to sell the sail(on eBay or this site) and buy a new/used one. I've bought a number of used sails over the years and they have been great values. I also have been amazed at how many used sail brokers (i.e., Baconsails.com)have numerous hank-on sails in their inventory that would fit the H28.5. I think the reason for this large inventory is that most people have converted to furling....
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