Eventually I will buy that 40' sailboat and cruise the world. My question is about the boat and the type of keel that works best. Can a finn keel do the job for serious passages. Is a full keel the way to go? How is boat speed affected by the two types? When using the autohelm, does a finn keel use more juice (power) since it is needs more correcting to keep its course? Comments...?
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Full
Properly planned you will have a minimium of up wind sailing which is where there is an advantage to the fin. The full keel will better protect the rudder in case of grounding. It ain't a race and stability is more important than speed
Properly planned you will have a minimium of up wind sailing which is where there is an advantage to the fin. The full keel will better protect the rudder in case of grounding. It ain't a race and stability is more important than speed
marginal grounding advantage
Unless the Full Keel has a Rudder Skeg, I don't think it offers much additional (rudder) protection in an "unintentional" grounding. Of course, the full keeled vessel is easier to dry out on it's bottom. To your questions (in order): Yes Not Necessarily Variably Maybe
FWIW Gord
Unless the Full Keel has a Rudder Skeg, I don't think it offers much additional (rudder) protection in an "unintentional" grounding. Of course, the full keeled vessel is easier to dry out on it's bottom. To your questions (in order): Yes Not Necessarily Variably Maybe
FWIW GordFull Keel It Is...Which Ones?
Ok then. Full keel it is. That disounts any of the production boats (Beneteau/Hunter etc...) for this type of venture...right? So then we are looking at a more serious boat = more cost, correct? Can you provide a few typical manufacturers of vessels that will cut it for long trips. We are talking used boats and just how old should the be before the refit becomes too expensive? Thanks
Ok then. Full keel it is. That disounts any of the production boats (Beneteau/Hunter etc...) for this type of venture...right? So then we are looking at a more serious boat = more cost, correct? Can you provide a few typical manufacturers of vessels that will cut it for long trips. We are talking used boats and just how old should the be before the refit becomes too expensive? Thanks
funny!
Hi Gary, You're kidding, right? You write that eventually you are going to purchase a sailboat and sail around the world. Fair enough, lots of people have that dream. You have some questions about boat types. That is perfectly normal, and I bet alomst everyone goes through that. So you ask some questions, I assume to get some comments and START your learning process. Here's where it gets funny. TWO people respond, (one of which does not even agree that a full keel is the correct choice) you have no idea of their qualifications (no offense guys, perhaps you are both naval engineers), but "Ok then. Full keel it is." I think that perhaps you should obtain a few of the many books written on the subject and do some real research. I know next to nothing about sailing, and even less about sailing around the world, and even I know there are a lot more keel issues than just boat speed, and tracking. There is a guy who posts often on the Sailnet message boars (http://www.sailnet.com/messageboards/index.cfm) named Jeff (burr.halpern@annapolis.net) who I believe IS a naval architect, and he might have some interesting thoughts. I suggest you make a post on that board as well. Anyway, happy holidays to you and best of luck in your plans. Barry
Hi Gary, You're kidding, right? You write that eventually you are going to purchase a sailboat and sail around the world. Fair enough, lots of people have that dream. You have some questions about boat types. That is perfectly normal, and I bet alomst everyone goes through that. So you ask some questions, I assume to get some comments and START your learning process. Here's where it gets funny. TWO people respond, (one of which does not even agree that a full keel is the correct choice) you have no idea of their qualifications (no offense guys, perhaps you are both naval engineers), but "Ok then. Full keel it is." I think that perhaps you should obtain a few of the many books written on the subject and do some real research. I know next to nothing about sailing, and even less about sailing around the world, and even I know there are a lot more keel issues than just boat speed, and tracking. There is a guy who posts often on the Sailnet message boars (http://www.sailnet.com/messageboards/index.cfm) named Jeff (burr.halpern@annapolis.net) who I believe IS a naval architect, and he might have some interesting thoughts. I suggest you make a post on that board as well. Anyway, happy holidays to you and best of luck in your plans. Barry
I do have a boat...but it's not for the ocean.
Oh I have a boat alright. Anyways, I don't ever pretend that I know more than anyone else. That way I can look humble while gathering a wealth of knowledge. I take in everyones comments, do lots of reading and with all of that I go out and eventually the boat. Thats how I did it with my 36 Beneteau. I will eventually do the same when times comes to get a serious passagemaker. Thanks to all!
Oh I have a boat alright. Anyways, I don't ever pretend that I know more than anyone else. That way I can look humble while gathering a wealth of knowledge. I take in everyones comments, do lots of reading and with all of that I go out and eventually the boat. Thats how I did it with my 36 Beneteau. I will eventually do the same when times comes to get a serious passagemaker. Thanks to all!
Not neccessary - NOT not right
If BarryL is referring to me, when he states (one of which does not even agree that a full keel is the correct choice) - I'd like to clarify my position. I indicated that a full keel is not neccessary, under his stated assumptions. I wouldn't choose any boat, soley for it's keel type.
If BarryL is referring to me, when he states (one of which does not even agree that a full keel is the correct choice) - I'd like to clarify my position. I indicated that a full keel is not neccessary, under his stated assumptions. I wouldn't choose any boat, soley for it's keel type.
Morgan OI 41
Gary, If I was going to take the BIG ONE, I´d look for a good Morgan-Out Island 41. (full keel) I´ve done some blue water cruising in a friend´s Morgan 41 and I loved it. Okay, so they´re old. It would suit my budget better and I think I could find a sea worthy Morgan easily. They are strong and comfortable. (I'm fantasizing here. I'd go for a sloop rig; double head stays, one with roller furling and one for a separate hanked on headsail; a center cockpit, and plenty of beer.) David King
Gary, If I was going to take the BIG ONE, I´d look for a good Morgan-Out Island 41. (full keel) I´ve done some blue water cruising in a friend´s Morgan 41 and I loved it. Okay, so they´re old. It would suit my budget better and I think I could find a sea worthy Morgan easily. They are strong and comfortable. (I'm fantasizing here. I'd go for a sloop rig; double head stays, one with roller furling and one for a separate hanked on headsail; a center cockpit, and plenty of beer.) David King
Gary, here's a book you need to get!
Talk about coincidences. I was just over at the Good Old Boat web site reading 2004 Newsletters and one had the following book review. Sounds like this author isn't holding anything back when he compares today's boats to the traditional designs. BTW, if you can get your hands on back issues of GOB you may want to read Ted Brewer's articles on boat design. Very informative, but since Ted seems to favour more seaworthy designs for ocean passages you won't be getting much in support of light weight keel boats. Kevin Seaworthiness: The Forgotten Factor, C. A. Marchaj, (International Marine Publishing Company, 1988; 371 pages; out of print) Review by Will Clemens Los Altos Hills, Calif. What have boat designs lost in the quest for windward performance? Has a century of yacht racing corrupted our ability to design safe, all-around cruisers? How do you quantify a yacht’s comfort and safety characteristics? Do boat owners even understand why their boats have certain features? While addressing these questions in Seaworthiness: The Forgotten Factor, C. A. Marchaj attacks modern yachts and promotes the benefits of full-keel, heavy-displacement designs. He relentlessly criticizes the fin keel and skeg rudder and identifies well-known boat designers as charlatans. Marchaj casts doubt upon the entire enterprise of organized keelboat racing, noting the craziness of human ballast hanging on the rail and the inefficiency of extremely heeled light displacement-boats. More troubling, according to the author, are racing design features which make their way into general-purpose boats, where the quest for windward speed at all costs is not a legitimate requirement. Nonetheless the casual boater does not have the option of, nor understand, alternatives that would improve comfort, safety, and cost. Marchaj supports his points with detailed math formulas, which may be incomprehensible to some skippers, but the accompanying graphs and pictures are telling and much more accessible. Be prepared for incredible detail, such as individual chapters on pitch, roll, and yaw. But with repetition and visualization, you may begin to literally feel as you read the complex motions of a boat underway. In particular, the drawings of a heavy displacement yacht leaning into waves, maintaining equilibrium, make imminent sense. The action pictures of modern designs will make racing seem needlessly dangerous, not exciting. Though most of the book analyzes hull design, Marchaj also has counterintuitive views above the waterline, such as his support of heavy masts and rigs to dampen roll. Sailors typically think about wind, and it is easier to study rigs, deck hardware, and other visible features. The primary value of Seaworthiness is the intense focus on hull designs. Even weekend sailors will benefit from ideas from this book; they will understand characteristics that make their boats more comfortable in a storm and may start thinking much more about the hull under the waterline when they evaluate their next boat. Whether you agree with Marchaj or not, he offers a perspective on design that is not typically reflected at today’s boat shows. Used copies of Seaworthiness can be found for $20 to $30. Contact BookMark at Good Old Boat for this or other out-of-print books: 763-420-8923.
Talk about coincidences. I was just over at the Good Old Boat web site reading 2004 Newsletters and one had the following book review. Sounds like this author isn't holding anything back when he compares today's boats to the traditional designs. BTW, if you can get your hands on back issues of GOB you may want to read Ted Brewer's articles on boat design. Very informative, but since Ted seems to favour more seaworthy designs for ocean passages you won't be getting much in support of light weight keel boats. Kevin Seaworthiness: The Forgotten Factor, C. A. Marchaj, (International Marine Publishing Company, 1988; 371 pages; out of print) Review by Will Clemens Los Altos Hills, Calif. What have boat designs lost in the quest for windward performance? Has a century of yacht racing corrupted our ability to design safe, all-around cruisers? How do you quantify a yacht’s comfort and safety characteristics? Do boat owners even understand why their boats have certain features? While addressing these questions in Seaworthiness: The Forgotten Factor, C. A. Marchaj attacks modern yachts and promotes the benefits of full-keel, heavy-displacement designs. He relentlessly criticizes the fin keel and skeg rudder and identifies well-known boat designers as charlatans. Marchaj casts doubt upon the entire enterprise of organized keelboat racing, noting the craziness of human ballast hanging on the rail and the inefficiency of extremely heeled light displacement-boats. More troubling, according to the author, are racing design features which make their way into general-purpose boats, where the quest for windward speed at all costs is not a legitimate requirement. Nonetheless the casual boater does not have the option of, nor understand, alternatives that would improve comfort, safety, and cost. Marchaj supports his points with detailed math formulas, which may be incomprehensible to some skippers, but the accompanying graphs and pictures are telling and much more accessible. Be prepared for incredible detail, such as individual chapters on pitch, roll, and yaw. But with repetition and visualization, you may begin to literally feel as you read the complex motions of a boat underway. In particular, the drawings of a heavy displacement yacht leaning into waves, maintaining equilibrium, make imminent sense. The action pictures of modern designs will make racing seem needlessly dangerous, not exciting. Though most of the book analyzes hull design, Marchaj also has counterintuitive views above the waterline, such as his support of heavy masts and rigs to dampen roll. Sailors typically think about wind, and it is easier to study rigs, deck hardware, and other visible features. The primary value of Seaworthiness is the intense focus on hull designs. Even weekend sailors will benefit from ideas from this book; they will understand characteristics that make their boats more comfortable in a storm and may start thinking much more about the hull under the waterline when they evaluate their next boat. Whether you agree with Marchaj or not, he offers a perspective on design that is not typically reflected at today’s boat shows. Used copies of Seaworthiness can be found for $20 to $30. Contact BookMark at Good Old Boat for this or other out-of-print books: 763-420-8923.
Thanks
Great response. Speed vs Safety is the real discussion. The go fast designs has creeped into the wannabe a world cruiser sailboat marked and I am sure Beneteau and the like would disagree. Ever see a Hunter brochure with a picture of one of their new vessels in serious heavy seas? Not a chance. I will look for that book and make it part of my research. Regards
Great response. Speed vs Safety is the real discussion. The go fast designs has creeped into the wannabe a world cruiser sailboat marked and I am sure Beneteau and the like would disagree. Ever see a Hunter brochure with a picture of one of their new vessels in serious heavy seas? Not a chance. I will look for that book and make it part of my research. Regards
My Vote for Full Keel
I had to chime in on this one. I have not sailed around the world, although I like so many of my sea faring brothers would like to some day, but I have met several folks in my travels who did. During my ICW venture back in the mid-80's I came upon folks who's boats were in yards for a repaint, repair or whatever that were preparing for long journeys or returned from one. One thing I took note of was the keel configurations and the great majority were full keeled! Stability was the concern. Darn they just look seaworthy! I for one always appreciated the prop protection, better strength and weight of the full keel vessels. Take a West Sail 32 designed over a Dutch lifeboat. A dog to many, but if I had to sail the world's oceans I will take the slower pace for the safety of a heavy full keeled boat. The open sea can be pretty unforgiving so I'll take that squat, fat, but stable trough runner anyday. Look at Bruce Binghams Flicka as an example of a seaworthy vessel, all 21 feet of it! High gunnels, high shear, full keel, integrated rudder, thick skinned and lovely in a passage way. Stretch it to 35 and thats confidence. Regards Bob Cat 30
I had to chime in on this one. I have not sailed around the world, although I like so many of my sea faring brothers would like to some day, but I have met several folks in my travels who did. During my ICW venture back in the mid-80's I came upon folks who's boats were in yards for a repaint, repair or whatever that were preparing for long journeys or returned from one. One thing I took note of was the keel configurations and the great majority were full keeled! Stability was the concern. Darn they just look seaworthy! I for one always appreciated the prop protection, better strength and weight of the full keel vessels. Take a West Sail 32 designed over a Dutch lifeboat. A dog to many, but if I had to sail the world's oceans I will take the slower pace for the safety of a heavy full keeled boat. The open sea can be pretty unforgiving so I'll take that squat, fat, but stable trough runner anyday. Look at Bruce Binghams Flicka as an example of a seaworthy vessel, all 21 feet of it! High gunnels, high shear, full keel, integrated rudder, thick skinned and lovely in a passage way. Stretch it to 35 and thats confidence. Regards Bob Cat 30
I've heard
New sailor here so I don't really know what I'm talking about, but will add this. I've heard that full keels came about because they were easiest to build using wood and the old-time building techniques, not because they were necessarily more seaworthy.
New sailor here so I don't really know what I'm talking about, but will add this. I've heard that full keels came about because they were easiest to build using wood and the old-time building techniques, not because they were necessarily more seaworthy.
modified
there are people who have crossed the ocean in 18 foot open boats. it is not the boat, but the sailor. picking weather windows and beam reaches is very important. if you do make a mistake, you better be in a boat that will claw off the rocks, (no boat will survive that regargless of keel configuration). in my opinion, it is better to have a lightweight composite foam cored vacuum bagged water ballast boat that does 18 knots. that way you can out manuevre most weather. if that is too spooky for you, you may want to look at the modified full keel. they track well and protect the rudder, but still make to windward (i think valiant yachts are modified) i was in a pearson ketch trying to get back to galveston from port aransas. the boat had decent sails and would still not point...we were headed to mexico and couln not make to windward....we turned back to port aransas. i am sure glad we had searoom. as far as qulifications, i have lived on 4 boats, owned 12, currently have three, am a mechanical engineer with 30 years sailing experience. coastal cruising only no roaring 40's for me.
there are people who have crossed the ocean in 18 foot open boats. it is not the boat, but the sailor. picking weather windows and beam reaches is very important. if you do make a mistake, you better be in a boat that will claw off the rocks, (no boat will survive that regargless of keel configuration). in my opinion, it is better to have a lightweight composite foam cored vacuum bagged water ballast boat that does 18 knots. that way you can out manuevre most weather. if that is too spooky for you, you may want to look at the modified full keel. they track well and protect the rudder, but still make to windward (i think valiant yachts are modified) i was in a pearson ketch trying to get back to galveston from port aransas. the boat had decent sails and would still not point...we were headed to mexico and couln not make to windward....we turned back to port aransas. i am sure glad we had searoom. as far as qulifications, i have lived on 4 boats, owned 12, currently have three, am a mechanical engineer with 30 years sailing experience. coastal cruising only no roaring 40's for me.
maybe not valiant
maybe i am thinking of a tayana instead of the valiant. you could probably google up a modified keel and get some boats to look at.
maybe i am thinking of a tayana instead of the valiant. you could probably google up a modified keel and get some boats to look at.
Just another opinion
It is given that most people responding here are not naval architects. Instead, we are just giving our opinions to what we would look for in a "world cruiser". Given this assumption, I would probably look for a boat that is probably a compromise between a full-keel ocean cruiser and a fin keel coastal cruiser. A full-keel boat will give you good tracking and good protection in case of groundings. However, most full keels don't give you lift for windward performance. The "Scheel" keel is an exception to this, so I understand. They also do not give you good agility, so close-in manuverability will suffer. Boats with full keels will track like they are rails however. This is a nice feature in following seas where the stern wants to be pushed around. A full keel also makes hoving to easier and more comfortable. Usually, the hull shape on these types of boats will also give you deeper bilges for more storage. A fin-keel, especially a high-aspect design, will give the boat the ability to point higher into the wind and with more speed due to the lift the keel generates. This design makes the boat "twitchier". This will work out your autopilot (or helmsman) much more than a full keel boat. The rudder is more fragile on this design over skeg-hung rudders. A grounding could easily bend or break your rudder stock. Some builders will create a "sacrificial" portion of the rudder that will break off, yet still leave you with steering ability. Personally, I would look for more speed than stability. I would prefer to outrun rather than survive bad weather. A modified keel, generally a wide-chord fin keel with a skeg hung rudder, I beleive would give me some of the speed and agility of a fin while still giving better protection for the prop and rudder in case of groundings. But that is just my preference. I would rather pass boats than be passed. A lot of this can be solved by water line length and general hull design, but usually these types of boats come with fin rather than full keels. Some of the boats I have seen that have this feature include Valiants, Golden Waves, Peterson 44s & 46s, some Morgans, Passports, Calibers, among others. Just the opinion of one. Les Murray s/v Ceilidh '86 C-36 #560
It is given that most people responding here are not naval architects. Instead, we are just giving our opinions to what we would look for in a "world cruiser". Given this assumption, I would probably look for a boat that is probably a compromise between a full-keel ocean cruiser and a fin keel coastal cruiser. A full-keel boat will give you good tracking and good protection in case of groundings. However, most full keels don't give you lift for windward performance. The "Scheel" keel is an exception to this, so I understand. They also do not give you good agility, so close-in manuverability will suffer. Boats with full keels will track like they are rails however. This is a nice feature in following seas where the stern wants to be pushed around. A full keel also makes hoving to easier and more comfortable. Usually, the hull shape on these types of boats will also give you deeper bilges for more storage. A fin-keel, especially a high-aspect design, will give the boat the ability to point higher into the wind and with more speed due to the lift the keel generates. This design makes the boat "twitchier". This will work out your autopilot (or helmsman) much more than a full keel boat. The rudder is more fragile on this design over skeg-hung rudders. A grounding could easily bend or break your rudder stock. Some builders will create a "sacrificial" portion of the rudder that will break off, yet still leave you with steering ability. Personally, I would look for more speed than stability. I would prefer to outrun rather than survive bad weather. A modified keel, generally a wide-chord fin keel with a skeg hung rudder, I beleive would give me some of the speed and agility of a fin while still giving better protection for the prop and rudder in case of groundings. But that is just my preference. I would rather pass boats than be passed. A lot of this can be solved by water line length and general hull design, but usually these types of boats come with fin rather than full keels. Some of the boats I have seen that have this feature include Valiants, Golden Waves, Peterson 44s & 46s, some Morgans, Passports, Calibers, among others. Just the opinion of one. Les Murray s/v Ceilidh '86 C-36 #560
Gary
Sea test 'em. You know how your fin keel behaves, right? Charter a full keel design & see how you like, it but remember; If you're used to a production sailboat, you might find the seagoing vessel has some serious hardware, and you may become jealous of the serious deck & rigging stuff - Remember what you're comparing. Sound expensive? Compare it to the cost of buying a boat that doesn't fit your needs.
Sea test 'em. You know how your fin keel behaves, right? Charter a full keel design & see how you like, it but remember; If you're used to a production sailboat, you might find the seagoing vessel has some serious hardware, and you may become jealous of the serious deck & rigging stuff - Remember what you're comparing. Sound expensive? Compare it to the cost of buying a boat that doesn't fit your needs.
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