Fuel line issues

[YVRguy]

Over the last year I have really struggled with fuel problems on my H-34. I have had the engine quit multiple times due to fuel issues and on two occasions it literally ended my sailing outings and embarrassed me in front of my guests in no small measure. The sailing in my area is beautiful but the winds can be fickle so some days a lot of motoring is inevitable.

I came into boat ownership without a huge amount of mechanical aptitude but I am learning. So far I have learned that diesel fuel is inherently "dirty" and that fuel filters have to be changed regularly as a result. With that said, sometimes the engine still quits. After changing the fuel filter it seems inevitable that air is introduced into the fuel line. My buddy and I once had my mechanic take over an hour on the phone to talk us through a multi-step process for bleeding the fuel line at various points in order to get the engine started again. Very frustrating. Later, someone else told me that bleeding the fuel line should be a very simple process. (We have a Yanmar 3GM)

Here are my questions:
- Is it normal for your engine to quit a couple of times in a season due to fuel issues and to have to change the filters and bleed the line in the middle of the ocean?

- How often should I be checking the fuel filters to ensure I'm on top of things

- Is it really an hour's work to bleed the fuel line at multiple points along the fuel system? Or is there a simpler way? (I do have a charging bulb installed)

I just want to sail and I'm not the type to relish being head down in my engine for hours at a time. I really hope I'm missing something.

 

[Richard Bryer]

Your engine should not be quitting a couple of times a season (even in the longer season you guys get out there ), depending on how much you motor, you should not have to check your filter more than every 50 hours or so, maybe not that often ( think of highway diesels). It can take an hour to bleed the system, but with a bulb not that long.
I would take a look at the fuel tank. Mine is an '83 and about 6 or 7 years back I cut a hole in the tank and cleaned it out. As I have said on here before, if I had known how much crud was in that tank I would not have left the dock!. I took out over a gallon of stuff that looked more like it came out of your eavstrough than a fuel tank. Check the tank pick up tube also to make sure it isn't clogging on the screen in the end.

 

[YVRguy]

Your engine should not be quitting a couple of times a season (even in the longer season you guys get out there ), depending on how much you motor, you should not have to check your filter more than every 50 hours or so, maybe not that often ( think of highway diesels). It can take an hour to bleed the system, but with a bulb not that long.
I would take a look at the fuel tank. Mine is an '83 and about 6 or 7 years back I cut a hole in the tank and cleaned it out. As I have said on here before, if I had known how much crud was in that tank I would not have left the dock!. I took out over a gallon of stuff that looked more like it came out of your eavstrough than a fuel tank. Check the tank pick up tube also to make sure it isn't clogging on the screen in the end.

Good point. I'm sure my tank is the same. How large a hole did you cut?

 

[py26129]

Doug

First off, when you mention "fuel issue" what exactly are you referring to? Dirty fuel or air in the fuel lines.

My engine installation has an intermittent issue where I occasionally have an air leak in the fuel delivery system that requires bleeding the system to get the engine to run normally again. (I have it isolated to either the shut-off at the tank or a pinhole in the pick-up tube in the tank) Once one becomes familiar with bleeding the engine this will take no more than a few minutes. I have attached by cheat sheet for bleeding a 3GM.

If you are talking about dirty fuel, and you need to change the filters more several time / year, then I think you probably have accumulated "crud" in the tank. If that's the case, then you you will need to empty the tank and clean out the accumulated "crud". We put about 100 - 120 hours on our engine per season and I easily run multiple years before needing to change the filters. I don't do anything special when buying diesel but do carry spare filters, just in case.


Cheers

Matt

 

[YVRguy]

Doug

First off, when you mention "fuel issue" what exactly are you referring to? Dirty fuel or air in the fuel lines.

My engine installation has an intermittent issue where I occasionally have an air leak in the fuel delivery system that requires bleeding the system to get the engine to run normally again. (I have it isolated to either the shut-off at the tank or a pinhole in the pick-up tube in the tank) Once one becomes familiar with bleeding the engine this will take no more than a few minutes. I have attached by cheat sheet for bleeding a 3GM.

If you are talking about dirty fuel, and you need to change the filters more several time / year, then I think you probably have accumulated "crud" in the tank. If that's the case, then you you will need to empty the tank and clean out the accumulated "crud". We put about 100 - 120 hours on our engine per season and I easily run multiple years before needing to change the filters. I don't do anything special when buying diesel but do carry spare filters, just in case.


Cheers

Matt

Matt;

The problem starts with fuel contamination and that tends to lead to air in the fuel line which is introduced during the process of changing the fuel filter. Thanks for the bleeding primer - that is very useful!

 

[Allan12210]

Doug,

If it is fuel contamination, then that does need to be addressed. I had that problem a couple of years ago, One diagnostic is to have a vacuum gauge installed on a spare port on your Racor filter. You will be able to see somewhat in advance if your filter is loading up. The fuel in the bowl of the water separator should be clear. If there is any black then you probably had water in the tank and algae has formed, and continues to grow unless a biocide is used to kill it. Removal of the dead algae takes more effort with the best way being to drain the tank and cleaning completely. Here is how I installed my inspection port:

http://hunter.sailboatowners.com/in...mid=267&cat_id=31&aid=8144&page=article&mn=34

Some simpler things to check include clogged fuel pick up line in the tank. You can remove the dip tube in the fuel tank and look up inside the end. Hunter originally inserted a small screen inside that tube which regularly (but intermittently) clogged up. Take an ice pick and pop it out. You don't need it as you have downstream protection with your Racor. If you are aspirating air via the fittings when the engine warms up and gaps expand, then (as I had to do last year) change the copper washers on the line from the lift pump to the injector pump. I think there are either 3 or 4 of those washers at each end of that steel line. Make sure your rubber fuel delivery hoses are not cracked on the surface and all clamps are secure.

Allan

 

[YVRguy]

Doug,

If it is fuel contamination, then that does need to be addressed. I had that problem a couple of years ago, One diagnostic is to have a vacuum gauge installed on a spare port on your Racor filter. You will be able to see somewhat in advance if your filter is loading up. The fuel in the bowl of the water separator should be clear. If there is any black then you probably had water in the tank and algae has formed, and continues to grow unless a biocide is used to kill it. Removal of the dead algae takes more effort with the best way being to drain the tank and cleaning completely. Here is how I installed my inspection port:

http://hunter.sailboatowners.com/in...mid=267&cat_id=31&aid=8144&page=article&mn=34

Some simpler things to check include clogged fuel pick up line in the tank. You can remove the dip tube in the fuel tank and look up inside the end. Hunter originally inserted a small screen inside that tube which regularly (but intermittently) clogged up. Take an ice pick and pop it out. You don't need it as you have downstream protection with your Racor. If you are aspirating air via the fittings when the engine warms up and gaps expand, then (as I had to do last year) change the copper washers on the line from the lift pump to the injector pump. I think there are either 3 or 4 of those washers at each end of that steel line. Make sure your rubber fuel delivery hoses are not cracked on the surface and all clamps are secure.

Allan

Allan, I love the location of your fuel filter. Mine is under the aft bunk and is much more difficult to access and work with. It's becoming pretty plain that I need to clean the sludge from my fuel tank. It makes sense because recently the engine cut while I was motor sailing and heeling. I guess the gunk got sloshed around with the heeling. Thanks for your other helpful advice

 

[CloudDiver]

Have you considered a fuel polishing system? MainSail I believe has a pretty good article on his own self-installed system. I know the additional filters and plumbing might be expensive but I imagine that cost is equal to or less than the labor and hassle of cutting a hole in your fuel tank. The added benefit is that a polishing system will prevent your tank from fouling again in the future. Also, if you take the time to install a polishing system it will be the perfect opportunity to relocate you primary fuel filter to a more accessible location (if possible).
Worst case, and possibly the least investment in $$$,is a fuel system service where they basically do the same function as an installed fuel polishing system only with their own pier-side equipment.

 

[Tricia]

cleaning fuel tank

Doug, I went to Wright Marine in Coal Harbour and bought a couple of SeaBuilt access ports - one for each side of the baffle in my tank. Siphoned the fuel out of the tank and cut 2 6" holes, then thoroughly cleaned out the tank. The bonus was when I returned the fuel (filtered) to the tank, I did it in 2 litre increments and marked the fuel gauge with a sharpie so I have a better idea how much is actually in the tank. My fuel was in pretty good shape. If it had been really gucky I would have discarded it and started fresh.

http://www.seabuilt.com/plates.php

 

[YVRguy]

Doug, I went to Wright Marine in Coal Harbour and bought a couple of SeaBuilt access ports - one for each side of the baffle in my tank. Siphoned the fuel out of the tank and cut 2 6" holes, then thoroughly cleaned out the tank. The bonus was when I returned the fuel (filtered) to the tank, I did it in 2 litre increments and marked the fuel gauge with a sharpie so I have a better idea how much is actually in the tank. My fuel was in pretty good shape. If it had been really gucky I would have discarded it and started fresh.

http://www.seabuilt.com/plates.php

Thanks Tricia;

My boat is in Coal Harbour Marina so I'll wander over to Wright. I'm thinking that if I just give my fuel tank a good cleaning and then use conditioner after that I'll be fine.

 

[Richard Bryer]

If I remember correctly it was 7"X7". Easy to cut with a sharp utility knife,

I covered the hole with a piece of lexan- think it was 3/16. spaced holes evenly around and used round head screws (SS). Did this of course with the tank empty. Drained it by siphoning out thru the cockpit drain hose with a piece of garden hose running from the tank out thru the drain hose. Was on the hard at the time. here is a pic of the covered hole. Sealed it with kerosene resistant Permatex - blue tube I think.

BTW there was no baffles in mine

 

[centerline]

if you have a diesel engine and it EVER dies on its own, there is a problem.
if the problem is dirty fuel, it can be fixed easier than a bad electrical problem, but sometimes it can be a bit messier.

you probably have a fuel gauge in the tank, and the tank probably has a sloping bottom, (conforming to the slope of the hull) so the sediments/water will collect in the low spot.... this is good, but unfortunately the pick up tube for your engine is in the low spot also.

if so... spend the money on a high volume, low pressure fuel pump.

set it up with 3/8 barb fittings with 5ft of 3/8 fuel line out each side... then get a 24-30" piece of 3/8 copper or steel brake line and connect to the end of the suction line....

rig the pump with wiring to plug into the DC powerport or connect to the battery.... you should have a switch at the pump to turn it on and off...

now gather some fuel containers to pump the fuel into... enough to hold all the fuel you have in the tank.

now you can remove the sending unit from the tank and stick the snorkle down into the lowest part of the tank and pump the crud and fuel out into the containers.... move the snorkle back and forth in the low spot so it "vacuums" it all up....

once the tank is empty, use the pump to put some of the clean fuel back into the tank... try to get it back in far enough so it washes any sediments towards you...

then once it is a couple inches deep, suck it out again......

so, now.....
the sediments should all be settled to the bottom of the containers, so now you can lower the snorkle to the bottom of a container of fuel, and PICK IT UP OFF THE BOTTOM a couple inches.... then turn the pump on. DO NOT let the snorkle slip to the bottom of the container, as it will pick up debris and pump it back into the tank.

after emptying all the containers of fuel this way, you can then pump them all together into the same container.... let it settle for 20 minutes, and again, pump the clean fuel out of it and back into the tank.... stay away from the silt at least two inches.

now your boat will be in the top 15% of those with the cleanest fuel tanks....


now change the filters.

the pump can be installed near the tank and be used as a primer pump for the system, which will make an hour priming job turn into a 5 minute priming job.... and because it will now be easy to prime the system, there will be no reason to procrastinate on filter changes.... timely maintenance is the ONLY way to keep all the mechanicals in the best possible condition and minimize any surprises that will forever be a threat to our R&R while on the boat

 

[YVRguy]

if you have a diesel engine and it EVER dies on its own, there is a problem...

Thank you Centerline. That's a very comprehensive solution.

 

[srhummer]

OK I had one fuel problem but was of course coming back into port - never a good time. So I have installed a "day tank" that sits on top of my normal tank. My day tank lasts me a season if all I do is daysail. If I cruise I need to refuel too often so I go back to my normal tank. This allows me to empty the normal tank and take my day tank home each winter. Here is what the day tank looks like.

I installed the additional barbs for the fuel return and for an external vent. Not sure I needed the vent since the tack has a built in vent in the cap.

 

[Ron20324]

Here is what the day tanik looks like.....

Uummm... is that diesel in there? If so, you should put a sign on the tank. I got some aviation gas for my outboard, but since it contains lead, I put a sign on my tank (like yours pictured) " Do NOT put in automobiles" since it will ruin your catalytic converter.

 

[srhummer]

Yeah I have added DIESEL with a black marker on top and both sides. The picture is from when I first made it 3 years ago.