I live in Montréal and it is not unusual during the winter for the temperature to get very cold, down to minus 20 or less. This winter in January however we had rain. A freind of mine own a Hughes 38. The motor is a Yanmar 3 GM 30F. The boat was winterize properly in November but for unknown reasons, probably during the January rain we had, the boat bilge, where the motor is located, filled with water and subsequently froze solid. This picture was taken March 30th as the ice started to melt. The boat was closed up in November and not visited till this past weekend when the trouble was discovered. I know we will have to find where the water came from, who is responsible for this mess, discuss this with the insurance company, but for the time, the important question is what to do with the Yanmar when the ice will be melted in a couple of days? Will it be repairable? Will it be full of water inside the 3 cylinders? Any advise will be greatly appreciated, thanks in advance!
Frozen Yanmar, looking for expert advise!
- Thread starter Claude Labrecque
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Try Yanmar...
...http://www.freeboards.net/?mforum=yanmarhelp Here is another diesel forum site: http://forums.torresen.com/sailing/
...http://www.freeboards.net/?mforum=yanmarhelp Here is another diesel forum site: http://forums.torresen.com/sailing/
Run engine if you can
I would say that there is a good chance water did get into the cylinders. Any chance that his water came from the fresh water tanks on board?There should be antifreeze in the engines cooling system but it is the water that made it's way into unwanted places like the cylinders I would be concerned about. After the ice melts, try and rotate the engine by hand. Use a socket wrench on the big nut at the center of the front crankshaft pulley. In case a cylinder is full of water. If it is, you may be able to remove the injectors then rotate it. Removing injectors is not unlike removing a spargk plug except it is held in with bolts then pulls out when they are removed. Drain the engine oil/water from the oil pan, Install fresh oil and a oil filter. Hook up a water hose to fresh water intake for cooling the engine. Run the engine until it gets to 180 degrees or close. Drain this oil out. Install a second lot of fresh oil and oil filter then run it again. I would buy a couple of oil analysis sample bottles and sample this second batch of oil after 1 hour and then after 5 hours. Try a third oil change and continue with the sampling process. The oil analysis people will be able to tell you if it is looking better or worse. If it does get worse, the answer is pull the engine and have a major overhaul done. Special attention will have to be taken to check the block for cracks. Good luck and keep us posted. Ken
I would say that there is a good chance water did get into the cylinders. Any chance that his water came from the fresh water tanks on board?There should be antifreeze in the engines cooling system but it is the water that made it's way into unwanted places like the cylinders I would be concerned about. After the ice melts, try and rotate the engine by hand. Use a socket wrench on the big nut at the center of the front crankshaft pulley. In case a cylinder is full of water. If it is, you may be able to remove the injectors then rotate it. Removing injectors is not unlike removing a spargk plug except it is held in with bolts then pulls out when they are removed. Drain the engine oil/water from the oil pan, Install fresh oil and a oil filter. Hook up a water hose to fresh water intake for cooling the engine. Run the engine until it gets to 180 degrees or close. Drain this oil out. Install a second lot of fresh oil and oil filter then run it again. I would buy a couple of oil analysis sample bottles and sample this second batch of oil after 1 hour and then after 5 hours. Try a third oil change and continue with the sampling process. The oil analysis people will be able to tell you if it is looking better or worse. If it does get worse, the answer is pull the engine and have a major overhaul done. Special attention will have to be taken to check the block for cracks. Good luck and keep us posted. Ken
Mostly what Ken said but...
I'd first open the compression release levers and rotate the engine by hand AS SOON AS THE WATER IS BELOW THE INTAKE, while spraying a heavy load of WD-40 in the intake. Once the water is below the engine, do an oil change and have the starter and alternator checked/rebuilt. Then try to start it up after the starter/alternator are replaced. The fuel system will be fine, it's a closed system. Running it on WD-40 will also help with internal corrosion. I doubt the block is cracked, the ice should have rissen as it got hard. Pat McCartin Inland Marine Diesel Buford, Ga imd_ga@hotmail.com
I'd first open the compression release levers and rotate the engine by hand AS SOON AS THE WATER IS BELOW THE INTAKE, while spraying a heavy load of WD-40 in the intake. Once the water is below the engine, do an oil change and have the starter and alternator checked/rebuilt. Then try to start it up after the starter/alternator are replaced. The fuel system will be fine, it's a closed system. Running it on WD-40 will also help with internal corrosion. I doubt the block is cracked, the ice should have rissen as it got hard. Pat McCartin Inland Marine Diesel Buford, Ga imd_ga@hotmail.com
don't forget the transmission
you will have to flush the trans oil several time also. As the others have said there is a good chance that there is water in the engine however with some luck you may be a be able to salvage this. If the insurance(not sure about this one) pays ask for a new engine and trans. You might also want to have the hull inspected but a good surveyor to check and make sure there is no structial damage to the engine stringers (or any other part for that matter) from the ice damage. Let us know the outcome, Good Luck !
you will have to flush the trans oil several time also. As the others have said there is a good chance that there is water in the engine however with some luck you may be a be able to salvage this. If the insurance(not sure about this one) pays ask for a new engine and trans. You might also want to have the hull inspected but a good surveyor to check and make sure there is no structial damage to the engine stringers (or any other part for that matter) from the ice damage. Let us know the outcome, Good Luck !
What Pete said. Yep, expanding ice can't do any
good. The engine isn't my first concern. It can be fixed. It's the hull. Boats aren't designed to be an ice tray. So sorry for your loss. Never seen anything like it.
good. The engine isn't my first concern. It can be fixed. It's the hull. Boats aren't designed to be an ice tray. So sorry for your loss. Never seen anything like it.
no mystery
It's pretty obvious that the bilge pump failed. Geez, putting the engine in the bilge doesn't strike me as the best idea, and I'm not a boat designer.
It's pretty obvious that the bilge pump failed. Geez, putting the engine in the bilge doesn't strike me as the best idea, and I'm not a boat designer.
Bilge pump response to Steve O
Steve The boat was on the ground and the batteries were unplugged for the winter. It is unusual for any owners here to leave the bilge pump plugged for the winter as most people either remove the batteries from their boat or at least unplug them. Also, the bilge pump might not be as efficient in cyclical weather has we had this winter. Very cold temperature, followed by just above zero and cold again, many times during the same month. I think that if there is only 1 inch of water in the bilge and the float does not raise enough to start the pump, but the following day with very cold temperature the water in the bilge become ice, during the next water intrusion, that in theory could activate the float, the pump might be frozen solid burning the fuse while trying to start. From there water would accumulate every time it rains, assuming water is coming from the rain. But where else could it come from anyway?
Steve The boat was on the ground and the batteries were unplugged for the winter. It is unusual for any owners here to leave the bilge pump plugged for the winter as most people either remove the batteries from their boat or at least unplug them. Also, the bilge pump might not be as efficient in cyclical weather has we had this winter. Very cold temperature, followed by just above zero and cold again, many times during the same month. I think that if there is only 1 inch of water in the bilge and the float does not raise enough to start the pump, but the following day with very cold temperature the water in the bilge become ice, during the next water intrusion, that in theory could activate the float, the pump might be frozen solid burning the fuse while trying to start. From there water would accumulate every time it rains, assuming water is coming from the rain. But where else could it come from anyway?
Snow in the cockpit
The cockpit maybe. I have seen where the cockpit drains have froze, snow and rain accumulate in the cockpit until it reaches a level where it flows into the cabin. That is why it is very improtant to cover the cockpit to protect from snow and rain. In my opinion of course
The cockpit maybe. I have seen where the cockpit drains have froze, snow and rain accumulate in the cockpit until it reaches a level where it flows into the cabin. That is why it is very improtant to cover the cockpit to protect from snow and rain. In my opinion of course
Something to Consider...
Claude, During the winter it is very important to check your boat frequently, especially during very wet winters such as this winter. Rain and Snow water have a way of finding its way into your bilge. Often the bilge gets so full that wood work or machinery is damaged. You may want to install a "garboard" plug in the lowest point in the hull. The plug can be removed during the winter and will permit the bilge water to drain out. We have installed dozens of these hull plugs and have prevented many boats from "sinking" on land. This was a tip offerred in our Marina Newsletter this past fall. It could be helpfull in the future. See the related link. I "googled" "Garboard plug" and found this.
Claude, During the winter it is very important to check your boat frequently, especially during very wet winters such as this winter. Rain and Snow water have a way of finding its way into your bilge. Often the bilge gets so full that wood work or machinery is damaged. You may want to install a "garboard" plug in the lowest point in the hull. The plug can be removed during the winter and will permit the bilge water to drain out. We have installed dozens of these hull plugs and have prevented many boats from "sinking" on land. This was a tip offerred in our Marina Newsletter this past fall. It could be helpfull in the future. See the related link. I "googled" "Garboard plug" and found this.
'Flood the engine with Marvel Mystery Oil
Once you get the ice free, dont wait to suck out the engine oil and then flood the crankcase, combustion chambers, with Marvel Mystery Oil. If you cant find MMO then flooding the engine with automatic transmission oil (ATF) will do. Flooding (with a light oil) the combustion chambers will be the most important as this will prevent the piston rings from rusting/freezing in their grooves. If the piston rings get frozen, you will break the rings when you attempt to start the engine. As another poster stated you want to as soon as possible be able to turn the engine over by HAND to ensure that the piston rings, valve stems, etc. dont 'freeze'. Once you are SURE that the engine can easily turn over by hand and you find NO binding when hand rotating, then with the fuel supply shut off, turn the engine over by the starter with the injectors removed. IF the rings are frozen/rusted, or the engine is 'binding' when you try to rotate, continue to add MMO to the combustion chamber through the removed injectors and simply keep turning the cranshaft back and forth until the engine is 'free' - just be patient and do not FORCE the rings or you will break them. It may take several days of crankshaft rocking and MMO addition ... but eventually the engine WILL break 'free'. Once the engine is free to turn, change the crankcase oil to a mixture of 75%MMO and 25% regular oil .... spin the starter to fill the oil galleries, then start the engine (keep that rag handy in case you need to jam it into the air intake in case of a 'runaway'). Run the engine at idle (NO LOAD ... transmission in NEUTRAL) until warm. This will repolish the cylinder walls and valve stems. If the valve stems are stuck ---- open the valve inspection plate and watch that the valve stems are actually moving up and down and NOT stuck .... if stuck reach into the combustion chamber with a 'tool' and simply push the stuck valve down a few times until free. Do this idle-to-warm sequence several times. Then change the crankcase oil to 75% normal oil and 25% MMO and 's-l-o-w-l-y' over time bring the engine up to speed (NO LOAD - transmission in NEUTRAL, and when sure that the engine is OK then begin with a load on the engine - keep that rag handy in case of 'runaway'. The object is to NOT break the piston rings, but to 'free' the rings .... and get then engine HOT to drive out the accumulated water and drive the 'emulsified' water from the lubrication galleries, etc. Once the engine is 'running' with load, change the oil (detergent oil) several times to be sure that all water is removed .... run the engine until HOT and keep it running to drive out the water. Even if the engine is rust-frozen, do not despair .... just gently keep rocking the crankshaft back and forth until it does break free. DO NOT force the cranks shaft ... as you WILL break the piston rings, just be patient. Once you are pretty sure that you saved the engine ... run it with a NON-detergent oil for a while (to help 'reseat' and re-"break-in" the engine. After about 20-25 hours of run time, change back to you normal oil. The above method will sometimes allow a totally rust-frozen engine to be 'brought back from the dead'. Be patient and do not force ... but as quickly as possible get the engine to run HOT to drive out any remaining water. good luck.
Once you get the ice free, dont wait to suck out the engine oil and then flood the crankcase, combustion chambers, with Marvel Mystery Oil. If you cant find MMO then flooding the engine with automatic transmission oil (ATF) will do. Flooding (with a light oil) the combustion chambers will be the most important as this will prevent the piston rings from rusting/freezing in their grooves. If the piston rings get frozen, you will break the rings when you attempt to start the engine. As another poster stated you want to as soon as possible be able to turn the engine over by HAND to ensure that the piston rings, valve stems, etc. dont 'freeze'. Once you are SURE that the engine can easily turn over by hand and you find NO binding when hand rotating, then with the fuel supply shut off, turn the engine over by the starter with the injectors removed. IF the rings are frozen/rusted, or the engine is 'binding' when you try to rotate, continue to add MMO to the combustion chamber through the removed injectors and simply keep turning the cranshaft back and forth until the engine is 'free' - just be patient and do not FORCE the rings or you will break them. It may take several days of crankshaft rocking and MMO addition ... but eventually the engine WILL break 'free'. Once the engine is free to turn, change the crankcase oil to a mixture of 75%MMO and 25% regular oil .... spin the starter to fill the oil galleries, then start the engine (keep that rag handy in case you need to jam it into the air intake in case of a 'runaway'). Run the engine at idle (NO LOAD ... transmission in NEUTRAL) until warm. This will repolish the cylinder walls and valve stems. If the valve stems are stuck ---- open the valve inspection plate and watch that the valve stems are actually moving up and down and NOT stuck .... if stuck reach into the combustion chamber with a 'tool' and simply push the stuck valve down a few times until free. Do this idle-to-warm sequence several times. Then change the crankcase oil to 75% normal oil and 25% MMO and 's-l-o-w-l-y' over time bring the engine up to speed (NO LOAD - transmission in NEUTRAL, and when sure that the engine is OK then begin with a load on the engine - keep that rag handy in case of 'runaway'. The object is to NOT break the piston rings, but to 'free' the rings .... and get then engine HOT to drive out the accumulated water and drive the 'emulsified' water from the lubrication galleries, etc. Once the engine is 'running' with load, change the oil (detergent oil) several times to be sure that all water is removed .... run the engine until HOT and keep it running to drive out the water. Even if the engine is rust-frozen, do not despair .... just gently keep rocking the crankshaft back and forth until it does break free. DO NOT force the cranks shaft ... as you WILL break the piston rings, just be patient. Once you are pretty sure that you saved the engine ... run it with a NON-detergent oil for a while (to help 'reseat' and re-"break-in" the engine. After about 20-25 hours of run time, change back to you normal oil. The above method will sometimes allow a totally rust-frozen engine to be 'brought back from the dead'. Be patient and do not force ... but as quickly as possible get the engine to run HOT to drive out any remaining water. good luck.
I'd chip out as much as possible
Then use a hairdrier to melt any left over ice from the area and vacume the melted ice(water)out.Also follow the other suggestions as to the xmsn and structural components.Good luck and do keep us informed. Keep it up, Ctskip
Then use a hairdrier to melt any left over ice from the area and vacume the melted ice(water)out.Also follow the other suggestions as to the xmsn and structural components.Good luck and do keep us informed. Keep it up, Ctskip
How about one of those torpedo heaters
outside the boat, facing the hull? Not real close but close enough to melt the ice inside then vacume the water away and use a heater for the interior cabin. Heat/melt/vacume.turn over motor by hand open combustion chambers,fill with Marvel mystery oil.Use a small electric heater to be sure motor is warm (all water inside motor is melted) before turning over with key. Just a thought. Keep it up, Ctskip
outside the boat, facing the hull? Not real close but close enough to melt the ice inside then vacume the water away and use a heater for the interior cabin. Heat/melt/vacume.turn over motor by hand open combustion chambers,fill with Marvel mystery oil.Use a small electric heater to be sure motor is warm (all water inside motor is melted) before turning over with key. Just a thought. Keep it up, Ctskip
My understanding of ice damage
is that the damage occurs as it expands when thawing - not when freezing. When it freezes like your bilge water has, it has a place to expand as a liquid. When it thaws, it does not have any place to go. The density of water varies with temperature. The maximum density occurs slightly above freezing. The density of water then goes down for temperatures greater than or lower than 4 degrees C. That being the case, my concern would be the hull first. My advice is to relieve the outward pressure on the hull before it thaws. I would do this by drilling a line of holes into the ice around the engine. Make a channel all the way around the engine by chipping out the ice between the holes. As to the engine itself, there should have been some antifreeze in the blocks cooling chambers and passages and hoses. I would check that by looking into the water fill and see if it is liquid or not. You could also check by pulling off a hose. Assuming the cooling system water is ok ie: liquid, I would then look at the oil and see if water has gone in there. Look at the dipstick, etc. I would not expect to much rust in this situation. If the engine will not turn, it is probably ice not rust but the previous suggestions on freeing it up by turning the crank back and forth with the compression lever released are what I would do. Check the exhaust system before trying to start the engine. It might be frozen as well and cooling water will get back into the cylinders that way, too. There are engine dipstick heaters and magnetic block heaters which you can use to keep the engine warm but I am not sure the best way to thaw an engine with ice in the oil pan. I mention these engine heaters for other readers as I am sure a guy from Montreal will already know about those things.
is that the damage occurs as it expands when thawing - not when freezing. When it freezes like your bilge water has, it has a place to expand as a liquid. When it thaws, it does not have any place to go. The density of water varies with temperature. The maximum density occurs slightly above freezing. The density of water then goes down for temperatures greater than or lower than 4 degrees C. That being the case, my concern would be the hull first. My advice is to relieve the outward pressure on the hull before it thaws. I would do this by drilling a line of holes into the ice around the engine. Make a channel all the way around the engine by chipping out the ice between the holes. As to the engine itself, there should have been some antifreeze in the blocks cooling chambers and passages and hoses. I would check that by looking into the water fill and see if it is liquid or not. You could also check by pulling off a hose. Assuming the cooling system water is ok ie: liquid, I would then look at the oil and see if water has gone in there. Look at the dipstick, etc. I would not expect to much rust in this situation. If the engine will not turn, it is probably ice not rust but the previous suggestions on freeing it up by turning the crank back and forth with the compression lever released are what I would do. Check the exhaust system before trying to start the engine. It might be frozen as well and cooling water will get back into the cylinders that way, too. There are engine dipstick heaters and magnetic block heaters which you can use to keep the engine warm but I am not sure the best way to thaw an engine with ice in the oil pan. I mention these engine heaters for other readers as I am sure a guy from Montreal will already know about those things.
Patrick, I want to correct your statement
concerning the expansion of water and ice. Water will freeze at 32 f. and then continue to expand as it cools. Fill a small glass jar with water and place it in you freezer, also fill a cake pan with water and put that in the freezer. The result should be a broken jar and a pan of ice with a hump in the middle. A 1 gallon paint can filled with water and sitting on the ground will freeze from the top down and cause all of the expansion to be towards the bottom of the can. Now if the water in the boat accumulated in layers and froze in layers then the expansion probably didn't harm the hull but if all of the water entered and froze in one batch and the top froze first then the hull may have cracked. If the water froze from the hull surfaces first and remained liquid in the center then the expansion would form a hump in the middle of the top.
concerning the expansion of water and ice. Water will freeze at 32 f. and then continue to expand as it cools. Fill a small glass jar with water and place it in you freezer, also fill a cake pan with water and put that in the freezer. The result should be a broken jar and a pan of ice with a hump in the middle. A 1 gallon paint can filled with water and sitting on the ground will freeze from the top down and cause all of the expansion to be towards the bottom of the can. Now if the water in the boat accumulated in layers and froze in layers then the expansion probably didn't harm the hull but if all of the water entered and froze in one batch and the top froze first then the hull may have cracked. If the water froze from the hull surfaces first and remained liquid in the center then the expansion would form a hump in the middle of the top.
Claude, Looking at the color of the ice
I believ that all of the water entered a one time and froze from the hull surfaces first. The mass of the engine would have kept the water liquid as the rest of it froze. By this time you must know if the hull was damaged. Just pump out the melt water as you can. The cold should have retarded any rust formation but as soon as unprotected surfaces hit the air they will start to rust. Dry everything as quickly as possible. Remember that much cold will cause condensation in warm air.
I believ that all of the water entered a one time and froze from the hull surfaces first. The mass of the engine would have kept the water liquid as the rest of it froze. By this time you must know if the hull was damaged. Just pump out the melt water as you can. The cold should have retarded any rust formation but as soon as unprotected surfaces hit the air they will start to rust. Dry everything as quickly as possible. Remember that much cold will cause condensation in warm air.
Ross, nice try but you're wrong
the maximum density of pure water is four degrees C. I suggest you look it up for yourself.
the maximum density of pure water is four degrees C. I suggest you look it up for yourself.
freezing.
Ice expands as it freezes, and contracts as it thaws. most damage is done as it freezes, car engines run without atf are damaged by freezing because the ice expands and has no where to go. (the reason why transplant organs are chilled, not frozen, freezing kills the cells when the water freezes and ruptures the cell walls) should be no real damage caused to the engine from external freezing, my boat before I got it had set for 10 years or so with nobody even looking at it, it had water up to the berth mattresses, the oil had floated out of the engine and was all over the interior, but no damage to either boat or motor from the freeze/thaw cycles, that was an A4 though, heavier casting than newer motors Ken.
Ice expands as it freezes, and contracts as it thaws. most damage is done as it freezes, car engines run without atf are damaged by freezing because the ice expands and has no where to go. (the reason why transplant organs are chilled, not frozen, freezing kills the cells when the water freezes and ruptures the cell walls) should be no real damage caused to the engine from external freezing, my boat before I got it had set for 10 years or so with nobody even looking at it, it had water up to the berth mattresses, the oil had floated out of the engine and was all over the interior, but no damage to either boat or motor from the freeze/thaw cycles, that was an A4 though, heavier casting than newer motors Ken.
Patrick, the maximum density of water
is, as you say at 4 degrees c. But water is a fluid and will not break anything. Ice has a specific gravity of 6/7 that of water that is why ice floats. It is also why ice breaks things. Now go fill a beer bottle with water and put it in the freezer and see if it breacks before your take it out or after.
is, as you say at 4 degrees c. But water is a fluid and will not break anything. Ice has a specific gravity of 6/7 that of water that is why ice floats. It is also why ice breaks things. Now go fill a beer bottle with water and put it in the freezer and see if it breacks before your take it out or after.
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