Fresh Water Rigging Replacement

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higgs

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Aug 24, 2005
3,704
Nassau 34 Olcott, NY
It seems our brothers in salt water do replace their rigging periodically. The other post attracted no fresh water sailors. I am interested in knowing what the fresh water sailors on this site do about replacing rigging. Come on you guys, where are you?
 
Sep 25, 2008
7,337
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
why guess?

Higgs FWIW from a salt water sailor- If you are thinking about it, that's a pretty good indication it should be inspected by a rigger regardless of salt/fresh water. Why guess at it? Fresh water only means less corrosion, not less stress fractures
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Makes no difference

Being in fresh or salt water makes no difference due to atmospheric contaminants .... being downstream of a powerplant, large highway, acid rain, etc. are sometimes WORSE. GUESSING, wringing your hands, etc. will not get you anywhere, Even total replacment of the rigging with new will not give 100% assurance that the rig wont come down (inbuilt materials defects or human error). Most metals including and especially 300 series stainless are materials that have a 'generalized' lifespan when subject to cyclical stress ... something to the value of 1 million load cycles when the material (300 series stainless) is subjected to above 30% of its Ultimate Tensile values. Such materials when repetetively stressed ... simply get 'tired' (fatigue) and lose their strength ... thats why there are junk yards for automobiles and airplanes and ships - they got 'tired'/fatigued. So what can the 'average person' do to validate 'some' structural integrity of their rigging? The simple answer is occasionally PROOF LOAD it (although Proof loading does include some measure or exposure of personal danger ... so Im not telling you to do this, just describing what I do). A DIYer can do this with a simple rigging tension gage; some of the better rigging shops can offer such services (although the price of testing can be as high a new rigging), university mechanics/material labs sometimes will do this, commercial testing labs (again with cost). You can also take the components to an 'automotive machinist' to have the parts, etc. 'magnafluxed', dye-penetrant testing of the terminal ends, etc. to assay for fatigue (can do this yourself), etc. Two main modes of FAILURE: 1. Ductile failure ... where the metal is loaded beyond 'yield' and the result is that the dimensions change permanently. If you carefully measure NEW RIGGING (after being in service for a short time to insure that the 'dimensions' have 'settled-in' to their final new lengths, etc. ..... the wires have to 'work' into their final resting state, etc.), carefully measure the length under a low load (~10% of ultimate tensile strength - use a rigging tension gauge) you will have a benchmark reference for later measurement. When checking in the future (and with the same 'preload' applied) if that (length) dimension has changed (becomes longer) then there is ductile failure (yield) in the assembly then you have YIELD and that signifies FAILURE. If a swage has slipped, etc. this also would show as a 'changed' length. Any 'localized' deformation caused by 'yield' would also be deemed 'failure' .... deformed rigging eyes, clevice pins, bent deformed toggle (T) bolts etc. ... such localized failure 'can' be locally replaced remedied OR the whole assembly replaced. Therefore for DUCTILE failure ... any dimensional change is a FAILURE. If you keep accurate records using these as a reference, you can quite accurately make a very close to accurate decision in the future when you 'remeasure'. All you need is a rigging tension gage, a long steel tape measure, and accurate records. 2. Fatigue (includes crevice, etc. corrosion) Any metal that is stressed will begin the fatigue process at the FIRST loading .... the formation of microcracks along the microscopic 'grain boundaries' within the metal. This process of cracking is ADDITIVE and continual; the more you stress the metal the more microcracks you accumulate. 300 series stainless is especially prone to stress cracking / fatigue. Originally 300 series stainless was conceived for the chemical process industry ... for corrosion resistance properties. Only after 30-40 years do we begin to KNOW the behavior of 300 series stainless (this is the most common stainless used in rigging); so many of the boat designs (rigging) were (then) based on a material that wasnt clearly understood at that time of the original component design. Each metal has a physical property called Endurance Limit .... a value of stress when the metal is NOT loaded above will be (generally) suitable for infinite service versus fatigue ~infinitely. Inotherwords if you do not stress the metal above the 'endurance limit' the accumulation of fatigue will not occur to approach FAILURE. The fatigue/endurance limit of common 300 series stainless steels is approximately 30000 psi. .... about 1/3 the value of the ultimate tensile strength; if you carefully do not load the stainless above 1/3 of its UTS, fatigue is reasonably kept in check (but there are local 'anomalies' and design 'traps' that can lessen the usefulness of the metal therefore the endurance limit is not 'absolute'). A double whammy on boat rigging with 300 series components --- Once the micro cracks of fatigue form they leave an 'opening' for corrosion to begin within the boundaries of the microcracks. Moisture (vapor mostly) penetrates the cracks, crevices, the metal absorbs the oxygen out of the vapor/liquid and corrosion begins on a macromolecular level (crevice, etc. corrosion). The more corrosion forms, the weaker the metal; the weaker the metal the easier for more microcracks to form when the material is stressed and a viscious cycle begins until the metal catastrophically (suddenlly and without warning) fails. Visual Inspection for fatigue: any small visual 'cracks' that appear on the surface of the metal, any 'haze' or loss of 'shine'/smoothness on the surface or any zones (especially near welds, or 'bends' or 'holes', or 'edges' that are showing 'rust'. Its really better to use a high power magnifying glass or pocket microscope (RadioShack used to sell them) to 'look'. If the part is in 'doubt', then you can yourself perform a Dye Penetrant Test on all the 'terminals'. The test pack contains a Cleaner, A penetrating dye, and a developer. West Marine used to sell it and can probably still 'special order' it for you. The dye penetrates into the microcracks, the surface is wiped clean, the developer is sprayed over the part. If there are cracks the dye will absorb from the crack back into the developer (a chalklike substance) and a 'diffuse pink line' will appear over the crack in the developer, no crack and there will be no dye to absorb into the developer. Caution... the dye will deeply penetrate into gel coat so this is all done OFF and away from the boat. Any part that develops the 'teeny pink lines' in the developer, etc. is probably fatigued. You're Not done...... Since developed fatigue also potentially weakens the structure you can 'proof load' the rigging (while using a tension gage) to a relatively high load to discover fatigue that is not 'showing' on the surfaces. Caution - if rigging is loaded to a high % and fails you are at risk to be injured, etc. by the 'snap back' .... I do all the 'proof loading' with my body OFF the boat if possible. I tie the mast addtioinally with halyards, etc. so if a shroud, etc. unexpectedly breaks during the proof loading, the mast doesnt go down/overboard, etc. I load a shroud, etc. manually using a rigging gauge to ~60% breaking strength of indicated load (most Loos gages have these values imprinted ON the gage vs. the wire diameter) ... then I wrap/tie a stout line somewhere near the middle of the shroud and pull the line PERPENDICULAR to the shroud with a winch, etc. (standing nowhere near the shroud in case of 'snap back').... I apply tension to the 'rope' with a winch, etc. while I watch the gage with a binoculars (from a safe distance) until I reach about 75-80% of the breaking strengh as indicated by the gage. For shrouds that require me to be 'close' I put 'slotted' pvc pipe over them to help contain the possible 'snap-back'. Ive discovered several BAD shrouds, terminals, swages, etc. & Ive even broken NEW rigging with this method. Once Im satisfied with the proof loading, then I inspect for the telltales signs of fatigue, then measure to the 'original' dimensions. I ususally do this every 4-5 years or before a long passage. Many 'good' rigging shops will do this proof-loading for you (especially if you dont want to needlesly expose yourself to the dangers of 'snap back' etc.). Proof loading with such crude methods isnt 100% correct ... but it does 'raise your level of confidence' a wee bit more than 'replacing every 5 years. Run away from: "I sailed 30000 miles with mine so you can too, "I used to build boats", self-promoters, etc. etc. etc. etc." Expect the rigging to totally fail after one circumnavigation or equilvalent (1 million load cycles), sooner if the boat is sailed 'hard' (heeling a LOT at 30-45 degrees over), and/or you've been applying humongous backstay tension to keep good shape of the headsails, etc. Any length change = failure Any bent or deformed terminal = failure Any chainplate that's beginning to show ANY visible change- 'dulling', tearing, rust, hole elongation, etc. = failure Any change of 'sheen' or 'shiiney-ness' on the metal = failure Any visible cracks (includes die marks from swaging errors)= failure Any 'rust blooms' - probable failure getting ready to happen Any rig that cant pass a simple crude proof-load to 70% of the tensile value of the wire = failure. Still, nothing beats the practiced eye of an experienced rigger on an 'up the mast inspection' every few years - very inexpensive insurance. They (should) KNOW what's crap and whats 'good' and have the 'eyeball' experience. Lastly, contact your (large) insurance carrier who has volumes of historical data on your particular boat/designer/yard .... if the original design, etc. was substandard there WILL be evidence of 'claims', etc. Also join an internet 'owners group' for your particular boat ... they will sometimes also have the 'historical' data of 'what worked, how long, etc.' Get a 'good' rigger up your mast every now and then (even if you do all your own work/testing, etc.) ..... cheap insurance. If you develop a good constant working relationship with a rigger ... will pay dividends. hope this helps.
 
Jan 26, 2007
308
Norsea 27 Cleveland
Salt v fresh

"Being in fresh or salt water makes no difference..." Maybe not, but cars sure do corrode much more in northern climes where salt is used on the roads in winter, as opposed to southern states where it isn't. Maybe SS is a different story, but I doubt it. While metal fatigue is certainly an issue to consider, isn't it the case that the majority of failures occur at terminal ends of rigging where corrosion (typically hidden by the fittings) has occured? So if microcracks/crevices promote corrosion, and corrosion is worse in a saltwater environment, then it makes sense that saltwater boats have their rigging replaced more often. True or not, I believe it is the perception of freshwater sailors and the reason that higgs is correct in assuming that they replace rigging less often. I would guess that the number of freshwater boats with 15+ year old rigging would flabbergast the experienced saltwater sailor.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Phil .... the answer is still the same

Materials are not always uniform, a lot a 'asian crap' is being sold in the metals market, human error does get involved in swaging, etc., each 'entity' of rigging is a separate entity unto its own. Without 'certifications' for 'any' metal part thats used .... there is always some 'doubt'. The ONLY three ways to know: 1. replace it when your perceived comfort level goes down. 2. test it to some (even poor but repeatable) standard. 3. wait until there IS a failure. <g>
 

higgs

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Aug 24, 2005
3,704
Nassau 34 Olcott, NY
Where are you guys?

Has anyone noticed the absence of fresh water sailors on this thread? What gives?
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Higgs, I keep my boat on the Susquehanna River

Where the tides hold true but the water is fresh. I have friends who have a rigging business, learned the craft in Florida and have never discussed the need to replace standing rigging if it passes visual inspection. To get corrosion you need an electrolite. With the absence of sea water it doesn't exist. If we do sail into salt water on occassion we spend so much time in and on fresh water that, with the rain, the rig gets washed several times each year and is not exposed to salt spray.
 

higgs

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Aug 24, 2005
3,704
Nassau 34 Olcott, NY
Thank you Ross

You have an older boat - have you replaced all your rigging?
 

Manny

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Oct 5, 2006
983
Hunter 82? 37 Cutter Wherever the wind takes me
I replaced the uppers on mine this past winter

Higgs, I replaced the forestay, the split backstay, and the upper shrouds on mine this past winter. I went under the assumption that the rigging was all original and has never been replaced. I don't know if the boat was ever used in salt water. I figured re-rigging was cheap insurance. I plan to replace the lower shrouds next winter. Interestingly when we got the mast down this past winter there was a heck of a kink on one of legs of the split backstay that wasn't noticeable under tension. The forestay also looked really grungy (cdi flexible furler up front). Manny
 
Jan 15, 2007
226
Tartan 34C Beacon, NY
Temperature, salt/fresh, swager all matter

A lot of different factors determine the lifespan of rigging including the temperature, salinity of the water and type of swager used to make the swage. Navtec has published a guideline for riggers and owners and they formed an estimate of the life expectancy of rigging based on climate and water salinity. They say boats based for instance in Florida or the Caribbean Islands can expect 5 to 10 years and boats on the East/West coast of US get 10 to 15 years while Fresh water boats will see15 to 20 years of service. But this is just a guideline and it matters very much what the wire and swage is made from and the choice of swager also makes a great difference. As Brion Toss point out in his Rigger’s Apprentice a swage made with a Kearney machine will not last nearly as long as the same swage made on a rotary hammer swager such as a Torrington machine. Also you can extend the life of a system by choosing the right type of stainless for the wire and swage. The 302/304 stainless is stronger but less corrosion proof then 316 types of stainless but the 316 swage is harder and more likely to suffer from work hardening which leads to early failure from cracking. The size of the wire compared to the strain is also important. In a racing boat you may have strains of 50% or more of the wires rated strength while in a cruising boat the greatest strain might be only 15 to 25% of the rated strength of the wire. In both cases the life of the wire is very different Given the original question I think there are two types of failure that are of interest. A failure of the wire itself and a failure of the swage fitting. Its simple to see if a stand has failed so it’s a no brainer to say that if any strand has failed replace the gang (gang is the riggers term for group of wires) of wires if all the wire was made at the same time. After all, if all the wires are the same age and were subjected to the same conditions and are made of the same stuff it’s not unreasonable to expect it to all have roughly the same lifespan. A failure of the swage fitting is a little harder to predict unless you find a crack. I don’t think you can predict the failure of wire by any other means then visual inspection for corrosion and broken strands. Wire has two types of stretch. One is called construction stretch and that’s from the strands settling into position after the first sail or two. It’s a one time thing and after the wire is first used it’s gone. The other is elastic stretch and it comes and goes as you sail. As long as you don’t exceed the elastic limit for the wire the length of the wire after every sail will return to the same length as before the sail. Other then rolling the boat over in the southern oceans I don’t know of any way to stress a rig in a modern production boat past the elastic limit so in the type of sailing we usually do it’s not a factor. Because of this I don’t think you would see a measurable difference in length between a good wire and a wire just about to fail during normal use. A paper towel or rag rubbed up and down the wire to find broken strands and a visual inspection to find corrosion and checking for cracks in the strands at the mouth of the swage is the best you can do with wire. A swage will sometime give you a warning because it almost always develops cracks before failure. If you are very concerned about drawing the wire out of the swage because you really push the boat you can use red nail polish as a warning method. Just put a dab at the junction of the wire and the swage and if the wire starts to pull out, even a .001 of an inch you will have a break in the red spot of polish. Because a wire that starts to pull out of a swage starts the process with a movement measured in .001’s of an inch measuring the length of a wire with a tape measure is pointless but nail polish will show any movement and might be worthwhile for some people. But after everything is said and done constant vigilance and inspection is the best policy. If you don’t know what to look for have a friend with experience help until you get the opportunity to learn or hire a rigger and watch and ask lots of questions when he does an inspection. All the best, Robert Gainer
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Higgs I replaced the original standing rigging

with Loos 1/4 inch 1-19 cable with staylok terminals. Forestay, backstay 2 upper shrouds and 4 lower shrouds. My materials cost was about 1000 dollars. The original rigging had been in service about 20 years when I bought the boat and was magnetic. I used the forestay and the back stay for lifelines because the old ones were half that size and shedding their jackets.
 
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