Has anyone ever connected there head to a fresh water supply line? I am thinking it would not be a problem and not use much of the fresh water supply which I replenish dockside anyway. I currently close the intake valve and flush the head each time with a couple glasses of fresh water and sometimes add holding tank freshner. It smells much better than when I pull it from the ICW and keeps the head cleaner. I thought maybe I could T the line under the sink and still leave the standard valve for going to the Bahamas. Any concerns? 88 H30
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BIG no-no
Only toilets that are designed by the mfrs to use pressurized water can safely be connected to the fresh water system. No raw water toilet should ever be connected to the onboard fresh water system...it cannot be done without risk of polluting the potable water, damage to the pump, or both...and every toilet mfr warns against it in their installation instructions. So if you want to flush your raw water toilet with fresh water, there are only two safe ways to do it: 1) pour it into the bowl with cup or the shower head...or, 2) tee the head intake line into the head sink drain line so you can flush by drawing water from the sink. The only other alternative is a new toilet designed to use pressurized flush water...and except for the SeaLand 711-M28 Marine Traveler (a self-contained system that includes a 9 gallon tank mounted directly below the toilet), they're all electric.
Only toilets that are designed by the mfrs to use pressurized water can safely be connected to the fresh water system. No raw water toilet should ever be connected to the onboard fresh water system...it cannot be done without risk of polluting the potable water, damage to the pump, or both...and every toilet mfr warns against it in their installation instructions. So if you want to flush your raw water toilet with fresh water, there are only two safe ways to do it: 1) pour it into the bowl with cup or the shower head...or, 2) tee the head intake line into the head sink drain line so you can flush by drawing water from the sink. The only other alternative is a new toilet designed to use pressurized flush water...and except for the SeaLand 711-M28 Marine Traveler (a self-contained system that includes a 9 gallon tank mounted directly below the toilet), they're all electric.
Alternative
You can do this but only if you have or can dedicate one tank to use for the head - simply isolate that tank piping from the fresh water pressure system and run it directly unpressurized to the head intake (presuming you have more than one tank). Don Illusion
You can do this but only if you have or can dedicate one tank to use for the head - simply isolate that tank piping from the fresh water pressure system and run it directly unpressurized to the head intake (presuming you have more than one tank). Don Illusion
Fresh Water Hookup
I hooked up a sprayer to the fresh water system that sits near the toilet,it makes things very easy to flush or clean the toilet,but I still do use the raw water intake to flush also, this way it keeps that part of the system clean,I use the fresh water spray for the last flush. nick
I hooked up a sprayer to the fresh water system that sits near the toilet,it makes things very easy to flush or clean the toilet,but I still do use the raw water intake to flush also, this way it keeps that part of the system clean,I use the fresh water spray for the last flush. nick
Thanks Nick
Thanks Nick, I like the sprayer idea as I have used my shower hookup to clean the head. And I would also like to have a sprayer that is always connected for a shower. Bob
Thanks Nick, I like the sprayer idea as I have used my shower hookup to clean the head. And I would also like to have a sprayer that is always connected for a shower. Bob
I forgot to mention...
That you could install a separate tank, used only for flush water for the toilet...no common plumbing--not even the fill or vent--to your onboard fresh water system. However, room for a separate tank can be hard to find. Connecting the head intake line to the head sink drain allows you to have it both ways...flush with salt water, but be able to rinse it out of the whole system before it can stagnate and stink...just close the seacock, fill the sink with clean water...flush the toilet. Because the seacock is closed, the toilet will pull the water out of the sink.
That you could install a separate tank, used only for flush water for the toilet...no common plumbing--not even the fill or vent--to your onboard fresh water system. However, room for a separate tank can be hard to find. Connecting the head intake line to the head sink drain allows you to have it both ways...flush with salt water, but be able to rinse it out of the whole system before it can stagnate and stink...just close the seacock, fill the sink with clean water...flush the toilet. Because the seacock is closed, the toilet will pull the water out of the sink.
The new Catalina's
have a separate fresh water tank for the heads. They are built to fit into the wall liner of the boat. That is, they are thin and tall.
have a separate fresh water tank for the heads. They are built to fit into the wall liner of the boat. That is, they are thin and tall.
My solution:
I converted the head on my H31 to a freshwater flush a few years back. The improvement in the smell of the boat is remarkable. There is no perceptible head odor at all. The other solutions that were posted would probably accomplish the same thing, and Peggy's warning is appropriate; but this is my solution, and it seems to work fairly well: I installed a 'T' in the cold water line to the sink, and placed a check valve under the sink between the fresh water line and the toilet to prevent contamination of the potable water. As noted by Peggy, the water shutoff (wet/dry valve)on the toilet itself is not designed for pressurized water, so I placed a PVC shutoff valve in the line at the base of the toilet. To flush the toilet, both the in-line valve and the "wet/dry" valve on the toilet must be opened, and then closed when you are done. Generally, as this is mainly a party boat that I use for day sailing with guests, the toilet is operated in the dry-flush mode most of the time, and then I flush the toilet and lines with fresh water at the end of the sail before I leave the boat. A couple ounces of Odorlous, and the boat smells great when I return. I do think that just flushing with fresh water from the sink or the shower head would accomplish the same thing, though. And, of course, it wouldn't require any work. However I also believe that sea water, mixed with waste, in the holding tank itself can also be source of some funky smells after a fairly short time, so I would be pretty rigorous about pumping out before you leave the boat. Either way, a dry holding tank is a nice thing to have, but sometimes it's the last thing I want to do at the end of the day. With freshwater in the tank, I can leave it until the next weekend if I'm feeling lazy.
I converted the head on my H31 to a freshwater flush a few years back. The improvement in the smell of the boat is remarkable. There is no perceptible head odor at all. The other solutions that were posted would probably accomplish the same thing, and Peggy's warning is appropriate; but this is my solution, and it seems to work fairly well: I installed a 'T' in the cold water line to the sink, and placed a check valve under the sink between the fresh water line and the toilet to prevent contamination of the potable water. As noted by Peggy, the water shutoff (wet/dry valve)on the toilet itself is not designed for pressurized water, so I placed a PVC shutoff valve in the line at the base of the toilet. To flush the toilet, both the in-line valve and the "wet/dry" valve on the toilet must be opened, and then closed when you are done. Generally, as this is mainly a party boat that I use for day sailing with guests, the toilet is operated in the dry-flush mode most of the time, and then I flush the toilet and lines with fresh water at the end of the sail before I leave the boat. A couple ounces of Odorlous, and the boat smells great when I return. I do think that just flushing with fresh water from the sink or the shower head would accomplish the same thing, though. And, of course, it wouldn't require any work. However I also believe that sea water, mixed with waste, in the holding tank itself can also be source of some funky smells after a fairly short time, so I would be pretty rigorous about pumping out before you leave the boat. Either way, a dry holding tank is a nice thing to have, but sometimes it's the last thing I want to do at the end of the day. With freshwater in the tank, I can leave it until the next weekend if I'm feeling lazy.
Peggy, What's your opinion?
After reading your book, I'm installing a fresh water Sea Era electric head. Since my wife's primary concern is smell, I'm also considering doing away with the thru hull discharge altogether, and instead use just the 16 gal tank, and a deck pump-out. That would eliminate the diverter valve, the vented loop, and probably six or eight feet of hose. If I can configure my manual bilge pump to pump out from the deck fitting if necessary, do you think I would realize a "smell savings" from keeping the installation simple? I could throw the intake line overboard and rinse out the bilge pump whenever I pumped out, but would that pump still smell?
After reading your book, I'm installing a fresh water Sea Era electric head. Since my wife's primary concern is smell, I'm also considering doing away with the thru hull discharge altogether, and instead use just the 16 gal tank, and a deck pump-out. That would eliminate the diverter valve, the vented loop, and probably six or eight feet of hose. If I can configure my manual bilge pump to pump out from the deck fitting if necessary, do you think I would realize a "smell savings" from keeping the installation simple? I could throw the intake line overboard and rinse out the bilge pump whenever I pumped out, but would that pump still smell?
Rick and Hugh...
Rick, you're playing Russian roulette with your potable water supply...a check valve will not prevent bacteria from migrating from the bowl into your potable water supply. There is so much demand for a means to convert raw water toilets to water from the fresh water supply that, if it could be done without risk of polluting the fresh water supply, at least one toilet mfr--or at least some enterprising entrepeneur--would offer a kit to do it...yet no one does. That SHOULD tell you it's a bad idea. Hugh...I wouldn't do that. For one thing, when it comes to holding tank odor, it makes no difference whatever whether the toilet uses sea water or fresh...fresh water flush only eliminates INTAKE sea water odor and any odor from the head discharge line escaping back into the toilet. However, if you do have odor from the head discharge line--or the tank, coming back into the bowl through head discharge line, Fresh water flush won't cure that problem...it's because the joker valve in your toilet is so worn out that the slit is no longer a slit any more, but a gaping hole...replace it. So dumping the tank over the side via the pumpout fitting is a nasty smelly job no matter what's used to flush the toilet...and your idea would only add more sources for odor. If you want to eliminate the y-valve, install a second discharge port in the tank (easy to do using a Uniseal) for the overboard discharge line. That would allow you to keep the seacock closed forever if you want to...or open the seacock, dump the tank.
Rick, you're playing Russian roulette with your potable water supply...a check valve will not prevent bacteria from migrating from the bowl into your potable water supply. There is so much demand for a means to convert raw water toilets to water from the fresh water supply that, if it could be done without risk of polluting the fresh water supply, at least one toilet mfr--or at least some enterprising entrepeneur--would offer a kit to do it...yet no one does. That SHOULD tell you it's a bad idea. Hugh...I wouldn't do that. For one thing, when it comes to holding tank odor, it makes no difference whatever whether the toilet uses sea water or fresh...fresh water flush only eliminates INTAKE sea water odor and any odor from the head discharge line escaping back into the toilet. However, if you do have odor from the head discharge line--or the tank, coming back into the bowl through head discharge line, Fresh water flush won't cure that problem...it's because the joker valve in your toilet is so worn out that the slit is no longer a slit any more, but a gaping hole...replace it. So dumping the tank over the side via the pumpout fitting is a nasty smelly job no matter what's used to flush the toilet...and your idea would only add more sources for odor. If you want to eliminate the y-valve, install a second discharge port in the tank (easy to do using a Uniseal) for the overboard discharge line. That would allow you to keep the seacock closed forever if you want to...or open the seacock, dump the tank.
OK, Good idea, But
suppose I install a second discharge line from the tank, through some type of pump, and to the thru-hull, without a vented loop. First time I accidentally leave that seacock open for a few days, won't I sink the boat through the tank and back through the joker valve, (because you can never trust a joker). I know that may be a really really stupid thing to do, but then...It seems to me if I'm going to the trouble to put in another discharge line, I might as well add a few feet of hose to go above the waterline and install a vented loop. That puts me back where I started. Maybe you're right, but the way I had presumed I could prevent some odor is by eliminating the extra hose length and connections. Maybe those aren't typically the source of much odor, although on my old installation, they were. My God, what have you done to me? I'm obsessed with this crap. I can't believe I know so much about going to the bathroom on a boat! My one fear is that after I get it all done, we'll go out for the weekend, and spend it sniffing rags and discussing whether and how much the head stinks. I guess that's why God made Rum. Hugh
suppose I install a second discharge line from the tank, through some type of pump, and to the thru-hull, without a vented loop. First time I accidentally leave that seacock open for a few days, won't I sink the boat through the tank and back through the joker valve, (because you can never trust a joker). I know that may be a really really stupid thing to do, but then...It seems to me if I'm going to the trouble to put in another discharge line, I might as well add a few feet of hose to go above the waterline and install a vented loop. That puts me back where I started. Maybe you're right, but the way I had presumed I could prevent some odor is by eliminating the extra hose length and connections. Maybe those aren't typically the source of much odor, although on my old installation, they were. My God, what have you done to me? I'm obsessed with this crap. I can't believe I know so much about going to the bathroom on a boat! My one fear is that after I get it all done, we'll go out for the weekend, and spend it sniffing rags and discussing whether and how much the head stinks. I guess that's why God made Rum. Hugh
Hey, Hugh....
The whole 'wife (female, guest, daughter, date or whatever) vs. head smell issue appears frequently in the archives. And, of course, Peggy is ALWAYS right. Plus, being female gives her the trump card regarding head smell issues. That, and, of course, her unparalleled amount of techical expertise. But I have a fairly stupid question, and a fairly simple answer. And, forgive me if this is something you've already tried. First, the question: is your boat equipped with a manual holding tank diaphram-type pump that is routed to a through hull discharge, with a diverter valve, and a ball or gate valve at the thru-hull fitting, in addition to a deck-mounted pump-out fitting? That's the way my boat is set up, and is fairly standard. Stupid question, I know. I said that. Fairly simple answer: Instead of doing any heavy-duty plumbing changes, what I did before I switched over to the fresh water system, was to flush the toilet with a liberal amount of fresh water, then, pump out the tank. Then partially fill it with fresh water via the deck fitting; pump it out again. Another fresh water rinse, but this time with some bleach, and a little detergent. Pump it out again. You get the picture. At this point, the tank is fairly clean, and if you partially fill the tank with fresh water again, and add some bleach or vinegar (Never both, of course) then you can flush the lines that you DON'T routinely use with fresh water. In my case, I used the manual holding tank pump, with some vinegar (not bleach, as it goes into the Bay) and flushed the lines from the tank to the thru-hull. Then, I closed the thru-hull, repositioned the diverter valve, and had those lines permanently devoid of any smelly stuff. Now, I pump-out exclusively via the deck fitting, and after pumping out, spray some fresh water down through the deck fitting, through the hose, and into the tank to remove any residual waste. Flushing out the tank and clearing the hoses that you don't want to use takes 30 minutes or so. Clearing the hose from the deck fitting to the tank after pumping out only takes 30 seconds. If the lines to the holding tank are not full of residual waste it should inhibit 'saturation' of the hoses with waste, and eliminate any funky smells. The 'fresh water flush' technique before you leave the boat will clear the line from the toilet to the tank, and should eliminate head odors completely. Apparently, I'm lucky just to be alive with my permanent fresh-water flush hooked up as it is, so I think that the simpler methods suggested in the earlier posts might be a better idea. Of course, I'm sticking with the setup that I have. Otherwise, I might have to endure the female head odor issue again at close quarters. Have fun. Good luck - RJ
The whole 'wife (female, guest, daughter, date or whatever) vs. head smell issue appears frequently in the archives. And, of course, Peggy is ALWAYS right. Plus, being female gives her the trump card regarding head smell issues. That, and, of course, her unparalleled amount of techical expertise. But I have a fairly stupid question, and a fairly simple answer. And, forgive me if this is something you've already tried. First, the question: is your boat equipped with a manual holding tank diaphram-type pump that is routed to a through hull discharge, with a diverter valve, and a ball or gate valve at the thru-hull fitting, in addition to a deck-mounted pump-out fitting? That's the way my boat is set up, and is fairly standard. Stupid question, I know. I said that. Fairly simple answer: Instead of doing any heavy-duty plumbing changes, what I did before I switched over to the fresh water system, was to flush the toilet with a liberal amount of fresh water, then, pump out the tank. Then partially fill it with fresh water via the deck fitting; pump it out again. Another fresh water rinse, but this time with some bleach, and a little detergent. Pump it out again. You get the picture. At this point, the tank is fairly clean, and if you partially fill the tank with fresh water again, and add some bleach or vinegar (Never both, of course) then you can flush the lines that you DON'T routinely use with fresh water. In my case, I used the manual holding tank pump, with some vinegar (not bleach, as it goes into the Bay) and flushed the lines from the tank to the thru-hull. Then, I closed the thru-hull, repositioned the diverter valve, and had those lines permanently devoid of any smelly stuff. Now, I pump-out exclusively via the deck fitting, and after pumping out, spray some fresh water down through the deck fitting, through the hose, and into the tank to remove any residual waste. Flushing out the tank and clearing the hoses that you don't want to use takes 30 minutes or so. Clearing the hose from the deck fitting to the tank after pumping out only takes 30 seconds. If the lines to the holding tank are not full of residual waste it should inhibit 'saturation' of the hoses with waste, and eliminate any funky smells. The 'fresh water flush' technique before you leave the boat will clear the line from the toilet to the tank, and should eliminate head odors completely. Apparently, I'm lucky just to be alive with my permanent fresh-water flush hooked up as it is, so I think that the simpler methods suggested in the earlier posts might be a better idea. Of course, I'm sticking with the setup that I have. Otherwise, I might have to endure the female head odor issue again at close quarters. Have fun. Good luck - RJ
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