Fresh water flush

[Xstream]

I have a Jabsco twist and lock manual toilet: # 29090-5000 that I have installed in a restoration of a Beneteau Oceanis 281. The boat is still on the hard. I would like to convert this unit to a fresh water flush. Jabsco makes a solenoid water control valve with a syphon breaker. The solenoid is normally closed, but opens when energized. With this device, I plumb it into my fresh water system and add a switch to open the valve. Will this work?

 

[kappykaplan]

Tagging @Peggie Hall HeadMistress . She'll let you know.

 

[Tally Ho]

Peggy has a “poor man’s” solution that is really cheap…

Basically, cut a T into the sink drain line (this assumes a below the waterline thruhull), and pump the water intake for the head to this T.

For regular lake water flushes, have the thru-hull for the sink open (and draw water for the flush from the lake. To,do a freshwater flush, close the thruhull and run potable water into the sink drain…so when you flush it draws from the water captured in the sink drain.

Otherwise, I am sure Peggy will offer more suggestions for a real “fresh water“ option (and probably correct my summary above).

Greh

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Connecting any raw water toilet to the fresh water plumbing is major no-no and every toilet mfr warns against it for several reasons, not the least of which is, sea water toilets are designed to PULL flush water in, toilets designed to fresh water must use pressurized fresh water...the solenoid acts much the same as a sink faucet does--opening to allow water to flow into the bowl, closing to block it. The water doesn't go through the pump, it goes directly into the bowl. You wouldn't be able to use the solenoid unless you installed a flush button too, both of which require electrical wiring.

There is only one MANUAL toilet designed to use fresh water: The Raritan Fresh Head FRESH_HEAD Promo Sheet. People who have one love it!

If you want to stick with your Jabsco and only want to use fresh water to eliminate the odor created by stagnant sea water left to sit in the toilet plumbing while you're away from the boat between uses, there's an easy--and very inexpensive--way to do it:
Sink drain thru-hulls are below the waterline on almost all sailboats. Close the intake thru-hull and remove the intake line. Re-route it to tee or wye it into the head sink drain line as close to the seacock as possible because the connection must be below waterline to work.
This will allow you to flush normally with sea water. After you’ve closed the sink drain seacock in preparation to close up the boat (you do close all seacocks before leaving the boat to sit??), fill the sink with clean fresh water and flush the toilet. Because the seacock is closed, the toilet will draw the water out of the sink, rinsing the sea water out of the entire system—intake line, pump, channel in the rim of the bowl and the discharge line,(Water poured into the bowl only rinses out the toilet discharge line). Or you can keep the sink drain seacock closed except when it's needed to drain the sink and flush with fresh water down the sink all the time...your choice.

--Peggie

 

[Xstream]

I've never had a marine toilet and don't fully understand the procedure, but if my freshwater system is "on" and I push/pull a switch to energize the solenoid to allow water to go to the toilet, what is the difference to the toilet where the water comes from? Seems to me that if the water came from the thru hull inlet, there would be a certain amount of pressure just because the inlet is below the waterline, at least when I pull the knot meter out and stick the plug in, the water comes in with some force.

 

[dlochner]

I've never had a marine toilet and don't fully understand the procedure, but if my freshwater system is "on" and I push/pull a switch to energize the solenoid to allow water to go to the toilet, what is the difference to the toilet where the water comes from? Seems to me that if the water came from the thru hull inlet, there would be a certain amount of pressure just because the inlet is below the waterline, at least when I pull the knot meter out and stick the plug in, the water comes in with some force.

The concern is the pump. On a marine head the pump is a dual action pump and it pumps both sewage and water in the same pump chamber. On the up stroke the pump sucks water from the bowl on the down stroke it pushes that water through the joker valve to the holding tank or overboard and sucks in seawater.

If the pump piston should wear and leak there is the potential for the fresh water system to become contaminated by sewage, which would be a very bad thing to happen. Granted it is a small possibility, but the consequences are huge.

 

[Xstream]

At the toilet is a little "switch" that allows the pump to fill or drain the bowl. One pumps the bowl dry, then moves the "switch" to the other side and pumps water into the bowl. I would have an electric switch to energize the solenoid to send water to the toilet. The solenoid control valve has a syphon break to prevent back flow. One could even have a check valve in the hose to the toilet to prevent back flow. Once the bowl is pumped full, reach over and turn off the solenoid and stop the water flow. Move the valve at the toilet to pump the bowl dry.

 

[dlochner]

At the toilet is a little "switch" that allows the pump to fill or drain the bowl. One pumps the bowl dry, then moves the "switch" to the other side and pumps water into the bowl. I would have an electric switch to energize the solenoid to send water to the toilet. The solenoid control valve has a syphon break to prevent back flow. One could even have a check valve in the hose to the toilet to prevent back flow. Once the bowl is pumped full, reach over and turn off the solenoid and stop the water flow. Move the valve at the toilet to pump the bowl dry.

Those little valves leak. That's why it is important to have a vented loop between the pump and the bowl.

The safest way is to do as Peggie suggested and T into the sink drain or to use a system that relies on pressurized water or a separate pump to provide water directly to the bowl by passing the hand pump.

 

[Xstream]

This boat has a freshwater pump just like an RV. With the water pump "on", energizing the solenoid sends water to the toilet. Once the pressure is equalized, the pump shuts off. With the wet bowl valve open, the toilet pump draws pressurized water from the system and pushes it into the bowl. The process is repeated until enough water is in the bowl. Then the solenoid is shut off. With a check valve in the hose, some pressure may remain. Move to the dry bowl and pump the water out of the bowl and off to the holding tank. Even if the valve at the toilet leaks, it should not overcome the pressure in the freshwater line or the check valve in the hose or the syphon break at the solenoid.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

I've never had a marine toilet and don't fully understand the procedure, but if my freshwater system is "on" and I push/pull a switch to energize the solenoid to allow water to go to the toilet,

Apparently you have a toilet designed to use pressurized fresh water. If so, it does not have a pump to pull water in...when the switch is in the position to bring in flush water, the solenoid valve opens to allow water into the bowl, shuts off when you remove your finger from the switch. I can be certain of that if you can provide the make/model or post a photo of it and also a photo of the switch panel. Once I know for certain what you have, I'll be able to post links to the owners manual(s) for it.

----Peggie

 

[Xstream]

As per the first post: I have a Jabsco twist and lock manual toilet: # 29090-5000.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Uh-oh...I missed that. It did seem like an overly complex plumbing scheme. It should NOT have been plumbed to use flush water from your fresh water plumbing. If you want to continue using fresh water and want to stay with a manual toilet, I strongly recommend that you replace your Jabsco with the Raritan Fresh Head FRESH_HEAD Promo Sheet I referenced in my post #4. It's the ONLY manual toilet that's designed to fresh water, making it safe to connect to the fresh water system.

Since you're brand new to all of this, I suggest you get a copy of my book (see link in my signature below). Its title (my publisher's idea) is a bit misleading...'cuz although it does deal with every source of odor on a boat and how to cure, or better yet PREVENT 'em, it's actually a comprehensive "marine toilets and sanitation systems 101" manual that explains the laws, describes all the types of systems and how they work, and will help you learn how to operate and maintain your system to prevent 99% of problems instead of having to cure 'em. 'Cuz you get to do any preventive maintenance on your terms when it's convenient...the need to cure a problem never happens when it is! And I'm always glad to answer any questions it doesn't.

--Peggie

 

[Xstream]

How does the toilet know whether the water at the supply is fresh or salt?
What difference does it make if the supply is pressurized? Wouldn't that just help the toilet pump fill quicker?
I will use this device plumbed into my system to supply water to the toilet. I already have a brand new toilet, so I am not going to buy another one. A switch will open this this device when the toilet is on "wet bowl" and close it after the bowl is full.
Jabsco Head Solenoid Valve/Anti-Syphon Breaker-12v

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

I've never had a marine toilet and don't fully understand the procedure How does the toilet know whether the water at the supply is fresh or salt?
It doesn't. But you will if salt water contaminates your fresh water supply.

What difference does it make if the supply is pressurized?
Toilets designed to use fresh water MUST use pressurized water because pressurized water can't backflow when when flushing stops. The last thing you'd want is bacteria from the bowl migrating into your freshwater.

I will use this device plumbed into my system to supply water to the toilet.

You opened the conversation by admitting you'd never had a marine toilet and don't fully understand them. In which case I strongly suspect that there are whole bunch more systems on your boat that you've never had any experience with. If you're no more open to help from others who have experience and knowledge about all those systems than you are about marine toilets (and btw, no one has suggested you replace it, only that you replumb it work the way it's desgned to work), I wish you luck...'cuz you're gonna need it!

--Peggie

 

[Stu Jackson]

What difference does it make if the supply is pressurized? Wouldn't that just help the toilet pump fill quicker?

@Xstream
Perhaps I can help. You may be sensing frustration from earlier replies. I believe this is due to your misunderstanding of how marine toilets actually work. Per your quote above, they do NOT work like household toilets. There is no cistern and do not depend on pressurized water. Rather, they are filled and evacuated by the manual pump that is attached. The pump chamber has a piston, with sea water above it and waste water below it. When you pull the handle up, waste water is drawn into the lower part of the pump and sea water is pumped out into the bowl. Then, when you push the handle down, the waste water is expelled into the discharge pipe, and more sea water is sucked in to the upper part of the pump. The flush/dry lever controls a little valve which stops sea water being sucked in to the pump. That is one difference. The other major one is that you never want to ever connect them to your boat's freshwater system because of the risk of contamination. Bacteria doesn't give a sh*t about solenoid valves. But you should.

Look, you may be new to this, but all of us were at one time. Peggie is thoughtful and helpful and literally wrote the book on this subject. Please, please, please, listen to what she tells you.

All the best.

 

[dlochner]

How does the toilet know whether the water at the supply is fresh or salt?
What difference does it make if the supply is pressurized? Wouldn't that just help the toilet pump fill quicker?
I will use this device plumbed into my system to supply water to the toilet. I already have a brand new toilet, so I am not going to buy another one. A switch will open this this device when the toilet is on "wet bowl" and close it after the bowl is full.
Jabsco Head Solenoid Valve/Anti-Syphon Breaker-12v

I think you need to learn the language of sailing and boating. You are correct, the head doesn't care if the water is fresh water or salt water. However, in the language of boat plumbing, there is a huge difference between seawater (be it fresh, salt, or brackish) and fresh water. In the language of boat plumbing freshwater is water from the water tanks that you drink from. The advice you have been given has been using the standard language of boat plumbing.

If you want to chance poisoning the fresh water tanks on your boat, then go with your plan. It seems that you have already decided that is what you want to do and are only looking for others to support your decision, which we won't do because it is a bad idea.

Buy Peggy's book or get a good book on boat systems like Nigel Calder's books and read them multiple times so you understand the systems you are using.

Listen more and disagree less, you will learn more.

 

[Xstream]

I've never had a marine toilet and don't fully understand the procedure How does the toilet know whether the water at the supply is fresh or salt?
It doesn't. But you will if salt water contaminates your fresh water supply.

What difference does it make if the supply is pressurized?
Toilets designed to use fresh water MUST use pressurized water because pressurized water can't backflow when when flushing stops. The last thing you'd want is bacteria from the bowl migrating into your freshwater.

I will use this device plumbed into my system to supply water to the toilet.

You opened the conversation by admitting you'd never had a marine toilet and don't fully understand them. In which case I strongly suspect that there are whole bunch more systems on your boat that you've never had any experience with. If you're no more open to help from others who have experience and knowledge about all those systems than you are about marine toilets (and btw, no one has suggested you replace it, only that you replumb it work the way it's desgned to work), I wish you luck...'cuz you're gonna need it!

--Peggie

It doesn't. But you will if salt water contaminates your fresh water supply.
This boat is on an inland lake and will not have a connection to lake water.

Toilets designed to use fresh water MUST use pressurized water because pressurized water can't backflow when when flushing stops. The last thing you'd want is bacteria from the bowl migrating into your freshwater.
Correct. That's why I will be using pressurized water-because it can't backflow.

You opened the conversation by admitting you'd never had a marine toilet and don't fully understand them. In which case I strongly suspect that there are whole bunch more systems on your boat that you've never had any experience with.
Instead of using the 50 gallon fresh water tank on the boat, I have replaced it with a 13.5 gallon flexible tank. I have replumbed the water system with Whale 15mm tubing and quick connect fittings. I have replaced the galley and head faucets. I have rewired the electrical control panel to minimize the chaos. I replaced the transom shower and all the halogen lights with led's. I removed and cleaned out the holding tank and replaced all the hoses. I removed the diesel fuel tank and emptied the water inside along with a bunch of gunk. I replaced the water separator filter. I replaced the fuel lines at the fuel tank (1985) and to the engine. I tossed the 1994 hot water tank and bypassed the hot/cold freshwater and the heat exchanger water lines as well. I will soon be scuffing off the VC 17 and preparing the hull for barrier paint which it doesn't have now. Once I get four or five coats of barrier on, I'll follow up with two or three coats of Hydrocoat.
It is too bad I mentioned not having a marine toilet.
(and btw, no one has suggested you replace it, only that you replumb it work the way it's designed to work)
I strongly recommend that you replace your Jabsco with the Raritan Fresh Head FRESH_HEAD Promo Sheet I referenced in my post #4.
Thank you for your recommendations and concerns. We'll see how it works out. Thanks again.

 

[Xstream]

@Xstream
Perhaps I can help. You may be sensing frustration from earlier replies. I believe this is due to your misunderstanding of how marine toilets actually work. Per your quote above, they do NOT work like household toilets. There is no cistern and do not depend on pressurized water. Rather, they are filled and evacuated by the manual pump that is attached. The pump chamber has a piston, with sea water above it and waste water below it. When you pull the handle up, waste water is drawn into the lower part of the pump and sea water is pumped out into the bowl. Then, when you push the handle down, the waste water is expelled into the discharge pipe, and more sea water is sucked in to the upper part of the pump. The flush/dry lever controls a little valve which stops sea water being sucked in to the pump. That is one difference. The other major one is that you never want to ever connect them to your boat's freshwater system because of the risk of contamination. Bacteria doesn't give a sh*t about solenoid valves. But you should.

Look, you may be new to this, but all of us were at one time. Peggie is thoughtful and helpful and literally wrote the book on this subject. Please, please, please, listen to what she tells you.

All the best.

@Xstream
Perhaps I can help. You may be sensing frustration from earlier replies. I believe this is due to your misunderstanding of how marine toilets actually work. Per your quote above, they do NOT work like household toilets. There is no cistern and do not depend on pressurized water. Rather, they are filled and evacuated by the manual pump that is attached. The pump chamber has a piston, with sea water above it and waste water below it. When you pull the handle up, waste water is drawn into the lower part of the pump and sea water is pumped out into the bowl. Then, when you push the handle down, the waste water is expelled into the discharge pipe, and more sea water is sucked in to the upper part of the pump. The flush/dry lever controls a little valve which stops sea water being sucked in to the pump. That is one difference. The other major one is that you never want to ever connect them to your boat's freshwater system because of the risk of contamination. Bacteria doesn't give a sh*t about solenoid valves. But you should.

Look, you may be new to this, but all of us were at one time. Peggie is thoughtful and helpful and literally wrote the book on this subject. Please, please, please, listen to what she tells you.

All the best.

Okay Stu, I yield to the wisdom card. Despite my belief that it would work, I will stop beating this poor, dead horse. I will utilize the space vacated by my hot water tank for a separate water tank plumbed directly to the toilet and not connected to the rest of the boat. Thanks for your help.

 

[Xstream]

It doesn't. But you will if salt water contaminates your fresh water supply.
This boat is on an inland lake and will not have a connection to lake water.

Toilets designed to use fresh water MUST use pressurized water because pressurized water can't backflow when when flushing stops. The last thing you'd want is bacteria from the bowl migrating into your freshwater.
Correct. That's why I will be using pressurized water-because it can't backflow.

You opened the conversation by admitting you'd never had a marine toilet and don't fully understand them. In which case I strongly suspect that there are whole bunch more systems on your boat that you've never had any experience with.
Instead of using the 50 gallon fresh water tank on the boat, I have replaced it with a 13.5 gallon flexible tank. I have replumbed the water system with Whale 15mm tubing and quick connect fittings. I have replaced the galley and head faucets. I have rewired the electrical control panel to minimize the chaos. I replaced the transom shower and all the halogen lights with led's. I removed and cleaned out the holding tank and replaced all the hoses. I removed the diesel fuel tank and emptied the water inside along with a bunch of gunk. I replaced the water separator filter. I replaced the fuel lines at the fuel tank (1985) and to the engine. I tossed the 1994 hot water tank and bypassed the hot/cold freshwater and the heat exchanger water lines as well. I will soon be scuffing off the VC 17 and preparing the hull for barrier paint which it doesn't have now. Once I get four or five coats of barrier on, I'll follow up with two or three coats of Hydrocoat.
It is too bad I mentioned not having a marine toilet.
(and btw, no one has suggested you replace it, only that you replumb it work the way it's designed to work)
I strongly recommend that you replace your Jabsco with the Raritan Fresh Head FRESH_HEAD Promo Sheet I referenced in my post #4.
Thank you for your recommendations and concerns. We'll see how it works out. Thanks again.

Peggie,
As I mentioned to Stu, I will stop beating this particular dead horse and instead utilize the space vacated by my hot water tank to install a separate water tank plumbed directly to the toilet and not connected to the rest of the boat. Thanks again.

 

[Stu Jackson]

This boat is on an inland lake and will not have a connection to lake water.

and instead utilize the space vacated by my hot water tank to install a separate water tank plumbed directly to the toilet and not connected to the rest of the boat.

Hello again.
Some further explanation, and also to hope to avoid you having to do unnecessary work.
The REASON people consider using fresh water for manual toilets is BECAUSE they float in SALT WATER with their boats, and because when saltwater sits in the toilet hoses unused it SMELLS when the head is pumped. That is the ONLY reason. That simple. Really.
You are in a fresh water lake. You do not have this problem. There is abslutely NO reason to bother using drinking water to flush your toilet. There is no reason to not simply use the thru hull inlet valve for your toilet. You will NOT get the smells associated with saltwater in marine toilets.
Save yourself all the work.
All the best.