Freedom 20 Echo Charger

[wgkenney]

All,

With the help from several of you about a month ago I installed a xantrex echo charger to trickle charge my genset start battery from my house bank. I installed it in August and it works great. With my voltmeter I can see that my start battery is at about same voltage as the house when the echo charger switches on so I know I'm getting the current there to keep the charge up.

This has, however, raised another issue. At the suggestion of others in this group, I have set my diesel start battery up as a pure reserve battery. It is isolated from the house bank and I use the house bank to start the diesel. My boat is a Beneteau 473 and has the traditional switch set up for a Beneteau with each battery bank having an on/off switch. So with my start battery "off" and my house "on" the switches stay in the same position and the start battery becomes a full reserve battery.

The start battery is supposed to be charged by the echo charger from my freedom 20 charger. But I have noted that the voltage at the start battery has been going down slowly over the year (in may it was 12.75v and now in September it is 12.35v). So I am trying to figure out if the freedom 20 echo charge function is working or not. I do notice a slight uptick in voltage at the start battery when the freedom 20 is in bulk or acceptance. But it is a small amount. Say from 12.35v to 12.40v.

So how can I verify that the current is there charging the start battery? It is suppose to supply up to 15amps at 14.4v. Should I be seeing higher voltage at the start battery when the echo charger should be on (like on the xantrex setup on my genset battery)?

I understand how the xantrex echo charger on my genset battery works. I understand when it is suppose to cut on and off, how the voltage and current works etc. So I know it is working. I'm not, however, sure how the freedom 20 echo charger works so not sure what to look for to verify it is actually charging the start battery. How do I verify that it is operating. What voltage should I be seeing at the start battery or are there other things I can check to verify it is working?

Thanks

Glenn

 

[Stu Jackson]

Glenn, it sounds like you have two echo chargers. Am I missing something? A wiring diagram would be of great hep for us to help you.

 

[wgkenney]

Stu it is not really two.


My genset battery is completely isolated from the rest of the electrical system. So I installed a separate xantrex echo charger that connects the house battery with genset start battery when the echo charger switches on

My Freedom 20 inverter / charger has a "built in" echo charger in it. There is a wire coming out of the "echo charger" port on the charger and it is suppose to run to the diesel start battery's positive terminal. According to the Beneteau wiring diagram it runs to the start battery's battery switch on then battery side. I'm honestly not sure how this works. There is only a paragraph in the manual and it says that it delivers up to 15 amps to the start battery. Does not give much detail. So while they refer to it as an echo charger I'm not sure it works the same way as my real xantrex echo charger.

I'm sending this while I'm on the boat this weekend so I'm using my iPad. Not sure how to attach a diagram. I'll do that when I get home Sunday and am on my computer.

Glenn

 

[Stu Jackson]

So, you do have two. One separate, one on your Freedom.

Let's wait til you get home to continue.

Fair winds.

Stu

 

[Allan12210]

How about taking the charger echo wire and send that to the stand alone echo charger that combines only the two start batteries? When the house is full from the charger, then start battery #1 gets a charge (uncombined stand alone echo charger) followed by start #2 (combined stand alone echo charger). You can decide whether the genset deserves more priority than the reserve starter. This senario will not provide for charging of the two start batteries from the alternator, however the genset can do that via the stand alone charger. Or maybe after looking at your schematic, that's how it is operating anyway. And, actually, do you really need a pair of start batteries? Just use the genset start battery as a reserve starter if you ever need it. That way you are back to the single echo charger and some wiring of the battery switches.

Allan

 

[wgkenney]

Thanks guys.

Stu, if the freedom 20 echo charger function works like a regular stand alone echo charger then I have two. So when the freedom 20 echo charger is on what voltage should I be seeing at the start battery? I'm not sure how the freedom 20 works so I'm not sure if it will show the same voltage that is at the house or if it just sends the amps?

Alan, just trying to figure out if this is working for now. I'm okay with my set up as is. Looking to understand what I should be seeing so I can understand how, and if, it is working as intended.

G

 

[Stu Jackson]

Glenn, you can download the manual for your Freedom 20 here:

DISCONTINUED XANTREX PRODUCTS LINK

http://www.xantrex.com/power-produc.../discontinued-products-inverter-chargers.aspx

It sounds like the Freedom 20 echo charger (built-in) is connected to your house bank and to the engine reserve bank, and your second ec is connected to your house bank and to your generator start battery. Is this right?

When the Freedom 20 is ON, you should see the same voltage at your reserve bank as you see at your house bank. The ec passes the same voltage, it only limits the current to the reserve bank.

 

[wgkenney]

Stu

On the Freedom 20 there is a "port" on the side of the IC unit that says "echo charge" with one small wire coming out. This wire runs out and through conduit to the battery side of the start battery's on/off switch. So I am not sure what the source is since it comes off the IC. I was thinking that the IC supplies the input versus the house battery.

The freedom 20 manual says that "the echo charge senses if the start battery needs charging and diverts a portion of the current (up to 15 amps) to the start battery". It also says that "the echo charger will turn ON any time the house battery is above 13volts, regardless of the charging source". So since my float voltage is always above 13 volts when I'm in port on shore power this echo charger should be ON when the IC is connected to shore power. And it sounds like the charger is just taking some of the current from the IC and diverting to the start battery.

You are correct on the stand alone EC for the genset start battery. It is a standard configuration with the input coming from the house bank and the output going to the genset start battery. When that EC is on the house and start are at the same voltage.

Glenn

 

[Stu Jackson]

Stu

1. On the Freedom 20 there is a "port" on the side of the IC unit that says "echo charge" with one small wire coming out. This wire runs out and through conduit to the battery side of the start battery's on/off switch. So I am not sure what the source is since it comes off the IC. I was thinking that the IC supplies the input versus the house battery.

2. The freedom 20 manual says that "the echo charge senses if the start battery needs charging and diverts a portion of the current (up to 15 amps) to the start battery". It also says that "the echo charger will turn ON any time the house battery is above 13volts, regardless of the charging source". So since my float voltage is always above 13 volts when I'm in port on shore power this echo charger should be ON when the IC is connected to shore power. And it sounds like the charger is just taking some of the current from the IC and diverting to the start battery.

3. You are correct on the stand alone EC for the genset start battery. It is a standard configuration with the input coming from the house bank and the output going to the genset start battery. When that EC is on the house and start are at the same voltage.

Glenn,

1. The SOURCE is the charger side of the IC. Not sure why you question that part of the idea, 'cuz that's what all ec's do - take a limited amount of 15A of current AT THE CHARGING VOLTAGE and send it to the secondary bank. The charger charges the house bank, when the ec sees the +13V it turns on and charges the reserve bank. The ONLY difference between it and your other ec is that the Freedom 20 ec happens to be mounted on the IC case.

2. Yes, that's what it is supposed to do. The voltages, once the ec is "energized" should be the same for both banks, just like your "other" ec.

3. Yes, it is doing what is supposed to do.

Question is why isn't your Freedom 20-mounted ec doing that?

First thing that comes to mind is that the house bank is working with two ec's. But that shouldn't be a problem since all the ec's are doing is transferring charge to your second and third banks (reserve and generator). House bank voltage goes up when being charged, second and third banks get charged through the two ecs.

It sounds like, if your voltage on the reserve bank is not going up when charging on either source (i.e., Freedom or generator), that the ec on the Freedom is dead.

You may want to consider disconnecting your generator ec and see if the Freedom ec works. That's what I'd do if it was my boat. Gotta admit this is the first time I've personally heard of two ec's on a boat, but probably not an "unheard of" scenario.

Let us know. Good luck.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Another thought

In your first post you mentioned the "traditional" Beneteau wiring and an On/Off switch for the start bank.

Do you have those two red switches and one black switch?

 

[wgkenney]

Thanks Stu,

I'm back home now and have attched two files. One is MY basic diagram of my electrical system. The other is the stock configurartion as delivered from Beneteau. Since the Genset was added at the dealer it only shows up on my drawing. The previous owner had it set up so that the genset start circuit is completely seperate from the rest of the electrical. So this is why I added the second echo charger this year. It keeps the start battery for the genset charged. Otherwise it is only charged by the alternator on the genset when the genset is run.

The previous owner use to just leave all the switches closed so that the diesel start battery was paralleled with the house bank. I did not feel that it was good to overcharge it with the IC. So we use to parallel it to start the diesel then isolate it when we started to sail. Worked fine but was a pain. So this year I decided to just start on the house bank and keep the start as a "reserve". Since the IC echo charger was already wired this seemed like it should work fine.

Thanks for clarifying how the Freedom 20 IC EC operates. I was not questioning the source, just did not understand it. Now that I do, it looks like I should be seeing the charge voltage at the reserve battery .... and I'm not. So like you said the question is why.

So there are really only two main issues. Either the current is not getting to the battery (the fuse is blown or not connected correctly) or the EC is not functioning. Unfortuantely it could be either. Last year the IC fan died and I did not notice (funny how you are so aware of things when they cut on, but you don't always notice when silence indicates that something that should be on is not). So we fryed some of the boards and had to ship back to Xantrex. The Xantrex group was really a pain to work with. Took them two times to get it working again. So they may not have tested the EC function or it could have not been installed properly when it was put back in.

So I can check the fuse and connection but my concern is that it is the actual EC function. And I'm not in the mood to deal with Xantrex again.

You are correct I have the red and black switches on my set up. As you can see on the drawing I actually have 4 red swithces (start, house, inverter, genset) and the one black neg switch.

Thanks

Glenn

 

[wgkenney]

BTW Stu. Love the picture of your boat. Was the water really that calm when you took it or did you cheat like I did on mine and photoshop the calm water and relection in?

 

[mitiempo]

Glenn

With the Freedom charging measure the voltage at the house bank and then measure the Echo output starting at the Freedom itself. If the voltage is comparable to the house bank work down the line checking each connection, fuse, etc. If the Echo output is not comparable to the house bank voltage the Echo is likely not functioning.

Stu

I have seen multiple Echo Charge units on boats and there are no issues - you could install 3 off the house for start, genset, and windlass batteries for example and they will all function together as they only care about the voltage of the supply bank - the house bank.

 

[wgkenney]

Thanks Mitiempo --- I've got my meter on the boat and will do. I'm hoping this is a bad fuse or connection. Now that you guys have helped me understand what to look for I can work the issue.

Glenn

 

[Stu Jackson]

BTW Stu. Love the picture of your boat. Was the water really that calm when you took it or did you cheat like I did on mine and photoshop the calm water and relection in?

Thanks. I don't know how to use Photoshop! Could the reflection be a giveaway? It was dawn, and yes, no air. A lovely morning, coffee in hand.

In fact, I had another picture taken at the same time with a perfect reflection. It just didn't look right, so I dipped my finger in the water to get just a tad of waves to break up the hull's reflection.

 

[wgkenney]

It is a great shot. I've been trying to get a shot of my boat with that glass like water. We always seem to have some slight ripples (okay I'm lazy and not usually up until 7:30 or 8:00 when we anchor). So I finally used an old photoshop trick to flip the image and make it appear like the water was glass.

Again great shot.

Glenn

 

[Maine Sail]

Glenn

With the Freedom charging measure the voltage at the house bank and then measure the Echo output starting at the Freedom itself. If the voltage is comparable to the house bank work down the line checking each connection, fuse, etc. If the Echo output is not comparable to the house bank voltage the Echo is likely not functioning.

Bingo! Start at the IC and work your way towards the battery bank. I will just add to make sure the Echo feature is actually turned on. With the remote panel I recall there being an option to turn it off.

 

[wgkenney]

Thanks Maine .... I'll need to go take a look at that before I start the other stuff. I did not remember that.