I wondered if I could start a general discussion with regard to the fractional or BandR rig (which is the typical Hunter rig...newer models), vs. the masthead rig (like most Catalina's, Beneteau's etc). I have to say that I have certain mixed feelings, and I was curious to hear others opinions. I currently am the proud owner of a Hunter 29.5, and have also owned a h27, so I have experience with both types of rigs. I have my likes and dislikes about both systems, but I won't get into them until I hear some other views. Thanks in advance (been wanting to post this thread for some time)...
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Knotlines
The Hunter newsletter "Knotlines" had a really good discussion on this topic. I can't remember which issue, but it was recent, like last fall. Of course it was written by Hunter, who favor fractional rigs, but the author did a good job of explaining the differneces.
The Hunter newsletter "Knotlines" had a really good discussion on this topic. I can't remember which issue, but it was recent, like last fall. Of course it was written by Hunter, who favor fractional rigs, but the author did a good job of explaining the differneces.
My Opinion has changed on this one
I was always a believer in full masthead rigs having sailed them for many years. It seemed like a rare occasion when a fractional rig could keep up with me. After sailing a few of them I changed my opinion and would consider owning one now. It was a chore to tame a large jib on my h34 in high winds with the undersized winches from the factory. I sailed an Ericson 33 a few times and got beat by them on more than one occasion. If they are easier to sail and still perform why not? The only disadvantage I see now is they have a taller mast. Although I don't think I'd buy another Hunter, there may be a fraction rig in my future.
I was always a believer in full masthead rigs having sailed them for many years. It seemed like a rare occasion when a fractional rig could keep up with me. After sailing a few of them I changed my opinion and would consider owning one now. It was a chore to tame a large jib on my h34 in high winds with the undersized winches from the factory. I sailed an Ericson 33 a few times and got beat by them on more than one occasion. If they are easier to sail and still perform why not? The only disadvantage I see now is they have a taller mast. Although I don't think I'd buy another Hunter, there may be a fraction rig in my future.
I've had both
and agree that both have their benefits. I've had a Catalina 25, Beneteau 32s5, and Hunter 380. The Beneteau and Hunter have the fractional rig. The Beneteau was a First series which is their go-fast boat. Insofar as sailing downwind the fractional rigs don't seem to sail as fast thus requiring a cruising chute if you want to stay up with the pack. However pointing or dealing with heavy weather, it seems to me that the fractional rigs have a better shape when reefed and the boat sails fast and relatively flat without fighting weather helm. I too, look forward to reading this trend to get other people's perspective.
and agree that both have their benefits. I've had a Catalina 25, Beneteau 32s5, and Hunter 380. The Beneteau and Hunter have the fractional rig. The Beneteau was a First series which is their go-fast boat. Insofar as sailing downwind the fractional rigs don't seem to sail as fast thus requiring a cruising chute if you want to stay up with the pack. However pointing or dealing with heavy weather, it seems to me that the fractional rigs have a better shape when reefed and the boat sails fast and relatively flat without fighting weather helm. I too, look forward to reading this trend to get other people's perspective.
yes, I have THAT "Knotline" issue
Thanks Steve...it was a pretty good article. I am relatively familiar with both systems. Just wanted to hear what others thought. For me, it's always a bit of a chore raising that big Main (and my girlfriend HATES it!!), however, with a boat my size or larger, I would guess that it would be just as much of a chore unfurling a 150 Genny (on a masthead rig). Also on the fractional rig, downwind sailing can be a pain without flying the chute...I did like the old days when I could use my genny as a kind of cruising spinnaker.
Thanks Steve...it was a pretty good article. I am relatively familiar with both systems. Just wanted to hear what others thought. For me, it's always a bit of a chore raising that big Main (and my girlfriend HATES it!!), however, with a boat my size or larger, I would guess that it would be just as much of a chore unfurling a 150 Genny (on a masthead rig). Also on the fractional rig, downwind sailing can be a pain without flying the chute...I did like the old days when I could use my genny as a kind of cruising spinnaker.
Want to keep this thread fresh!
I have to say that I am really interested in hearing other's opinions. My first boat was an '82 Hunter 27 with a masthead rig. My "new" boat is a '94 29.5 with a fractional rig (I've owned this boat for 2 seasons). I really love both boats, but there are pros and cons about the rigging...I mean, what is easier for you? Wrestling with the main, or, pulling out the the 150? The absence of aft winches? Or the ease of a smaller jib? Sorry, just bored on a Friday evening...
I have to say that I am really interested in hearing other's opinions. My first boat was an '82 Hunter 27 with a masthead rig. My "new" boat is a '94 29.5 with a fractional rig (I've owned this boat for 2 seasons). I really love both boats, but there are pros and cons about the rigging...I mean, what is easier for you? Wrestling with the main, or, pulling out the the 150? The absence of aft winches? Or the ease of a smaller jib? Sorry, just bored on a Friday evening...
Hunter Performance
In general, the fractional rigs seem to have taken the lead in out and out performance boats and typically, the mast head designs are 'old technology'. Ok, so why has every Hunter from 1988 to the present in the mid size range (27 to 31 feet) received a SLOWER PHRF rating than my 1986 Hunter 28.5? My personal assumption is that Hunter's particular focus is not on performance but on convenience. Therefore we've seen a trend toward smaller roller furling headsails, Large mains with 'dutchman' systems and shorter winged keels, none of which will go to windward as well as a mast head boat with a deep keel. When I first saw the Hunter 30G and even the 30T, I hoped there would be a great turn of speed to match the tall mast, fractional rig and good looks, but that does not seem to have been the case. I'd like to hear from anyone who has a fast fractional rigged boat, Hunter or other make 27-31ft, that carries a rating of 174 or less?
In general, the fractional rigs seem to have taken the lead in out and out performance boats and typically, the mast head designs are 'old technology'. Ok, so why has every Hunter from 1988 to the present in the mid size range (27 to 31 feet) received a SLOWER PHRF rating than my 1986 Hunter 28.5? My personal assumption is that Hunter's particular focus is not on performance but on convenience. Therefore we've seen a trend toward smaller roller furling headsails, Large mains with 'dutchman' systems and shorter winged keels, none of which will go to windward as well as a mast head boat with a deep keel. When I first saw the Hunter 30G and even the 30T, I hoped there would be a great turn of speed to match the tall mast, fractional rig and good looks, but that does not seem to have been the case. I'd like to hear from anyone who has a fast fractional rigged boat, Hunter or other make 27-31ft, that carries a rating of 174 or less?
B&R cruising advantage: pointing, pointing and
pointing. The world of bluewater cruising is very much dominated by traditional thinking. Few if any traditional cruisers appear embarrassed by the fact that they have great trouble sailing to windward under normal Tradewind conditions and instead will tend to boast about the great downwind performance of their vessels, even if they may have to wait for weeks before they can finally try to sail back from where they came, e.g. by tailing a passing disturbance that temporarily reverses the direction of the wind. To me this is like a mountaineer boasting his or her skills in going down the mountain rather than in climbing it..... The fractional sloop rig, as embodied in the B&R, allows us to shift more of the driving force to the main, by far our best pointing sail, rather than to the genoa, thereby reducing the need for large overlapping headsails with clews that cannot be trimmed far enough inboard without having a negative effect on the performance of the mainsail. On our Legend 43, the effect of the B&R rig has been to provide us with a lot of drive when close-hauled in relatively strong winds and waves. Time and again, this has allowed us to complete upwind legs when the rest of the cruising fleet remained bottled up inside the harbor. Have fun! Flying Dutchman
pointing. The world of bluewater cruising is very much dominated by traditional thinking. Few if any traditional cruisers appear embarrassed by the fact that they have great trouble sailing to windward under normal Tradewind conditions and instead will tend to boast about the great downwind performance of their vessels, even if they may have to wait for weeks before they can finally try to sail back from where they came, e.g. by tailing a passing disturbance that temporarily reverses the direction of the wind. To me this is like a mountaineer boasting his or her skills in going down the mountain rather than in climbing it..... The fractional sloop rig, as embodied in the B&R, allows us to shift more of the driving force to the main, by far our best pointing sail, rather than to the genoa, thereby reducing the need for large overlapping headsails with clews that cannot be trimmed far enough inboard without having a negative effect on the performance of the mainsail. On our Legend 43, the effect of the B&R rig has been to provide us with a lot of drive when close-hauled in relatively strong winds and waves. Time and again, this has allowed us to complete upwind legs when the rest of the cruising fleet remained bottled up inside the harbor. Have fun! Flying Dutchman
Just because your Hunters are fractionally rigged
doesn't give them exclusive rights to the B&R rig. Us guys with earlier Hunters have MASTHEAD B&Rs. And we are FAST. Come on,,,give me your best shot!!!
No way I would trade my masthead H34 for another rig but I grew up with masthead rigs. I can see where they would be more work compared to the new crop of Hunters, but as Stu said, the truth is in the numbers. And I still consider a masthead rig to be modern. Put one on a good under body and watch out. This reminds me of a story. (hee,hee) One day a few years ago, my wife and I were tied to the breakwater of our marina after a day sail. It was howling (for the northwest) Twenty knots, sustained. A Tayana 37 went by under full sail. Not a reef in sight. Two old salts (wanna be's) on the dock, nearby said to each other 'now that is my kind of boat! Look at all the sail she can carry in this blow!' I looked at my wife. We grinned at each other and I said 'Let's go'. We double reefed the main, let out half the genoa after shoving off, and passed that Tayana in less than a half mile. They had a full crew and were working to keep us behind them. I still gloat.
doesn't give them exclusive rights to the B&R rig. Us guys with earlier Hunters have MASTHEAD B&Rs. And we are FAST. Come on,,,give me your best shot!!!
No way I would trade my masthead H34 for another rig but I grew up with masthead rigs. I can see where they would be more work compared to the new crop of Hunters, but as Stu said, the truth is in the numbers. And I still consider a masthead rig to be modern. Put one on a good under body and watch out. This reminds me of a story. (hee,hee) One day a few years ago, my wife and I were tied to the breakwater of our marina after a day sail. It was howling (for the northwest) Twenty knots, sustained. A Tayana 37 went by under full sail. Not a reef in sight. Two old salts (wanna be's) on the dock, nearby said to each other 'now that is my kind of boat! Look at all the sail she can carry in this blow!' I looked at my wife. We grinned at each other and I said 'Let's go'. We double reefed the main, let out half the genoa after shoving off, and passed that Tayana in less than a half mile. They had a full crew and were working to keep us behind them. I still gloat.
Tell us more about "masthead B&R" rigs,
Fred. I was unable to find any references to that. Or were you just pulling my leg? At any rate, I was not trying to imply that fractional rigs would be faster on all points of sail than masthead rigs. On the contrary. For running downwind, the masthead rig plus a big genoa is hard to beat. No, as my post said: "pointing, pointing and pointing" is the true story here. Have fun! Flying Dutchman
Fred. I was unable to find any references to that. Or were you just pulling my leg? At any rate, I was not trying to imply that fractional rigs would be faster on all points of sail than masthead rigs. On the contrary. For running downwind, the masthead rig plus a big genoa is hard to beat. No, as my post said: "pointing, pointing and pointing" is the true story here. Have fun! Flying Dutchman
No leg pulling here
Here is a picture of a masthead rigged B&R Hunter. It is hull number HUN38524H899.
Here is a picture of a masthead rigged B&R Hunter. It is hull number HUN38524H899.
Attachments
Thanks, Larry, one is never too old
to learn something new!! Perhaps it would be good to tell Hunter Marine about it as well. Just in the last summer issue of Knotline they gave the following response to someone who wanted to know what a B&R rig was (see attached image). Flying Dutchman Hmmm, Phil appears not to be fond of captured text images; at least it does not show correctly on my browser right now. So, here is the actual text of Knotline's "Ask an Expert" page: (in response to a question by Tracy from Australia) "Thank you for the nice letter! The B&R rig is named after Lars Bergstrom and Sven Ridder, the gentlemen who designed and invented the rig. This fractional rig has long been a valuable part of Hunter's design philosophy. For more detailed information on fractional rigs, take a look at page 4."
to learn something new!! Perhaps it would be good to tell Hunter Marine about it as well. Just in the last summer issue of Knotline they gave the following response to someone who wanted to know what a B&R rig was (see attached image). Flying Dutchman Hmmm, Phil appears not to be fond of captured text images; at least it does not show correctly on my browser right now. So, here is the actual text of Knotline's "Ask an Expert" page: (in response to a question by Tracy from Australia) "Thank you for the nice letter! The B&R rig is named after Lars Bergstrom and Sven Ridder, the gentlemen who designed and invented the rig. This fractional rig has long been a valuable part of Hunter's design philosophy. For more detailed information on fractional rigs, take a look at page 4."
Henk, there is a picture of my masthead on my
web site. Also the spreaders can be seen on that same film strip. (The third one) And the entire mast is shown during stepping.
web site. Also the spreaders can be seen on that same film strip. (The third one) And the entire mast is shown during stepping.
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