fractional rig vs mast head

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Sep 11, 2007
70
PSC FLICKA seattle wa
OK old salts. I am upgrading to a hunter 45CC... would someone express thier views about hunters and also pros/cons between both rigs. My understanding is since the fractional rig has a small jib thier is no need for a back stay.. Plan on cruising san juan islands and CA coast. perhaps Hawaii.. thanks Mike
 
Sep 11, 2007
70
PSC FLICKA seattle wa
my research

Fractional Rig Offers Advantages Over Masthead Rig In my sailing experience I have learned to prefer a fractional rig to a masthead version, whether cruising, racing or daysailing. Here are some of the reasons why I believe that more people should be sailing boats with fractional rigs: Fractional headsails are smaller and easier to use. A large 140-150% masthead genoa is a terrible sail for a cruiser. It is a pain to tack, requires a lot more winch grinding, reduces forward visibility, and takes either larger winches or more muscle to trim. As the wind picks up it soon overpowers the boat, requiring either a sail change or partial furling of the sail. A large genoa has an inefficient shape when partially furled (reefed). The larger the sail, the more it has to be reefed in a breeze, and the worse the shape becomes. To make matters worse, as you reef the genoa, you end up raising the center of effort of the sail, giving excess healing moment for the amount of sail actually exposed to the wind. Very inefficient! On the other hand, the fractional headsail is smaller to begin with and, as the breeze picks up, the mainsail can be reefed, an easier operation which results in a better sail shape. When it is necessary to reef the fractional genoa, it can be rolled up less which means shape is still decent. Fractional rigs require fewer sails: since the power of the frac rig is in the main, the headsails are smaller and you don't need as many for racing. If you end up with the wrong headsail up on a frac rig, it is not as detrimental as it is on a masthead rig. The total number of sails on a fractional-rigged boat is usually less than on a masthead. Fractional spinnakers are smaller and easier to handle: the biggest beast on most boats - the one that is hardest to handle - is the spinnaker. On a frac rig, the sail is smaller and the pole is shorter, and the spinnaker therefore is easier to set, douse and gybe. If it gets out of control, which eventually happens to all of us, it is less of a handful. A frac rig boat can sail on mainsail alone: there are times when one would prefer to sail with one sail up, for a variety of reasons. On a masthead rig boat, sailing under main alone is so inefficient as to be almost worthless, especially upwind. So what most masthead-ers do is sail with jib alone, especially when it is blowing. It drives me crazy to see this: without the wind pressure on the mainsail, the mast is not steadied and all the load on the spar is strictly in compression. If the mast gets out of column (bends too much) while you are plowing through waves you can end up with the rig in your lap. Not much fun! The frac rig, on the other hand, is easily sailed under main alone. In addition, the masthead rig becomes unbalanced when you sail with only one sail up, as you will develop too much weather or lee helm as the sail area is not centered over the keel. On the frac rig the mast is far enough forward so as to provide better balance of sail area over keel, for an easier helm. If you do use the jib alone on a frac rig it is small and easily handled and the pull on the mast is not strictly in compression, so it is safer. The frac rig spar is farther forward in the boat, meaning that its' position relative to the logical location of the forward main cabin bulkhead is better, with the result that it is less intrusive in the cabin. The frac rig spar is taller and reaches cleaner air higher off the water. It also gives a more nicely proportioned rig for aesthetic reasons. The frac rig mast is more easily bent, producing more sail shape control. The loads on the frac rig spar are generally less, as the compression load generated by the headsails is less. The backstay on a masthead race boat is often tensioned to the point that it puts terrific loads on the whole rig, causing flexing of the boat and associated problems. The frac rig backstay is never tightened to the same high loads, which is easier on the structure. I think frac rigs are more fun to sail. The mainsail is more fun to trim, you have more shape control, yet the headsails are a lot easier to use. If something goes wrong on a frac rig it is usually easier to control. If you are caught in a blow, or your furler jams, or your headsail starts to go over the side, the smaller headsail on a frac rig causes less of a fire drill than the larger masthead genoa will cause. The most hazardous place to be on a boat when trouble hits is up on the bow, especially when short or single-handed. So any reduction in the frequency or magnitude of a problem up forward is a good thing. On the other hand, the mainsail is more centered over the boat, and a problem with it is usually easier to get under control. So why are so many cruising boat built today with masthead rigs? For one reason they are simple and cheap. The mast is usually just a straight un-tapered extrusion. For another reason, builders seem to be reluctant to change, a problem in our industry that has stifled growth and innovation. The masthead rig is largely an anachronism left over from days when the racing rules gave favored treatment to boats with masthead rigs. This is no longer the case, but cruising boat design was adversely influenced for years by handicap rules, even though most boats never see the starting line. Fortunately, the situation is starting to change. I applaud Hunter for the use of the frac rig on their boats, and from much personal use i can say that their rigs are just plain easier and better for cruising. J/boats also uses mostly frac rigs, and they are known for making boats where sailing performance (speed, ease of use, efficiency and fun) is paramount. The Beneteau First series boats, also performance oriented, are frac rigs. If more people would try the frac rig they would find that it is indeed a step forward in convenience, performance and safety.
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,188
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Gee Mike....

I thought you were asking for pros and cons from the rest of us. Let's see, in 3 minutes you researched, in depth, the advantages of a fractional rig then composed a lenghty response to your own question. So do you really want both sides of the issue? I doubt it .... and I certainly wouldn't waste any time with a serious response. In reality your question was rhetorical and your comments were taken right from the Hunter broker's sales presentation.
 
Jan 15, 2007
226
Tartan 34C Beacon, NY
Not only is it from a salesmen's script

Not only is it from a salesmen's script but in large part its misleading at best and flat out wrong otherwise. All the best, Robert Gainer
 
Nov 27, 2005
163
- - West Des Moines, Iowa
What a ridiculous post

Like Joe said. You ask a questions on the pro's and cons of Fractional rig's vs. masthead and then two minutes later you wax poetically on the virtues of frac head boats. what a twit like thing to do ! The first point. Your "understanding" that since a fractional rig has a small jib thier is no need for a back stay is not correct. The reason a boat doesn't need backstay's have to do with the way the mast, spreaders and shrouds are set up, not the size of the headsail. If you notice the spreaders on backstayless mast are almost always swept way back. So much so that if you sail lower than 130 deg and let your mainsail out appropriately your mainsail will be rubbing right up against the aft points of those spreaders Yes frac rig boats have some advantages but they are not all wine and roses and the Hunter B & R IMHO rig is not the best of the frac rig set ups. I have to LAUGH OUT LOUD at Hunter though. They make a huge deal about the B & R rig and backstayless masts and being able to gain a much bigger roach area in the mainsail, but then, by their estimate about 80-90% of all hunters these days are going out of the factory with a roller furling main ! All those boats LOSE that advantage. What a Farce ! You talk about performance and a "typical" frac rig will help a sailor dial in the headstay tension which can flatten the mainsail and tighten the headsail which should allow for the boat to point higher (and you are incorrect to say that you can't do this on a mast head rig, they often do it and it works). The second ridiculous point you were trying to make is being able to do this on a Hunter. Being a "backstayless" B&R rig I have YET to see any Hunter of this type with a backstay adjuster. Sure I'm sure a club racer could kluge something and I am sure it has been done, but from what I see its rare and if you are going to the hassle of running backstay's why not just have a backstay. One more point If you've ever used them having to use running backstays is a pain in the behind. You talk about cruising on the boat and sailing to Hawaii. Well you better make sure you put lots a patches in that mainsail. That can be lot of downwind sailing and your mainsail will be right up against the spreaders and they'll be burrowing a hole in your mainsail. Also better get a spinakker, because it will be useless to get any advantage out of that small jib . If you had . A very typical and usefull cruising arrangement for masthead rigs is to pole out that bigger Genny for sailing downwind, it works very well. (Just talk to REAL cruisers and not club racers or marketing brochures). Another questionable point you make is that a large genoa is a terrible sail for a cruiser. (???) and that it is a pain to tack, etc etc. If you were a club "around the can's" racer or regularly having to short tack up a channel I might agree with you. But most cruisers don't have to tack that often. Often times you'll be on a tack for hours (if not days) and that big headsail is a big advantage. Thats why you are starting to see more and more crusiers going to Code 0 type sails. You also talk about the frac rig's being able to not have to roller reef the jib and only flatten the mainsail, which is true, but only going upwind and typically only up until 20 kts. There is still a point where you have to reef the main. Whether you have a reef hook or single/double line mainsail reefing you will still have to reef that main and being a bigger mainsail that a frac rig might bring you does not make that an easier task Lastly (and very importantly) most masthead rigs are built more robustly than tapered frac rig's that (not all) . You talk about cruising, if you lose a stay or shroud on a deck stepped mast head boat many times I have heard of the skipper saving the mast and recovering. Lose a shround on a B&R rig and she's going down. There will be nothing you can do. Racers don't care - Cruiser do. Now don't think that I think frac rigs are terrible, they are not. In fact I kind of like them for some purposes but your post and then rebuttal (to yourself) was more lopsided that an 80 year old New Orleans "Ho" Go buy a Hunter if you want. Sounds like you drank the kool aid
 
Jun 7, 2007
875
Pearson- 323- Mobile,Al
Wow I didn't Know it was so bad!!!!

Having owned three boats with fractional rigs and having owned a masthead rig for the last 4 years....I didn't realise what I'd lost. Somehow I've been very happy with my masthead rig.... Maybe it is because I have two headsails for my roller furler!!!! DUH... Most of the time I use the 160 genny but if things look windy I use the 110 headsail. Hanking on a tradition sail or sliding on a roller furling sail take about the same amount of effort. Just because it's a roller doesn't mean that you can't change sails!!!! I have at times missed not being able to sail on the main alone very well. But going downwind we have left the mainsail on the boom and just unrolled the 160. With the asymetrical flying alongside the genny we move down wind very nicely. In short I've never felt disadvantaged with my masthead rig!!!!
 
Dec 3, 2003
2,101
Hunter Legend 37 Portsmouth, RI
Mike, What's Difference Does it Make?

Since you are upgrading to a 45CC then they only come with a masthead rig. Am I correct? :)
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
HOGWASH ..... only valid if one is constrained by

extreme short time 'round the bouys' racing or is limited to Windward-Leeward cruising routes !!!!!!! What an arrogant misguided unknowledgeable techno-centric bloviating bunch of BS. After reading the original posting I now clearly know the reasons why Hillary Clinton will be elected. Masthead Rig Offers Advantages Over Fractional Rig In my sailing experience I have learned to prefer a Masthead rig to a fractional version, whether cruising, racing or daysailing. Here are some of the reasons why I believe that more people should be sailing boats with MASTHEAD rigs: Masthead mainsails are smaller and easier to use. A large mainsail on a fractional is a terrible sail for a cruiser. It is a pain to constantly adjust for shape, requires a lot more winch grinding, requires stonger and more complex rigging and mast sections, and takes either larger winches or more muscle to trim --- the upper terminals of backstay-forestay are unbalanced with respect to compressioal forces thus requiring complex onthefly adjustment requirement to keep the mast in column and p revent buckling failure, plus requires running backstays and multiple spreaders to avoid untowards vibrational harmonics, etc. . As the wind picks up it soon overpowers the boat, requiring reefing of the sail. A large mainsail has an inefficient aerodynamic shape especially when partially furled (reefed) i nside the mast ... as most kroozers are now favoring in-mast reefing. It has been correctly acknowledged for many many years that the mast section causes drag/and leading edge votices/turbulance to a mainsail ... thus the smaller the mainsail the less the adverse effect. A fractional requires a larger mast and a larger mast is subject to turbulence vortices that lessens the smoth flow of air, thus decreasing t he aero efficiecy of the sail and how it 'aerodynamically 'bootstraps' the headsails. The larger the mainsail, the more it has to be reefed in a breeze, and the worse the shape becomes, especially on a fractional rig where the most flexible section of the mast is typically near the top (re; flattening a mainsail by bending the mast). To make matters worse, as you reef the MAINSAIL, you end up moving forward the center of effort of the sail, giving excess healing moment for the amount of sail actually exposed to the wind. Very inefficient! On the other hand, the mastheaded mainsail is smaller to begin with and, as the breeze picks up, the headsail can be reefed/changed, an easier operation which results in a better sail shape. When it is necessary to reef the mainsail can be entirely reefed/dropped and the boat can be sailed with no extreme helm while sailed solely on the Headsail. Fractional rigs however require MORE sails: since the power of the frac rig is in the main, the headsails are smaller and you don't need as many for racing but you NEED large Gennakers/Spinnakers when deep reaching at speed as the smalller jibs on a frac. are too small to be efficient on less than a close reach. Cruisers generally dont use spinnaker poles and simply tack an assymetrical spinnaker to the center line, use chute scoops, etc. and dont really need to go to all the bother required on a frac boat because they usually carry spinnakers of nearly twice the effective sail area. If you end up with the wrong mainsail shape or reefed susrface area up on a MastHead rig, it is not as detrimental as it is on a frac rig. The total number of sails on a mastheaded-rigged boat is usually less than on a fractional because sometimes you need to go DOWN wind; otherwise youll be constrained to just a few sailing angles (windward-leeward racing only) when there are confused/dangerous sea states.. Masthaead spinnakers are larger and just as easy to handle: the biggest beast on most boats - the one that is hardest to handle - is the spinnaker. On a Frac rig if anything untowards on a frac rig happens to a mainsail .... well you simply cant sail on just a jib on a frac. A Masthead rig boat can sail on genoal alone: there are times when one would prefer to sail with one sail up, for a variety of reasons. On a frac rig boat, sailing under jib/';genoa alone is so inefficient as to be almost worthless, especially upwind OR down. So what most frac-ers do is sail with main alone, especially when it is blowing. It drives me crazy to see this: The mast of a fract is also principally in compression but MUST be additionally supported and complexly rigged to offset the different moments due to connection '[offset' of the hounds versus the backstay, etc. This offset of applied stress moments at the topmost of the mast induce BUCKLING which is the PRIME cause of mast structre failure. If compression is held strictly 'axial' or is so constrained such as in a mast headed rig the potential for BUCKLING FAILURE is much lessened. If the mast gets out of column (bends too much) while you are plowing through waves you can end up with the rig in your lap. Not much fun! The MASTHEAD rig, on the other hand, is easily sailed under genoa alone. In addition, the fractional rig becomes unbalanced when you sail with only one sail up, as you will develop too much weather or lee helm as the sail area is not centered over the keel .... and you have no idea how to re-shape the sail to affect draft locations - worse, most high end fractional boats use ultra modern laminated sails that are simply 'not stretchable' to accomplish draft/shape relocation and therefore you need a LARGE inventory of sails. Conversely Mastheaded boats predominently use woven dacron sail which are 'edge stretchable' and therefore can dynamically better SHAPE the sails on the fly to readajust for the dynamics of sailing on a single sail up. On the MASTHEAD rig the mast is far enough aaft so as to provide better balance of sail area over keel, for an easier helm. The masthead rig spar is farther aft in the boat, meaning that its' position relative to the logical location of the forward main cabin bulkhead is better, with the result that it is less intrusive in the cabin, plus the mass of the mast is better carried by the wider hull sections instead of a narrow bowwed frac which tends to plunge and hobbyhorse if the bow is too heavily loaded. The Mathead rig mast is less easily bent, producing more sail shape stability. .... the frac rig needing runners, jumpers, babystays, etc. to keep the mast in column and without adverse harmonics developint. The loads on the Masthead g spar are generally less, as the compression load generated by the sails is usually matched to the load bearing ability of the usually sstiffer spar. The backstay on a masthead race boat is often tensioned to the point that it puts terrific loads on the whole rig, causing flexing of the boat and associated problems --- and usually results in expensive and more frequent rigging replacments due to fatigue of the metallic components. The MaSThead rig backstay is never tightened to the same high loads, which is easier on the structure, as for example the frac rig when properly tensioned for mast rake/bend, etc. for a full beat may be experiencing backstay tensions of 30% of the ultimate tensile strength of the rigging and base components .... and that allows stress levels to increase well above the "endurance limit of fatigue" and most prudent designers/engineers would normally avoid. The result is that the fractional rig require total rigging replacment more often than a masthead. I think Masthead rigs are more easy to sail. The genoa is more fun to (correctly trim, you have more shape control, yet the mainsail are a lot easier to use because its smaller. If something goes wrong on a masthead rig it is usually easier to control. If you are caught in a blow, or your furler jams, or your boom breaks &^ starts to go over the side, the smaller mainsail on a masthead rig causes less of a fire drill than the larger fractional mainsail will cause ... as usually when a mmainsail goes', so does the ENTIRE rig. So why are so many cruising boat built today with masthead rigs? For one reason they are simple and cheap, dont require a large and complex crew. .....AND that most long distance cruising is usually off wind ie.:" a reach. The mast is usually just a straight un-tapered extrusion .... so that there is less need for constant adjustment to keep the mast from breaking . For another reason, builders seem to be reluctant to change, a problem in our industry that has stifled growth and innovation ... thats right all the builders and designers from the BIG BANG until the advent of Wednesday night beer can racing on a strictly windward-leeward course were just simply stupid. The masthead rig is largely an anachronism left over from days when the racing rules gave favored treatment to boats with masthead rigs. soooo I guess if the racing rules changed so that mast would be favored laying flat across the deck, you'd be one the first to advocate that too . Most design of boats since Jonah have been influenced adverssely by the rules .... AS RULE BEATERS ... just as the grotesque fractional rigs are today. This still continues to be the case, but very sadly cruising boat design was adversely influenced for years by handicap rules, even though most crusing boats never WANT to see the starting line. VERY SADLY, the situation is starting to change. I think Hunter is stupid for the use of the B&R & frac rig on their boats, and from much personal use i can say that their rigs are designed for STUPID and unknowledgeable sailor who just want moveable waterfront property and be able to impress their friends with a mechanism of elegant dockside entertaining. Tayana, Valiant, Halberg-Rassey, Baba, Tashiba, Sweden, Pacific SeaCraft, Hinckley, Morris, Hylas, etc. etc. etc. etc. also uses mostly masthead rigs, and they are known for making boats where sailing SAFETY and sea kindliness (speed, ease of use, efficiency and fun) is paramount. The Beneteau Oceanis series boats, also long distance cruising oriented, are mastheadrigs. If more people would avoid silly leeward-windward racing on short courses that never arrive at any destination and frac rigs they would find that it is indeed a step forward in convenience, performance, longer lasting, more seakindly, able to carry more stores, able to sail on the designed waterline when loaded, able to carry a load. less prone to fatigue failure, stonger build .... fracs. that race typically are built at only 3:1 factor of safety while 'real cruisers capable of ocean crossings' are typically built at 5:1 or 6:1 factor of safety .... inotherwords TWICE as strong and built to do the job intended and not falsly marketed nor touted by brazen bravado .... my father is bigger than your father, our high school quarterbacks are smarter than your highschool. my car is shinier than your car. I have both a frac which I race (short legged leeward-windward) and a long distance cruiser (mast headed cutter .... oh my double horrors according to the original post) passagemaker .... Id be a blathering fool to tout that one is better in the design venue of the other. From the apparently very biased self promoting content and underlying 'attitude' of the original post I can nothing less than assume that the original poster seems to have the same 'teeney-weeney' problem that most cigarette boat drivers have.
 
Oct 26, 2005
116
Oday 28 Detroit/Grosse Pointe Park (O'Day 192, O'Day 28)
Uh, guys??

The title of his second post is "my research", then the rest of the post is a copy & paste from here: http://www.rcryachts.com/fractional.htm I think serenity's asking for your opinions and maybe a counterpoint to the article he found. Serenity - it would've been clearer if you had given attribution to the article you copied. My personal opinion - there's advantages to each; choose based on your sailing style. Kevin
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Maybe he is just yanking your chain!

He certainly has gotten a lot of attention for what ever purpose I have no idea.
 
Sep 25, 2008
7,409
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
fractional rig myth

Guess we all better get rid of those lousy fractional rigged boats as they are all worthless compared with the traditional type - who's going to tell the America's Cup boats they got it all wrong with the millions in dollars of research?
 
Jun 7, 2007
875
Pearson- 323- Mobile,Al
Shorter Mast for Same Sail area!!!

With Mast height being a major constraint in many areas this is something to consider. But my personal experience had been about 6 of one and a half dozen of the other. With a 45' boat it is unlikely that he can go under a 50' bridge with either rig. My little 32' boat's mast sticks up 45'. But one of the reasons I considered a ketch was to have more sail area with shorter masts. Also this could result in smaller sails.
 
D

Don

Fractional VS B+R Rigs

I am not an expert however I have a fractional rig on a 35.5 with a backstay and I like it for many of the reasons mentioned. As for safety I think that is overplayed - when the big main gets overpowered it is an issue. The major point I think needs to be addressed is a B+R rig versus a fractional rig with backstays. The spreaders on the 35.5 are swept back but not nearly to the degree of the B+R rig. When working downwind the true wind angle of about 120 seems to be the most efficient. With a B+R rig the spreaders are even more swept back and that reduces the effectiveness of the main downwind - and the main is the driver on the boat. The B+R rig with no backstays allows for a huge roach on the main which increases sail area aloft. A great number of the new Hunters with the B+R rig are sold with furling mains, no battens and no extra roach in the sail - so it kind of defeats the purpose of the B+R rig. The last point I would like to make is that the type of cruising (Hawaii) would involve a lot of downwind sailing and the B+R rig may not be the best fit. In closing, I like fractional rigs but I am not sure I like the B+R rig.
 
R

Rick9619

What I want for Christmas

What I want for christmas is a... 38-40 foot cruiser/racer, 200 flush freshwater head, white with blue canvas, a compass in the binnacle, and a fractional rig! The reason is because everytime I go out with my friends to enjoy a nice daysail ,on their masthead rig boats that are similar to mine, I hit my shoulder, neck, and nugget, on the backstay running right through the teeny cockpit. Im 6'2.. I just like the roomy cockpit on midsized frac rigs. Which is better is up to the owner. C+...C+ You'll shoot your eye out kid!
 
S

Scott

That was fun!

This post was the most fun in this forum in a long time! Rich, your conclusion was priceless. While I admit that the 150 genny on my masthead rigged Starwind is difficult to deal with on a busy day day on Lake Hopatcong (we rarely have tacks that are longer than 10 minutes going upwind - often less than 5 minutes), a lot depends on the eye of the beholder. I couldn't own a boat that I don't admire. I simply admire the lines of a masthead rig far more than a fractional rig. For that reason (almost alone) I could never own a Hunter over a Sabre, Tartan or Bene Oceanis.
 

Rick D

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Jun 14, 2008
7,184
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
Stupid Hunter Owner

...who has fractional rigged boat... refuses to take the bait ;D
 
Dec 25, 2000
5,931
Hunter Passage 42 Shelter Bay, WA
Hi Mike, our first boat, an H28, was a ...

fractional rig and had a back stay. It all depends upon the design. Our boat is mast head rigged with a 150 genoa. Lots of power! It also has a back stay and is sort of a B&R rig. I say sort of because of the swept back spreaders. She is a fast boat, easy to solo and very comfortable. Even though our boats are very similar maybe Hunter can explain why the 45CC is fractional and the P42 is head rigged. Have you been sailing in the San Juan Islands before? Wonderful places to go. Pelican Beach on the NE corner of Cypress is one of my favorites. Also, Spencer Spit, James Island and Matia. Many others of course. Terry
 
A

Anon.

Look before you leap

Our poster's research came from the following dealer site: http://www.rcryachts.com/fractional.htm Perhaps he was just posting information to start the conversation. Unfortunately, you all just jumped to conclusions. Yes, it would have been better to clearly state the source, but he said it was his research, not his strongly held opinion.
 
Nov 27, 2005
163
- - West Des Moines, Iowa
Interesting that his post started out by saying

"In my sailing experience" One would think Mike from Serenity 4u2 was talking. Then he lists all that biased stuff but doesn't acknowledge its from a HUNTER DEALERS WEBSITE. Whats even funnier is that the website states all those things and saying "In my sailing experience" but its not signed at the bottom. LOL. We don't even know the authors "sailing experience" For all we know the only time he/she was out cruising below 30 degree's parallel was when he/she chartered a Moorings boat for a week in the BVI's *o Its like Mike/Serenity 4u2 is trying to justify his decision to purchase that Hunter 45CC he was talking about purchasing
 
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