Any and all suggestions. I have a 1997 Hunter 23.5. I have been trying to decide to install a Harken Traveler on the deck approximately four inches forward of the present U bolt mainsheet position. I intend to bolt a five foot track in that position an use a Harken 210 car. Have you or anyone had any experience with a traveler on a Hunter 23.5. I hope that this addition will give a little less weather helm in 15 to 20 knot winds and provide better power from the reefed Main. Thanks for any comments: Dirtyjim@Charter.net
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I have been toying with that idea as well. I was thinking of putting it on a peice of teak or a bracket made to go on either side of where the main sheet attaches now. That way it would not go across anywhere that folks might want to sit. I was not sure though if it would be long enough to to make enough difference to be worthwhile. Could always have cushions made that break right where the traveler would be. Let us know how it turns out. I am waiting for Dave to come up with a stainless steel arch we can add and put the traveler up there that would be the way to go. He says it cannot be done but I think he just needs a bit more shine to get the brain cells functioning at there peak to figure out how.
I have been toying with that idea as well. I was thinking of putting it on a peice of teak or a bracket made to go on either side of where the main sheet attaches now. That way it would not go across anywhere that folks might want to sit. I was not sure though if it would be long enough to to make enough difference to be worthwhile. Could always have cushions made that break right where the traveler would be. Let us know how it turns out. I am waiting for Dave to come up with a stainless steel arch we can add and put the traveler up there that would be the way to go. He says it cannot be done but I think he just needs a bit more shine to get the brain cells functioning at there peak to figure out how.
Just a suggestion.
Jim: Just a suggestion. Have you checked with Garhauer for this setup. They have nice equipment at very reasonable prices. www.garhauermarine.com
Jim: Just a suggestion. Have you checked with Garhauer for this setup. They have nice equipment at very reasonable prices. www.garhauermarine.com
I don't see how it would help.
Our H235 already has mid boom sheeting and a boom vang. I don't understand what avantage you will gain from having a traveler, but I'm willing to learn. My experience has been that you need a good boom vang or a traveller, but not necessarily both. Am I wrong? Frank
Our H235 already has mid boom sheeting and a boom vang. I don't understand what avantage you will gain from having a traveler, but I'm willing to learn. My experience has been that you need a good boom vang or a traveller, but not necessarily both. Am I wrong? Frank
Traveler makes a HUGE difference
The stock H23 has a traveler but the car is held in position with spring-loaded stoppers, so it wasn't easily adjustable. Last winter I took off the stoppers and replaced them with sheaves and cleats at each end. I bought all the gear from Schaefer because that's who made the stock track and car, which I kept. The traveler enables me to fine-tune the angle of attack of the mainsail without affecting its twist. Mainsail twist is critical in gusty air. Without the traveler I was either reefing early or playing the mainsheet, both of which are drastic adjustments. Now I ease the traveler a bit in the puffs and accelerate instead of heeling. It's a LOT more enjoyable. Peter H23 "Raven"
The stock H23 has a traveler but the car is held in position with spring-loaded stoppers, so it wasn't easily adjustable. Last winter I took off the stoppers and replaced them with sheaves and cleats at each end. I bought all the gear from Schaefer because that's who made the stock track and car, which I kept. The traveler enables me to fine-tune the angle of attack of the mainsail without affecting its twist. Mainsail twist is critical in gusty air. Without the traveler I was either reefing early or playing the mainsheet, both of which are drastic adjustments. Now I ease the traveler a bit in the puffs and accelerate instead of heeling. It's a LOT more enjoyable. Peter H23 "Raven"
A question for Peter
Peter: Couldn't you reduce twist with the vang and adjust the boom angle with the sheet? Why is the traveler needed to do this? Frank
Peter: Couldn't you reduce twist with the vang and adjust the boom angle with the sheet? Why is the traveler needed to do this? Frank
Traveler
If installing, not on the floor. Put it on the seat or the area just before going down below into the cabin. You will need to explore if it is solid underneath the cabin cieling; otherwise you will need to advise and I will go the next step. IF solid between the deck and ceiling liner, then use washers to help spread the load out. Be sure to caulk well dave
If installing, not on the floor. Put it on the seat or the area just before going down below into the cabin. You will need to explore if it is solid underneath the cabin cieling; otherwise you will need to advise and I will go the next step. IF solid between the deck and ceiling liner, then use washers to help spread the load out. Be sure to caulk well dave
Reply to Crazy Dave
Thanks for you insight and you comment. My sailing history was as a one design Thistle Sailor in my more youthful years. I agree that the step seems tobe very strong and if I can find a practical way to insert some fairly large aluminum backing plates, I will probably proceed with the project. For all of you who may be interested I will post some pictures as the project progresses. Thanks again, DirtyJim
Thanks for you insight and you comment. My sailing history was as a one design Thistle Sailor in my more youthful years. I agree that the step seems tobe very strong and if I can find a practical way to insert some fairly large aluminum backing plates, I will probably proceed with the project. For all of you who may be interested I will post some pictures as the project progresses. Thanks again, DirtyJim
Dirty Jim
Large washers are only needed not large metal plates. When you drill through and if you notice any void, stop and then I will tell you an alternate way for securing the boltss. Oh heck let me describe. Lets say you do drill and find that there is a void between the deck and ceiling liner. Not a problem. Find stainless steel tubing that is small enough but just a tad bigger than the bolt to go through. You will then enlargen the bolt hole that you drilled inside on the cieling liner just large enough for the tubing to go through. Place tubing and measure distance so the piece you cut off will nestle up to the deck liner and Protrude 1/8th inch below cieling liner. Put bolt through and then using a washer that is for that specific bolt, it will rest against the tube and then tight down with the nut. I hope this answers your question. I am a nut too but I do squish and can squeal like a pig. Crazy Dave Condon
Large washers are only needed not large metal plates. When you drill through and if you notice any void, stop and then I will tell you an alternate way for securing the boltss. Oh heck let me describe. Lets say you do drill and find that there is a void between the deck and ceiling liner. Not a problem. Find stainless steel tubing that is small enough but just a tad bigger than the bolt to go through. You will then enlargen the bolt hole that you drilled inside on the cieling liner just large enough for the tubing to go through. Place tubing and measure distance so the piece you cut off will nestle up to the deck liner and Protrude 1/8th inch below cieling liner. Put bolt through and then using a washer that is for that specific bolt, it will rest against the tube and then tight down with the nut. I hope this answers your question. I am a nut too but I do squish and can squeal like a pig. Crazy Dave Condon
Response to Frank re vang
The mainsheet tackle on the H23 is much more powerful than the vang. When sailing close hauled, the downward pull from the mainsheet is so strong that the vang goes slack. At that point the leech is also tight. Easing the sheet in the puffs opens the leech and changes angle of attack simultaneously. The boat goes from overpowered to upright in a heartbeat. It takes a lot of finesse on the mainsheet to keep the boat in the groove and that's hard to do with a lot of load in the mainsheet tackle. For me, the easiest solution was improving the traveler. Here's the added advantage. On really windy days, I haul the traveler far up to windward and then ease the mainsheet to put the boom back near the centerline where it belongs. This takes a lot of the load out of the mainsheet tackle but maintains the proper angle of attack. In a gust, the boom rises slightly, the leech opens, the top of the mainsail twists off and spills excess air off the top of the sail while the lower half is still working the way it should. It looks odd, but I can sail upwind with a full main when everyone else has reefed. I've raced the boat singlehanded using this technique and it works. Peter H23 "Raven"
The mainsheet tackle on the H23 is much more powerful than the vang. When sailing close hauled, the downward pull from the mainsheet is so strong that the vang goes slack. At that point the leech is also tight. Easing the sheet in the puffs opens the leech and changes angle of attack simultaneously. The boat goes from overpowered to upright in a heartbeat. It takes a lot of finesse on the mainsheet to keep the boat in the groove and that's hard to do with a lot of load in the mainsheet tackle. For me, the easiest solution was improving the traveler. Here's the added advantage. On really windy days, I haul the traveler far up to windward and then ease the mainsheet to put the boom back near the centerline where it belongs. This takes a lot of the load out of the mainsheet tackle but maintains the proper angle of attack. In a gust, the boom rises slightly, the leech opens, the top of the mainsail twists off and spills excess air off the top of the sail while the lower half is still working the way it should. It looks odd, but I can sail upwind with a full main when everyone else has reefed. I've raced the boat singlehanded using this technique and it works. Peter H23 "Raven"
Thanks Peter!
Thanks for the explaination. My 23.5 is the first boat I have had with a vang so I am still learning a lot.
Thanks for the explaination. My 23.5 is the first boat I have had with a vang so I am still learning a lot.
Hang in there Frank...it only gets better!
I've been sailing for 22 years but if you had asked me seven years ago what a vang was, you would have gotten a blank stare. That's one of the things I love about sailing, there's always something new to learn. There are several good references out there when you're ready to start experimenting with sail trim. Don Guilette's Guide to Sail Trim (available from HOW) is a good place to start. A better reference for fractional rigs and swept-back spreaders (most Hunters) is Stuart Walker's A Manual of Sail Trim, available at West Marine for about $22. Just the thing for those long winter evenings. Have fun! Peter H23 "Raven"
I've been sailing for 22 years but if you had asked me seven years ago what a vang was, you would have gotten a blank stare. That's one of the things I love about sailing, there's always something new to learn. There are several good references out there when you're ready to start experimenting with sail trim. Don Guilette's Guide to Sail Trim (available from HOW) is a good place to start. A better reference for fractional rigs and swept-back spreaders (most Hunters) is Stuart Walker's A Manual of Sail Trim, available at West Marine for about $22. Just the thing for those long winter evenings. Have fun! Peter H23 "Raven"
For Crazy Dave - The next Step Traveler H235
Dave: I have measured the deck thickness on the step and have found that the Solid portion of the step just before entering the cabin is 5/8" thick, followed by a 5/8" void with some foam behind the inter-liner of the cabin. Do you think that One inch washers placed every four inches across a five foot spand on the step would be enough backing for the track? I have found hole plugs one inch in diameter which would allow for drilling one inch holes in the cabin liner and placing the washers directly against the 5/8" solid portion of the step. The one inch plugs would then pop in the one inch hole (friction fit) in the liner and present a finished appearance. Hope that my rambling is understandable. I have purchased a Harken 247 Windward Sheeting Car and plan to use the 1/2 inch low profile track with #10 FH bolts. Dirty JIM PS Have not gotten the courage to drill any holes yet!
Dave: I have measured the deck thickness on the step and have found that the Solid portion of the step just before entering the cabin is 5/8" thick, followed by a 5/8" void with some foam behind the inter-liner of the cabin. Do you think that One inch washers placed every four inches across a five foot spand on the step would be enough backing for the track? I have found hole plugs one inch in diameter which would allow for drilling one inch holes in the cabin liner and placing the washers directly against the 5/8" solid portion of the step. The one inch plugs would then pop in the one inch hole (friction fit) in the liner and present a finished appearance. Hope that my rambling is understandable. I have purchased a Harken 247 Windward Sheeting Car and plan to use the 1/2 inch low profile track with #10 FH bolts. Dirty JIM PS Have not gotten the courage to drill any holes yet!
For Peter
Sounds like your 23 had the same pins my 22 has on it. I've thougt about ways to turn my traveler into one like Harken sells with cam cleats instead of the pins; the pins are a pain to move. Do you have a picture of what you've done to yours? I, like you, use the traveler often in gusty conditions here in Jax, but those darned pins make it tough! thanks David Sea Monkeys
Sounds like your 23 had the same pins my 22 has on it. I've thougt about ways to turn my traveler into one like Harken sells with cam cleats instead of the pins; the pins are a pain to move. Do you have a picture of what you've done to yours? I, like you, use the traveler often in gusty conditions here in Jax, but those darned pins make it tough! thanks David Sea Monkeys
Modifying H22/H23 traveler - for David
The stock track and car on the H23 were made by Schaefer, so I used Schaefer traveler end control blocks since they bolt right onto the track (no new holes to drill). I got the ones with the built-in cleats so I could control the traveler from either side of the cockpit. They come in port and starboard versions (get one of each). A six-wheeled car with end fittings and a standup block is available but it was pretty expensive, so I kept the car I had and bought a couple of Harken sheaves and a bow shackle to finish the job. You have to take the track up to get the pins off and the four bolts at the end have to be replaced with longer ones because of the end control plates. This is a good time to recaulk the track. I used 5200 so I won't have to do the job again in two or three years (there are 14 bolts). I masked the area off to make the clean-up easier. I'll take a picture and post it in a day or so. There's a link to Schaefer's website below for more information but you can get better prices by shopping around (I did). Good luck. Peter H23 "Raven"
The stock track and car on the H23 were made by Schaefer, so I used Schaefer traveler end control blocks since they bolt right onto the track (no new holes to drill). I got the ones with the built-in cleats so I could control the traveler from either side of the cockpit. They come in port and starboard versions (get one of each). A six-wheeled car with end fittings and a standup block is available but it was pretty expensive, so I kept the car I had and bought a couple of Harken sheaves and a bow shackle to finish the job. You have to take the track up to get the pins off and the four bolts at the end have to be replaced with longer ones because of the end control plates. This is a good time to recaulk the track. I used 5200 so I won't have to do the job again in two or three years (there are 14 bolts). I masked the area off to make the clean-up easier. I'll take a picture and post it in a day or so. There's a link to Schaefer's website below for more information but you can get better prices by shopping around (I did). Good luck. Peter H23 "Raven"
Thanks.....
And I look forward to the pics. Sounds like quite a job, bet certainly worth it. David
And I look forward to the pics. Sounds like quite a job, bet certainly worth it. David
General traveler layout - for David
David: Here's the traveler on my H23. The track and car are stock. The end sheaves and controls are a matched pair, port and starboard. The Harken sheaves shackled to the car are singles with beckets. A single Wichard bow shackle with captive pin connects both sheaves to the car with enough room left over for the snap shackle on the bottom of the mainsheet tackle (not shown). Snap shackles on both ends make removing the mainsheet tackle from the boom a ...snap! (sorry) There's just one control line, like on a Hobie cat. It's 3/8 Sta-Set about 35 feet long. Yes that's correct...35 ft. The tackle is three-part, plus the slack in the middle. I need to be able to trim from the coaming if necessary. The line runs from the becket of the port car sheave, through the entire tackle on that side, across to the starboard side with plenty of slack, back through the tackle on that side and eventually tied off on the becket of the starboar sheave. I used a buntline hitch at each becket because it takes up very little room. Any book of knots should have a picture if you don't know how to tie one. All in all, this wasn't difficult. The hardest part was masking the track while recaulking to keep everything clean. Make sure not to caulk the two drain holes between the traveler and the cabin bulkhead...they're pretty small to begin with. You'll also need four new bolts for the end controls. I can't remember the size (I think they were 1/4-20) but they were flat-head and 1/2 longer than the old ones. I also posted close-ups of the car and the end control on the Photo Forum in case you need more detail. I hope this helps. Peter H23 "Raven"
David: Here's the traveler on my H23. The track and car are stock. The end sheaves and controls are a matched pair, port and starboard. The Harken sheaves shackled to the car are singles with beckets. A single Wichard bow shackle with captive pin connects both sheaves to the car with enough room left over for the snap shackle on the bottom of the mainsheet tackle (not shown). Snap shackles on both ends make removing the mainsheet tackle from the boom a ...snap! (sorry) There's just one control line, like on a Hobie cat. It's 3/8 Sta-Set about 35 feet long. Yes that's correct...35 ft. The tackle is three-part, plus the slack in the middle. I need to be able to trim from the coaming if necessary. The line runs from the becket of the port car sheave, through the entire tackle on that side, across to the starboard side with plenty of slack, back through the tackle on that side and eventually tied off on the becket of the starboar sheave. I used a buntline hitch at each becket because it takes up very little room. Any book of knots should have a picture if you don't know how to tie one. All in all, this wasn't difficult. The hardest part was masking the track while recaulking to keep everything clean. Make sure not to caulk the two drain holes between the traveler and the cabin bulkhead...they're pretty small to begin with. You'll also need four new bolts for the end controls. I can't remember the size (I think they were 1/4-20) but they were flat-head and 1/2 longer than the old ones. I also posted close-ups of the car and the end control on the Photo Forum in case you need more detail. I hope this helps. Peter H23 "Raven"
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