Foam core advice.

Nonsly

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Apr 14, 2014
4
Montgomery 17 Duxbury
I recently acquired a 1976 Montgomery 17. Part of the starboard cockpit seat was a sandwich made up of the deck layup, a 1" thick slab of green foam core and what looks like 6 oz. fiberglass cloth covering the foam. A photo of the core is attached. I cut out the foam and the fiberglass cloth because the sandwich was delaminating, and now I am looking for advice about replacement core material.

I am thinking about using Core-Cell A500 but I'm not sure what thickness. It doesn't seem like anyone would use 1" thick Core-Cell on a 17' boat. Would 1/2" be enough? Are there any other core materials I should be considering?

Thanks.

 
Nov 9, 2012
2,500
Oday 192 Lake Nockamixon
Nonsly, first, I think you'll get better answers posting your Montgomery 17 questions here: http://forum.trailersailor.com/forum.php?id=8 It's the Montgomery Trailersailers forum. Lots of experience and advise hanging out there.

Second, I think that looks like buoyancy foam, not structural foam. Any glass over that was probably just for protection of the foam.

See ya over at Trailersailers.com!
 

Nonsly

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Apr 14, 2014
4
Montgomery 17 Duxbury
Is it plausible that a 1,500 lb boat with over 500 lbs of ballast would have flotation foam? That never occurred to me, but I'm coming from a 9,000 lb boat where positive flotation was not in the design brief.

I do go on the Montgomery Trailer Sailers forum, but it is pretty dead. I posted to the Montgomery Owner's List Serve but got no response. Maybe they figured only an idiot would not know that was flotation foam.

By the way, I lived in central New Jersey in my youth and have actually sailed on Lake Nockamixon.
 
Jan 11, 2014
12,831
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Is it plausible that a 1,500 lb boat with over 500 lbs of ballast would have flotation foam? That never occurred to me, but I'm coming from a 9,000 lb boat where positive flotation was not in the design brief.

I do go on the Montgomery Trailer Sailers forum, but it is pretty dead. I posted to the Montgomery Owner's List Serve but got no response. Maybe they figured only an idiot would not know that was flotation foam.

By the way, I lived in central New Jersey in my youth and have actually sailed on Lake Nockamixon.
Yes. It doesn't take all that much foam. There are lots of factors to consider, especially the density of the boat's construction material, i.e., how much heavier is it than water. To keep the boat afloat you only need to support difference between the weight of the construction materials and the weight of an equal volume of water.

Here's an example. Aluminum weighs about 169 pounds per cubic foot, water weighs about 64 pounds per cubic foot. If we take that aluminum block and make a boat, it will float because when you consider the volume of the boat (beam x length x depth) the actual weight per cubic of the boat is much less than the same volume of water. A 10x6x2 row boat would have a volume of 120 cubic feet and only weigh 169 pounds, whereas that same volume of water would weigh about 7,680 lbs. The boat floats because it is lighter than the water it displaces.

If we fill the boat with water and sink it, the boat no longer displaces 120 cubic feet of water, it only displaces 1 cubic foot of water, the original volume of aluminum that the boat was built from. To make the aluminum float, we only have to add enough floatation to get the weight per cubic foot of the boat below 64 pounds. If we put in 2 cubic feet of foam weighing 4 pounds each we now have a boat with 3 cubic feet of stuff that weighs in at 177 lbs while 3 cubic feet of water weighs 192 lbs, so the boat will float at its gunwales because is it lighter than the amount of water that it displaces.

In the real world on a boat, lots of other factors are at play. Wood coring serves a floatation function as well as a structural one,reducing the volume of floatation that is necessary. Location of the foam also plays a role. Flotation placed higher in the hull has to support less weight than floatation at the bottom of the hull, so you need less of it.

A Flying Scot at about 950 lbs will float at its gunwales with 2 foam billets of about 6"x8"x 8' tucked under the deck at the rails. That's a little over 5 cubic feet of foam. Assuming the construction of your boat about the same, a 1500 lb boat would require about half again as much or 7.5-8' cf of foam, an amount that can easily be put in a boat.

Not too confusing I hope.
 
Nov 9, 2012
2,500
Oday 192 Lake Nockamixon
Oh, sure, my O'day 192 at 1400# has foam floatation. Jerry M is pretty big on designing with safety factors like that.

Didja post at Trailersailers? It seems kinda dead right now, but if there's a good post, it'll come alive, like Sean Mullligan rescuing a M17 with a split keel in the past week. In the early days, Jerry used steel punchings set in resin for ballast, not lead. If there's any seawater infiltrate, the punchings rust, and swell the keel, and that usually manifests as a tight centerboard, but in this boat's case, it actually split the outside of the keel. Sean has dug out punchings and replaced with lead before for his Montgomery 23 "Dauntless."

Dave Scobie, who's building Sage 17's, Jerry's new design and evolution of the M17, also scans and posts at trailersailers. Dave would surely have a comment for you on that foam.

Good old Nockamixon, with all it's fluky winds… But, it's closer to home than the Chesapeake for me, or Barnegat.

Brian

Is it plausible that a 1,500 lb boat with over 500 lbs of ballast would have flotation foam? That never occurred to me, but I'm coming from a 9,000 lb boat where positive flotation was not in the design brief.

I do go on the Montgomery Trailer Sailers forum, but it is pretty dead. I posted to the Montgomery Owner's List Serve but got no response. Maybe they figured only an idiot would not know that was flotation foam.

By the way, I lived in central New Jersey in my youth and have actually sailed on Lake Nockamixon.
 

Nonsly

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Apr 14, 2014
4
Montgomery 17 Duxbury
To follow up, this foam has got to be structural. It is the only core under the cockpit floor, cockpit seats, quarter births and v-berth, all places that need some kind of reinforcement on a Montgomery 17. Plus, afaik, Montgomery 17s never were marketed as having positive flotation and there is nowhere near 7.5 cubic feet of the stuff in any event. The plan now is to replace the delaminated section using 1/2" Divinycell (more readily available than Core-Cell), epoxy and 10 oz. fiberglass cloth.