Flushing Odors

[Cruisin30MKIII]

Peggy -
We just replaced our toilet with a Raritan II, replaced all hoses with Trident 101 on our Catalina 30 MKIII. We did not yet put in the new vent. Cleared stantion vent and replaced the vent hose. Problem is that when head is flushed, we get an awful smell in the cabin and outside. Whats up? Also, when we flush directly overboard, and leave the overboard discharge valve open, the diverter valve leaks waste water. This does not happen when pumping into the holding tank.

Thanks

Hal B

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Your odors are originating in the holding tank

The tank isn't getting enough oxygen to keep it aerobic--and therefore odor-free.

What, if anything, are you using in the tank?

 

[Cruisin30MKIII]

Re: Your odors are originating in the holding tank

Peggy - We are using KO. I figured that the vent was the problem. Not sure about the leaky y valve though.
Hal

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Your tank doesn't get enough air for K.O. to work aerobically

Try using Odorlos...it's equally "green" and can replace K.O. without having to flush out the tank...but it works differently, and will often work in systems that K.O. can't. Just be sure to read the directions and be one of the few people who actually follows 'em!

As for your leaky y-valve...either you have a loose hose connection on one side of it, or it leaks when open to one side but not the other. So the fix is likely to be either another hose clamp or a new y-valve. (I know...it's ALWAYS something!)

 

[Vic Willman]

Tank Odor

A stantion vent doesn't allow anywhere near enough air to come into the tank for KO to work. It's too small, and it goes straight up. How's the air going to get into the tank? You need a REAL vent, no less than a 3/4" I.D. hose and fittings, with a mushroom-type through hull fitting going horizontally through the hull, well above the waterline - up near the toe rail. If you can accomodate a hose and fittings larger in diameter than 3/4", so much the better. As Peggie has said over and over again, KO requires an oxygen-rich environment in order to work. Peggie used to own the company that sold KO! A stantion vent will not give you an oxygen-rich environment inside the tank; it'll barely give you ANY air coming into the tank. Odorlos will work somewhat better, but no guarantees there, either.

 

[Cruisin30MKIII]

Re: Tank Odor

Yeah - We kinda Chickened out on the vent when we could not find a cowl cover that was not sooo huge. Think we are just gonna have to deal w/ a bit of smell till we haul out and put in the vent.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Why do you have to haul out to install a vent thru-hull??

A vent thru-hull is well above the waterline, so it can easily be done in the water. If you're even a little bit handy with a hole saw--or have a friend who is--it's a walk in the park...once you have the hole, all you need to finish the job is the through-hull, some bedding compound and a couple of hose clamps.

And I think you'll have better luck finding a reasonable size clam shell cover if you search for "clam shell" instead of "cowl."

 

[Ron20324]

Yeah - We kinda Chickened out on the vent when we could not find a cowl cover that was not sooo huge. Think we are just gonna have to deal w/ a bit of smell till we haul out and put in the vent.

I just upped my vent size to 1.25, and used a regular thru-hull. Since the vent hose goes upward (to higher than the deck) from the thru-hull, I'm not putting any outside cover on.

 

[Stu Jackson]

...and used a regular thru-hull. ...I'm not putting any outside cover on.

Where did you locate the thru hull?

 

[Ron20324]

In the hull, silly.... It's where the original was, about 15 inches above the waterline, two-thirds of the way back from the bow. I may put a cork in it from time-to-time.

 

[alan2414]

We have a Beneteau 411(2001) with a persistant acrid odor in the head, especially under the sink and behind the toilet. Previous owner replaced head with a Raritan and hoses with trident nonpermeable #102 hoses. We cleaned the vent line, tightened the clamps. We are currently not using the holding tank, we've flushed it 4 times. Put KO in twice. Does a holding tank go bad? Do guaranteed hoses go bad (5 year guarantee from 2007). I have a head ache

 

[1Goldie]

Re: Your tank doesn't get enough air for K.O. to work aerobically

Hope to get help here. Brand new boat 2009 Hunter 36. Took possession in October 2009. No head vent smell until after the first pump out sometime in March or April. Maybe used the head 3-5 times during the winter months here in Seattle. Gauge was not even showing anything in the tank but we pumped out before we knew we would be going out a lot. Now terrible sewage smell out of the vent at every use. Tried KO. Did not work. Can't believe the hoses would need replacing. The smell is VERY bad.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Relax...it's not your hoses

If it were, your odor would be INSIDE the boat, not out the vent. Your odor is coming from inside the tank.

Start by rinsing out the tank, 'cuz once a tank has turned anaerobic--which is what causes it to stink--nothing will eliminate the odor until the tank has been rinsed out--even if there's only a gallon in the tank...then try a product called Odorlos...it often works in tanks that don't get enough oxygen to allow the bacteria in K.O. to function aerobically. Google it to find a local retailer...RV supply store prices are usually lower than marine store prices.

It will prob'ly work a lot better if you read the directions for use and then actually follow 'em...also if you rinse out your tank at least nominally after every pumpout. And make sure your tank vent does not ever become blocked.

All that also applies to K.O. so if you still have some AND you didn't leave it in your car or dock locker where it got hot enough to kill the bacteria in it, you might give it another try. The bacteria in K.O. can also starve to death if the boat/toilet isn't used often enough to supply 'em with enough food to keep 'em alive...which, from your description, sounds like a good possibility.

Holding tanks require some attention and maintenance...you can't just ignore 'em till they're full. Nor can you put ANY product into a tank in October and expect it to still work in July! And if you don't check your tank vent regularly, it WILL become blocked.

 

[Mario G]

The PO installed a Raritan II head and everything looks right but when I heel greatly the 1st mate says it back fills. Am I looking for a bad valve or something not assembled right? it might even back flush alittle, I never use it..lol its all for the 1st mate.

 

[1Goldie]

Re: Relax...it's not your hoses

Another dumb question. How do you clean the air vent to holding tank? Can you pour some vinegar water mixture down it from the top?

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Mario and Goldie...

First I'll try to explain to Mario what's happening...

Two, maybe three, things are in play:

The first is a mistake that most owners and even boat builders make when they install a tank...they put the vent fitting and the inlet fitting away from the centerline, toward the hull...so that when the boat heels, even a half full tank can spill into the vent line and/or the toilet discharge line. Waste in the vent line spills out the vent and results in a blocked vent...waste in the toilet discharge line runs back to the toilet. This could have been prevented by simply specifying that the fittings be TOWARD The centerline, away from the hull. Although there's not much that can be done to prevent waste spilling out the vent when the vent line is connected to the wrong place on the tank, a simple modification to the toilet discharge line can solve your runback problem: A high loop--not necessarily a vented loop, just an arch that's too high for waste in the tank to climb over.

However, what you're seeing coming back might NOT be coming from the tank...it could be waste that's left sitting in the toilet discharge line 'cuz nobody is flushing long enough in the dry mode to get it all the way to the tank. The solution to that one: flush longer in the dry mode. Any toilet that's working anywhere near factory spec can move bowl contents up to 6 linear feet or 4 vertical feet in the dry mode. If your tank is further from the toilet than, or it's an uphill run from the toilet, a loop immediately after the toilet that's above the top of the tank is the answer...then you only have to pump long enough in the dry mode to clear the top of the loop...gravity will do the rest.

The third thing is most likely worn out joker valve in the toilet discharge. They're designed to prevent catastrophic backflow, but although a brand new one MIGHT block any back flow for short while, it's not supposed to prevent slow seepage...so while joker valves should be replaced at least every two years--annually is better--unless you want replace it once a month, that's not the solution to your problem.

Now to answer Goldie's question.

Nope...that's not the way to maintain a vent line...it needs to be backflushed with water under pressure to knock out any waste buildup, insect nest etc that can clog it. This should be done every time you wash the boat and/or pump out the tank. Stop using the toilet IMMEDIATELY if it starts becoming increasingly harder to pump...and do not even attempt to pump out until you've cleared ou the vent either. Save me a whole bunch of typing here and search the archives in this forum for holding tank vent, vent line blockage...blocked vent line...there have been many discussions about it here.

Both of you might want to check out the link in my signature...it goes to a comprehensive "marine toilets and holding tanks 101" manual that'll help you learn how to operate and maintain your systems to prevent 99% of problems instead of having to fix 'em.

 

[Guest]

Head Operation

Wrote the following article a few years ago. It still resides in the P42 Hunter Owner Improvements section of this site. Hope it helps.

Terry Cox

Head Winds

Author: Terry Cox

Both heads flushed normal during the survey. Keep in mind our new boat (91 model year that we purchased in 2002) spent most of her time at the dock with little to no use for several years. The admiral and I had been cleaning below decks to get Belle-Vie ship shape. We cleaned and checked the forward head and it worked normal, except for a loud thump beneath the admiral's feet, while sitting in the starboard setee. Did the same with the aft head. The first time it flushed fine, then it would not discharge; the water just swirled in the bowl.

I borrowed a plunger from my neighbor thinking the discharge line was plugged, but to no avail. So, I pulled the discharge line from the head, and after releasing a considerable amount of compressed air, went about attaching a city water hose to the line to clear it. The first time it seemed to clean it out after some rumbling. Again, it released compressed air when I disconnected the city water line.

I tried it one more time just to make sure. I remembered reading a forum article about plugged holding tank vents, so I pulled the starboard sole board covering the holding tank and disconnected the vent line from the tank. I then connected the city water line to the vent hose and looked to see if anything was coming out of the scupper. Nothing! Nada! Zip!

I took a small screw driver, and hanging over the side, inserted it into the scupper and gently poked at the opening. First I got a hiss, then a whoosh of water as the pressure blew out some little critter's nest or dried sludge that had plugged the opening. After reconnecting the vent and discharge lines, I checked the heads again and both worked like a charm.

Our standard procedure now is to follow Peggie Hall's advice:

1. Flush one gallon of fresh water through each head to clear out the discharge line.
2. Pump out tank, then fill with fresh water.
3. Pump out tank then fill with about four gallons of fresh water and repeat until clear water pumps out.
4. Using a special city water hose adapter that fits over the vent scupper I force fresh water back through the vent line to make sure that it is clear.
5. Add another four gallons of water and pump out again; repeat until clear water pumps out.
6. I continue to squirt water through the vent line while the pump out removes the last of any remaining sewage.
7. Flush each head with one quart of Odorlos mix.

Shortly after solving the plugged vent scupper problem the same symptom appeared again. This time it was plugged at the tank. Our SS tank has a 1/4 inch bronze elbow that the vent line clamps to. This elbow was plugged with a calcified material. I used a bent wire coat hanger to auger out this material.

As a closing note, thanks to those who have contributed articles to this forum, and especially to Ms. Peggie Hall. They have been very helpful to me in solving Belle-Vie's mostly minor problems. Belle-Vie's holding tank and head system remains trouble free after five years of cruising the PNW waters.

 

[Tartan34C]

...
All that also applies to K.O. so if you still have some AND you didn't leave it in your car or dock locker where it got hot enough to kill the bacteria in it, you might give it another try. The bacteria in K.O. can also starve to death if the boat/toilet isn't used often enough to supply 'em with enough food to keep 'em alive...which, from your description, sounds like a good possibility.

Hmm..I'm wondering then, (love the thought of preserving live bacteria,
If I store KO on my boat and it warms up to 100+ degrees (Tropical heat wave here in Charleston) could the integrity of KO be compromised?

For times we only use the head once a week or every 2 weeks, I plan to spray a small amount of KO or odorlos into the head each use, from a small plastic spray bottle, just want to make sure that sound right.

Tks

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Hmm..I'm wondering then, (love the thought of preserving live bacteria,

You should love that thought...'cuz without bacteria, all life would cease.

If I store KO on my boat and it warms up to 100+ degrees (Tropical heat wave here in Charleston) could the integrity of KO be compromised?

If it gets that hot inside the boat, yes. If the temp inside the locker where you store it stays well below 100 F--which, since boat hulls take their temperature off the water, not the air, is likely- it'll be fine.

For times we only use the head once a week or every 2 weeks, I plan to spray a small amount of KO or odorlos into the head each use, from a small plastic spray bottle, just want to make sure that sound right.

That would not be anywhere near enough of either product. You'd need to add at least a couple of ounces of K.O. to the first flush each time. Odorlos is not a live bacteria product...you need to read and follow the directions for using it if you want it to work.

 

[Tartan34C]

Ah yes, tks for the insight, I didn't think of the bilge area being cooler, water temp get's to high 80's but bilge temp probably wont exceed very low 90's. Cool. (pun intended).

I'm a bit at a loss of using KO vs Odorlos, didn't notice any comparison discussions in previous threads, did notice you seem to recommend Odorloss over KO lately, will review older threads again, and many instructions, to determine which may be best for me. I kinda like the idea of killing off bacteria with live killer bacteria though!