I read in a recent post about putting an inverted flower pot on a stove as a means of heating a cabin. Will this warm the cabin up on an occasional basis and should one position a fan close to the pot to blow the heat arround?
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ventilation!!!!!!!!!!!
The flower pot should work to radiate heat. But remember not to suffocate!!!! Just a oil lantern or candle puts out enough heat to warm up a small boat several degrees. There are cheap flameless camp heaters at Walmart that would probably be better. Whatever you use be sure to have enough ventilation.
The flower pot should work to radiate heat. But remember not to suffocate!!!! Just a oil lantern or candle puts out enough heat to warm up a small boat several degrees. There are cheap flameless camp heaters at Walmart that would probably be better. Whatever you use be sure to have enough ventilation.
I bought a Coleman heater
last fall. It requires 6 square inches of ventilation. Not enough to sail in Nebraska in January, but it does take the chill off. Bob SV Miss Lisa
last fall. It requires 6 square inches of ventilation. Not enough to sail in Nebraska in January, but it does take the chill off. Bob SV Miss Lisa
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It works fine
I've done it, and keep one on board for just that purpose. It won't replace a furnace but does take the edge off. Use a fairly thick pot if you can find one- the new ones are a lot thinner than they used to be.
I've done it, and keep one on board for just that purpose. It won't replace a furnace but does take the edge off. Use a fairly thick pot if you can find one- the new ones are a lot thinner than they used to be.
Camping World - Protable Butane Heater
I saw this in an earlier tread about heating the boat. I bought one and, with the proper precautions, it does a great job. I have used the flower pot and it works. However, you still need to take the CO and depletion of the oxygen seriously. Don't try to sleep using the flower pot or the Butane heater. Neither is vented. The butane heater does have a low oxygen and/or tip over shut off. This is good. It is rated as safe for indoor use. S/V Anodyne Catalina 36'
I saw this in an earlier tread about heating the boat. I bought one and, with the proper precautions, it does a great job. I have used the flower pot and it works. However, you still need to take the CO and depletion of the oxygen seriously. Don't try to sleep using the flower pot or the Butane heater. Neither is vented. The butane heater does have a low oxygen and/or tip over shut off. This is good. It is rated as safe for indoor use. S/V Anodyne Catalina 36'
Cheap & Safe Heat
Colin, try a Mr. Heater from Home Depot or Lowes. It works with the one pound bottles of LP. I sell gas logs for the home and the Mr. Heater is rated as a vent-free heater meaning its safe for use inside the cabin. I have had one for two winters and I would not trade it for anything currently on the market.
Colin, try a Mr. Heater from Home Depot or Lowes. It works with the one pound bottles of LP. I sell gas logs for the home and the Mr. Heater is rated as a vent-free heater meaning its safe for use inside the cabin. I have had one for two winters and I would not trade it for anything currently on the market.
Cabin Heaters
DIRECT VENT CABIN HEATERS: I recommend the use of Direct Vent heaters c/w co-axial flues (chimney or vent). Direct-vent space heaters use sealed combustion so the combustion process is totally separate from the room air - they don't consume indoor air, and they don't affect indoor air quality. Using a coaxial vent system, (a pipe within a pipe), outside combustion air is drawn in through the outer pipe into a sealed combustion chamber containing the burner system. Exhaust flue gases are then vented through the inner pipe outside of the boat. Generally speaking, a co-axial flue is about twice the diameter of a B-Vent (Natural Venting). Naturally vented appliances use interior cabin air for combustion, and often a single wall flue (a double wall ‘B-Vent’ would be preferable). Vent-Free heaters utilize interior air for combustion, and require an adequate outside air supply to the cabin. I'd want to hear lots more about a particular unit, prior to accepting it's utility for use on a boat. Most manufacturers provide thermocouple protection (no flame = no gas), and (usually with naturally vented equipment) oxygen-depletion protection (low oxygen = no gas) devices, both useful safety features. I would recommend the installation of a good gas detector/alarm (CO & CO2, and if using a Diesel appliance NO2). Manufacturers: Force 10 Marine www.force10.com Offers it’s model “1300" heater c/w 12VDC Circulating Fan (variable 4,000 - 9,000 BTU/Hr), utilizing a S/S co-axial flue. Dickinson Marine www.dickinsonmarine.com Offers it’s “P9000 -&- P12000” model heaters c/w 12VDC Circulating Fan (Max. 9000- BTU/H & 12000 BTU/H) , utilizing a S/S co-axial flue. OTHERS ??? OMO Gord
DIRECT VENT CABIN HEATERS: I recommend the use of Direct Vent heaters c/w co-axial flues (chimney or vent). Direct-vent space heaters use sealed combustion so the combustion process is totally separate from the room air - they don't consume indoor air, and they don't affect indoor air quality. Using a coaxial vent system, (a pipe within a pipe), outside combustion air is drawn in through the outer pipe into a sealed combustion chamber containing the burner system. Exhaust flue gases are then vented through the inner pipe outside of the boat. Generally speaking, a co-axial flue is about twice the diameter of a B-Vent (Natural Venting). Naturally vented appliances use interior cabin air for combustion, and often a single wall flue (a double wall ‘B-Vent’ would be preferable). Vent-Free heaters utilize interior air for combustion, and require an adequate outside air supply to the cabin. I'd want to hear lots more about a particular unit, prior to accepting it's utility for use on a boat. Most manufacturers provide thermocouple protection (no flame = no gas), and (usually with naturally vented equipment) oxygen-depletion protection (low oxygen = no gas) devices, both useful safety features. I would recommend the installation of a good gas detector/alarm (CO & CO2, and if using a Diesel appliance NO2). Manufacturers: Force 10 Marine www.force10.com Offers it’s model “1300" heater c/w 12VDC Circulating Fan (variable 4,000 - 9,000 BTU/Hr), utilizing a S/S co-axial flue. Dickinson Marine www.dickinsonmarine.com Offers it’s “P9000 -&- P12000” model heaters c/w 12VDC Circulating Fan (Max. 9000- BTU/H & 12000 BTU/H) , utilizing a S/S co-axial flue. OTHERS ??? OMO Gord
cofee cake
Before we had our diesel furnace installed, we used to whip up a coffee cake from mix before going to bed, and put it into the oven uncooked. First thing the next morning some brave soul would jump out of bed, light the oven, and then sprint back into bed. Half an hour later the cake was ready and the cabin was warm.
Before we had our diesel furnace installed, we used to whip up a coffee cake from mix before going to bed, and put it into the oven uncooked. First thing the next morning some brave soul would jump out of bed, light the oven, and then sprint back into bed. Half an hour later the cake was ready and the cabin was warm.
CO question
Does anybody know whether or not the catalytic heaters emit CO or not? Is this published anywhere? Clearly the flower pot on the stove is a fine way to kill yourself by carbon monoxide poisoning. Unfortunately boats can't be made to let fresh air in from the bottom and leaving air space above lets the warm air out. I expect the safest way is to use the concentric pipe systems that were already mentioned but I am curious about whether the catalytic heaters make carbon monoxide.
Does anybody know whether or not the catalytic heaters emit CO or not? Is this published anywhere? Clearly the flower pot on the stove is a fine way to kill yourself by carbon monoxide poisoning. Unfortunately boats can't be made to let fresh air in from the bottom and leaving air space above lets the warm air out. I expect the safest way is to use the concentric pipe systems that were already mentioned but I am curious about whether the catalytic heaters make carbon monoxide.
John, what if you don't like coffee cake?
would left over pizza do?
Seriously, our Wallis 30D has the afore mentioned inner-outer pipe set up, but my gawd, it is expensive. (dedicated dealers) Ours was over $2100 PLUS TAX. You can buy a heat pump for your home for that. It's a lot of money to keep warm and to keep from cluttering up your boat. Hard to recommend too. (and John, you're in San Fransisco, why do you need heat?)
would left over pizza do?
Seriously, our Wallis 30D has the afore mentioned inner-outer pipe set up, but my gawd, it is expensive. (dedicated dealers) Ours was over $2100 PLUS TAX. You can buy a heat pump for your home for that. It's a lot of money to keep warm and to keep from cluttering up your boat. Hard to recommend too. (and John, you're in San Fransisco, why do you need heat?)Force 10 Heater
I use a force ten heater when I am not at the docks. Installed a propane locker hanging off of the back rails. Heard too many horror storys about propane and boats. I have been told if the flower pot is moist it could pop apart or break. I used to use home electric spaceheaters at the dock with my old boat. I have a heatpump, (reverse cycle) unit on my boat now. I know you should use a carbon monoxide detector ( battery operated) on your boat especially something that doesn't vent out the top of the boat. Tim Welsh
I use a force ten heater when I am not at the docks. Installed a propane locker hanging off of the back rails. Heard too many horror storys about propane and boats. I have been told if the flower pot is moist it could pop apart or break. I used to use home electric spaceheaters at the dock with my old boat. I have a heatpump, (reverse cycle) unit on my boat now. I know you should use a carbon monoxide detector ( battery operated) on your boat especially something that doesn't vent out the top of the boat. Tim Welsh
Products of Combustion
The primary harmful product of combustion (Propane) is Carbon Dioxide (CO2) - very little to zero Carbon Monoxide (CO) is produced,; but Oxygen is depleted. Catalytic Propane heaters use a pad of mineral fibres coated with a very thin covering of a catalyst. Catalysts are compounds that facilitate a chemical reaction, in this case, combustion. Propane is diffused through this pad, and combines with atmospheric oxygen in a low temperature combustion process. The heat of combustion and the combustion products are generally transferred to the cabin space through convection. Important Characteristics of Catalytic Heaters from a Safety Viewpoint: 1. The heater uses air from the cabin for combustion, and combustion products (CO2) are returned to the cabin; as a result, the air in the trailer becomes oxygen-depleted over a period of time if there is no supply of fresh air. INSTALL A CO2 DETECTOR/ALARM. 2. Combustion in a catalytic heater is essentially complete; in a normal atmosphere, where the oxygen content is 21% the products of combustion are essentially carbon dioxide and water vapour. There is very little carbon monoxide. 3. Whereas a properly burning flame of propane in air might have a combustion temperature over 1100oC (2000oF), the temperature at the surface of the catalytic pad is of the order of 450oC (850oF). This temperature is lower than the ignition point of most combustible materials. During normal operation of the heater, there is no flame; the pilot is turned off. It is only during ignition that there is a spark or a flame (some heaters use a flameless ignition process). 4. The catalytic element is very sensitive to gas quality. (I recommend utilizing Automotive Grade Propane - "HD-5") 5. When the element goes out, there may be an interval of time of about 3 to 4 minutes before the control valve turns off the propane; as a result, some propane may find its way into the cabin. VENTILATE the CABIN, PRIOR to RE-STARTING a CATALYTIC HEATER. Regards,
The primary harmful product of combustion (Propane) is Carbon Dioxide (CO2) - very little to zero Carbon Monoxide (CO) is produced,; but Oxygen is depleted. Catalytic Propane heaters use a pad of mineral fibres coated with a very thin covering of a catalyst. Catalysts are compounds that facilitate a chemical reaction, in this case, combustion. Propane is diffused through this pad, and combines with atmospheric oxygen in a low temperature combustion process. The heat of combustion and the combustion products are generally transferred to the cabin space through convection. Important Characteristics of Catalytic Heaters from a Safety Viewpoint: 1. The heater uses air from the cabin for combustion, and combustion products (CO2) are returned to the cabin; as a result, the air in the trailer becomes oxygen-depleted over a period of time if there is no supply of fresh air. INSTALL A CO2 DETECTOR/ALARM. 2. Combustion in a catalytic heater is essentially complete; in a normal atmosphere, where the oxygen content is 21% the products of combustion are essentially carbon dioxide and water vapour. There is very little carbon monoxide. 3. Whereas a properly burning flame of propane in air might have a combustion temperature over 1100oC (2000oF), the temperature at the surface of the catalytic pad is of the order of 450oC (850oF). This temperature is lower than the ignition point of most combustible materials. During normal operation of the heater, there is no flame; the pilot is turned off. It is only during ignition that there is a spark or a flame (some heaters use a flameless ignition process). 4. The catalytic element is very sensitive to gas quality. (I recommend utilizing Automotive Grade Propane - "HD-5") 5. When the element goes out, there may be an interval of time of about 3 to 4 minutes before the control valve turns off the propane; as a result, some propane may find its way into the cabin. VENTILATE the CABIN, PRIOR to RE-STARTING a CATALYTIC HEATER. Regards,
propane is heavier than air
I'm not real sure how to get propane out of a boat but I know it will sink to the lowest spot on the boat. That is what makes it so dangerous on a boat. If it gets in the bilge, how do you get it out?
I'm not real sure how to get propane out of a boat but I know it will sink to the lowest spot on the boat. That is what makes it so dangerous on a boat. If it gets in the bilge, how do you get it out?
Venting Propane
Tim Welsh raises an important point - how do you vent propane from low(er) in the boat (it's heavier than air)?
Tim Welsh raises an important point - how do you vent propane from low(er) in the boat (it's heavier than air)?
Propane diffuses out with air
A concentrated stream of propane will sink. But since it's a gas it diffuses and mixes with air and will leave with normal air exchange. With a slow leak of concentrated propane the leak adds propane faster than it can diffuse making it dangerous with a higher concentration in the bilge . But if you put X amount of propane in a sealed boat given time it would have an equal concentration throughout the boat. The warmer the faster this happens. Any barriers would impede diffusion and might make a locally higher concentration.
A concentrated stream of propane will sink. But since it's a gas it diffuses and mixes with air and will leave with normal air exchange. With a slow leak of concentrated propane the leak adds propane faster than it can diffuse making it dangerous with a higher concentration in the bilge . But if you put X amount of propane in a sealed boat given time it would have an equal concentration throughout the boat. The warmer the faster this happens. Any barriers would impede diffusion and might make a locally higher concentration.
Gord, good post. Where did you learn that stuff?
I tried a catalytic propane heater back in the 70s. The boat turned into a biosphere. You know, one of those sealed bottles with a jungle growing inside. All of the combustion by-product (water) that you alluded too , was dripping from the overhead. I know some of these heaters are vented outside now, but they have to be built-in, don't they?
I tried a catalytic propane heater back in the 70s. The boat turned into a biosphere. You know, one of those sealed bottles with a jungle growing inside. All of the combustion by-product (water) that you alluded too , was dripping from the overhead. I know some of these heaters are vented outside now, but they have to be built-in, don't they?
Power Venting Propane Gas
FOR DISCUSSION ONLY: VENTING GASEOUS PROPANE (LPG) from CABIN & BILGES: * Propane Gas is 153% denser than air (S.G. = 1.53) and will tend to sink towards the bottom of any enclosed space. * Propane ignites at temperature of 920 - 1020 degrees F, in concentrations of between 2.4% to 9.6% (of air volume). Gaseous LPG presents a fire & explosion hazard. * LPG gas that is diffused throughout the compartment is not readily dispelled by overhead ventilation. How do we safely exhaust Propane Gas that may have accumulated in the lower bowels of the boat? PROPOSED for COMMENT & DISCUSSION ONLY: Utilize “powered” ventilation to exhaust gaseous propane from interior spaces, where gravity venting is not practical. Powered ventilation fans and/or blowers shall be Ignition Protected and installed in accordance with ABYC Section ‘H-2', “Ventilation of Boats Using Gasoline”. ALL DUE CAUTION SHOULD BE EXERCISED TO PREVENT THE ACCUMULATION OF PROPANE GAS IN UNVENTED COMPARTMENTS, ACCOMODATIONS, AND INTERIOR SPACES. Regards,
FOR DISCUSSION ONLY: VENTING GASEOUS PROPANE (LPG) from CABIN & BILGES: * Propane Gas is 153% denser than air (S.G. = 1.53) and will tend to sink towards the bottom of any enclosed space. * Propane ignites at temperature of 920 - 1020 degrees F, in concentrations of between 2.4% to 9.6% (of air volume). Gaseous LPG presents a fire & explosion hazard. * LPG gas that is diffused throughout the compartment is not readily dispelled by overhead ventilation. How do we safely exhaust Propane Gas that may have accumulated in the lower bowels of the boat? PROPOSED for COMMENT & DISCUSSION ONLY: Utilize “powered” ventilation to exhaust gaseous propane from interior spaces, where gravity venting is not practical. Powered ventilation fans and/or blowers shall be Ignition Protected and installed in accordance with ABYC Section ‘H-2', “Ventilation of Boats Using Gasoline”. ALL DUE CAUTION SHOULD BE EXERCISED TO PREVENT THE ACCUMULATION OF PROPANE GAS IN UNVENTED COMPARTMENTS, ACCOMODATIONS, AND INTERIOR SPACES. Regards,
propane stove
On our last boat we used a coleman propane stove for cooking. Manuelly lit. My wife turned on the gas and had trouble striking a match. When she finally struck the match a fireball formed around the stove and singed her hair. Made a low swoosh sound. She has never done that again. We bought a lighter and she lites the lighter before turning on the gas. Here in the south we don't need much heat and not that often. But anyone needing to realisticaly heat a boat should use a vented heater. Since diesel is almost kerosene and we carry around a tank of diesel anyway that would seem to be a smart choice. We have propane bottles on board but they are stored outside in the cockpit. They are used for the barbeque. But I doubt that a one pound bottle would blow up a boat unless you had just the right combination of circumstances. We have used our coleman gas lantern to heat the boat a couple of times. It puts out enough heat to warm you up even with the hatch opened. But even then after a hour or so you notice the walls getting wet. Heck even breathing will make the walls wet on a cold night. A vented heating source should eliminate that problem too.
On our last boat we used a coleman propane stove for cooking. Manuelly lit. My wife turned on the gas and had trouble striking a match. When she finally struck the match a fireball formed around the stove and singed her hair. Made a low swoosh sound. She has never done that again. We bought a lighter and she lites the lighter before turning on the gas. Here in the south we don't need much heat and not that often. But anyone needing to realisticaly heat a boat should use a vented heater. Since diesel is almost kerosene and we carry around a tank of diesel anyway that would seem to be a smart choice. We have propane bottles on board but they are stored outside in the cockpit. They are used for the barbeque. But I doubt that a one pound bottle would blow up a boat unless you had just the right combination of circumstances. We have used our coleman gas lantern to heat the boat a couple of times. It puts out enough heat to warm you up even with the hatch opened. But even then after a hour or so you notice the walls getting wet. Heck even breathing will make the walls wet on a cold night. A vented heating source should eliminate that problem too.
Clay pot works!
I use propane for coffee and after the coffee is done, five minutes of a little flower pot turned upside down on the burner heats the entire 26 X....I laughed as I bought the little pot, yet I'll be damned how handy it has become. Seems to drop the moisture content in the burning of propane, for a short spell....a drier heat. I am glad someone else did this. I think I first heard of the idea from a book called, "The Frugal Sailor".
I use propane for coffee and after the coffee is done, five minutes of a little flower pot turned upside down on the burner heats the entire 26 X....I laughed as I bought the little pot, yet I'll be damned how handy it has become. Seems to drop the moisture content in the burning of propane, for a short spell....a drier heat. I am glad someone else did this. I think I first heard of the idea from a book called, "The Frugal Sailor".
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