Florida anchoring legislation

[CanuckSailor]

Word has it that St. Augustine is going to request a ten day anchoring limit and a fairly large buffer zone from the FWC Pilot Program. Stuart may try for a fairly large buffer zone, no other word. Monroe County, in the keys, wants to establish three 'managed anchoring' zones - one near Key Largo in Sunset Cove, two others at Boca Chica and Wisteria Island in Key West. They may also try for pumpout regulations - you'd have to keep a pumpout log to anchor or moor. Rumour has it Sarasota will try (again) for a five mile buffer zone around their mooring field.
These rules will be temporary until 2014, when they will be reviewed and a decision taken as to whether or not to apply them to the whole state at that time.
Given that the whole Pilot Program isn't necessary to deal with derelict boats, illegal pumping out or sea grass issues because there are already laws in place for those, it's looking more and more like a way to appease waterfront homeowners who don't like looking at boats.
Looks like the state of Florida is about to start the fight with cruising boaters again. And just after we got the right to anchor without being hassled settled too.

 

[Rick Sylvester]

Can you

provide links to any of this?

 

[CanuckSailor]

Most of this is the word I'm getting in from media, people who are monitoring the situation, such as Jay Bliss, Port Captain in St. Augustine and others, plus my own knowledge of the situation. Monroe County, I watched the video of the BOCC meeting last week and those were the decisions taken. Here is the clip itself, <http://tinyclip.tv/3122be64> it's long but tells you what is going on. The Key West Citizen had two articles last week, but you'll have to pay to see them other than the first couple of paragraphs.
Stuart has a public meeting coming up next week on the topic, but discussion in minutes of various committees there indicate that is where they are going.
I see you're in St. Pete - my understanding is that they are going to put a mooring field in Vinoy Basin and lock out any anchoring there.
You can check out the information at www.marinersbarr.org for further links and info.

 

[Roger Long]

I'll be turning around at the GA/FL border. I just don't want to be in or leave any money in a state where they are thinking like this.

 

[Rick Sylvester]

We have seen the enemy.

It's us.

I watched the Monroe BOCC meeting clip. For those who also want to see it fast-forward to 9:30 AM but set aside over one and a half hours to watch.

In a nut shell they are tired of cleaning up derelict boats and live-aboards who dump illegally. If somebody was shitting on the sidewalk in front of my house or leaving derelict vehicles on the street in my neighborhood I'd probably be frustrated enough to call the cops or storm city hall. Yeah, yeah, I know about sewer systems in municipalities who illegally dump much more but advancing that argument probably won't convince councils who are fixated on what they perceive as a boater issue.

I think some of their proposals are ludicrous but I understand their frustration. Unfortunately there are plenty of 'concerned' boaters who deal in rumor and untruths. How do we expect it to get better? I don't have the answers other than to conduct myself responsibly and to call out those who don't help the situation (I'm not always very popular.) It helps to find out what the facts are.

As for Vinoy Basin, I would LOVE for it to be filled with moorings. I would LOVE for there to be no anchoring there. It has been filled with derelict and abandoned boats for several years. It's become quite difficult for responsible boaters to anchor there as a result. I know this because I live across the street. Unfortunately, it ain't gonna happen.

There was to be a mooring field in the anchorage adjacent to Marina Jacks in Sarasota but that has fallen through due largely to unanticipated costs. Where on earth do you get a "five-mile buffer zone?"

I think moorings in constricted and popular sites is a fine. We LOVE the moorings in Ft. Myers. We're happy to pay so that we're not banging into an abandoned boat that drifts down on us at 3 AM.

I'm not nearly as enthused with managed anchorage areas but that's another kettle of fish generated by many of the same problems.

Be careful Roger. It may not take long until most states are thinking like this. I think we need to show that the majority of boaters are law-abiding citizens, NOT thugs who can barely afford a half-sunken beater.

 

[RECESS]

Roger,

You better turn back at the South Carolina - Georgia border. Georgia is much worse than Florida in this regard and has laws against live aboard sailors.

 

[Roger Long]

Georgia is much worse than Florida in this regard and has laws against live aboard sailors.

Please tell me more. I have a choice about Florida but the weather will probably dictate that I go as far as the FL border. I've heard that, even in Florida, there usually isn't a problem as long as you keep moving, which is my plan. I'm told that it's when you take a job in town and try to live on your boat anchored in the same spot for days and weeks on end that you'll get a visit from the cops.

How does Georgia differentiate between cruisers and liveaboards?

My cruising style is to visit towns and ports only for supplies and then to seek out the wildest and most remote areas I can find. It doesn't seem like I should have much of a problem in the GA / SC rivers and islands with that approach.

 

[woodster]

Roger,

You better turn back at the South Carolina - Georgia border. Georgia is much worse than Florida in this regard and has laws against live aboard sailors.

hell georgia has laws against everything....i do know of some live aboards in Brunswick....Rodger you may want to check with Dunbar Sales in Brunswick if you have concernes about being here or passing through they should be able it inform you of any difficulties if any.....

regards

woody

 

[Bill1565]

Please tell me more. I have a choice about Florida but the weather will probably dictate that I go as far as the FL border. I've heard that, even in Florida, there usually isn't a problem as long as you keep moving, which is my plan. I'm told that it's when you take a job in town and try to live on your boat anchored in the same spot for days and weeks on end that you'll get a visit from the cops.

Ignore the hysteria! Current and near term future laws in Florida are that you can anchor anywhere suitable for any length of time, except for a pilot program in 5 cities with experimental test restrictions around mooring fields.

If you stay in one place more that 5 days or so, you may get a visit from law enforcement inquiring about your most recent pump out and your holding tank capacity.

Florida law limits the definition of "liveaboard" severely. in your case, Roger, you are a "long term cruiser" nort a liveaboard.

 

[Rick Sylvester]

Come on down Roger.

I think you'll be just fine. In fact, I'm sure you're exactly the kind of boater we need more of here.

Bill, I'm with you. Florida DOES have plenty of problems but it's NOT what much of the hysteria is centered on.

Having said that, if you watch the video clip of the Monroe BOCC meeting that Canuck posted you can see first-hand how these cities end up with some of these ridiculous notions. As I would have guessed, it's not maliciousness, but rather ignorance. A case in point, a required CG Aux safety sticker to anchor in Key West harbor? Jeez. It hasn't happened, but it's mesmerizing (and horrifying) to watch how they get there. Kinda like watching a car crash. Except you're in it.

 

[sailaway78]

I regularly visit

I am a regular visitor to the west coast of Fl. and will be heading that way in the next few weeks. From the panhandle to the Tortugas there are lots and lots of good anchorages, and no hassles. Many places I have anchored up for several days. Have never been boarded, looked at or bothered. In the Manatee river just below Tampa bay there is a boat that has been anchored in the same place for at least a couple of years. Only problem with them is they run a genset some evenings.

 

[Florida sail]

Re: We have seen the enemy.

Rick,

AMEN!!!

 

[RichH]

Please tell me more. I have a choice about Florida but the weather will probably dictate that I go as far as the FL border. I've heard that, even in Florida, there usually isn't a problem as long as you keep moving, which is my plan. I'm told that it's when you take a job in town and try to live on your boat anchored in the same spot for days and weeks on end that you'll get a visit from the cops.

Ignore the hysteria! Current and near term future laws in Florida are that you can anchor anywhere suitable for any length of time, except for a pilot program in 5 cities with experimental test restrictions around mooring fields.

If you stay in one place more that 5 days or so, you may get a visit from law enforcement inquiring about your most recent pump out and your holding tank capacity.

Florida law limits the definition of "liveaboard" severely. in your case, Roger, you are a "long term cruiser" nort a liveaboard.

Good advice/info.
Its only in those areas that have lots of bum boats that seemingly have the problem and where the over-aggressive enforcement that sometimes 'spills-over' onto those who are 'compliant'. Im quite sure that if the bum boats are controlled/removed that the 'problem' will go away.
I offer Marathon / Boot key harbor as an example as before the moorings were installed the harbor was 'primarily' bum boats, the water was severely polluted and there was much theft, etc. going on; now that city moorings dominate the harbor its become a quite 'upstanding place' and relatively unpolluted, although the enforcement culture is sometimes 'overly-aggressive' probably as a 'residual' to prevent the return of past 'bad practices'. When the harbor moorings are 'fully occupied', anchoring is permitted .... but ALL boats, anchored or moored, are pumped-out by the city on a regular basis. Its not perfect but It works and the economy of Marathon gets the benefit.

 

[CanuckSailor]

offer Marathon / Boot key harbor as an example as before the moorings were installed the harbor was 'primarily' bum boats, the water was severely polluted and there was much theft, etc. going on;

That's the whole point here - the new FWC Pilot Program is NOT needed to effect these changes. The purpose of the PP is feared by many to be yet another attempt to legislate anchoring so that wealthy homeowners don't have to look at boats of ANY sort. Time will tell.
Re Sarasota's five mile limit - it was in the news. Sarasota boaters have been fighting a mooring field for years, and doing it very responsibly, setting up a legally recognized 'neighbourhood committee' even with quite reasonable rules.
Sorry to hear about what's happened in Vinoy Basin. You do realize that Florida's best use tax law, which has forced the closure of so many marinas, is at part to blame for many of the boats that are out on the hook now and littering lovely anchorages such as Vinoy. However, the FWC At Risk program can deal with this - contact the FWC and ask them to start tagging and towing these boats out. Also - it's my understanding that in Florida, since the state owns the land underneath, that no boat can remain for longer than six months anyway. You might want to check that out vis a vis St. Pete. But it sounds like someone should get on the horn to local authorities and start telling them to do their job. I've anchored quite a number of times in Vinoy and loved it, along with many others. I'll miss not being able to do so in the future.

 

[CanuckSailor]

Bill -

Ignore the hysteria! Current and near term future laws in Florida are that you can anchor anywhere suitable for any length of time, except for a pilot program in 5 cities with experimental test restrictions around mooring fields.

Fine - we ignore what's going on, and in 2014, the state removes the right to anchor in many places based on the 'temporary' laws that they've decided will work. Didn't we just have this damned fight in Florida, to preserve our rights to anchor?
It's not hysteria - not when the VP government affairs of Boat US calls me up to discuss it, as happened earlier this week. btw, since I haven't properly introduced myself, I'm a freelancer for SAIL Magazine and a Cruising Editor for Waterway Guides, so I'm involved in this. I also cruise full time.

 

[Rick Sylvester]

"The purpose of the PP is feared by many to be yet another attempt to legislate anchoring so that wealthy homeowners don't have to look at boats of ANY sort."

Maybe, but that discussion was nowhere in the video link you provided. What I heard was that they're tired of looking at derelict and abandoned boats. I am too. If this is the perspective we (as boaters) are going to champion then how can we expect city and county governments to take our concerns seriously?

"Sarasota's five mile limit - it was in the news."

That tells us more about a (lack) of reporting accuracy than anything else.

"Sarasota boaters have been fighting a mooring field for years"

Yes they have and IMHO it's misguided. I think it's the perfect place for a mooring field. That anchorage is loaded with derelicts and long-term live-aboards who likely pump overboard illegally. Surely this is not what the neighborhood committee had in mind.

"You do realize that Florida's best use tax law, which has forced the closure of so many marinas, is at part to blame for many of the boats that are out on the hook now and littering lovely anchorages such as Vinoy."

I'm aware of the best use tax law and I'm pretty sure it was altered a couple years ago. The assumption you make is a bit of a stretch anyway. I can only think of one marina that has been closed in the Bay area in the last several years and I'm pretty sure, given the size and condition of the derelicts, that they didn't come from there. I DON'T know this for a fact. In the final analysis though, it wouldn't matter WHERE these boats came from. Abandoning a boat in a popular anchorage is just plain WRONG regardless of what it's history is.

I'm also not sure I follow your logic regarding the FWC and local municipalities. Some of the boating public make a great hew and cry vilifying them (often with rumor and innuendo) while on the other hand suggesting that we need to "start telling them to do their job." Frankly, I don't think thats a strategy thats going to be very effective. It's all about money and it's outrageously expensive to clean up these messes (read: get rid of derelicts.) In the clip you supplied, the BOCC responded that Key West spent $273,000 LAST YEAR (!) to remove sunken, abandoned and derelict boats. I've watched more than a few removed from the Vinoy Basin during the past couple years and I cringe to think about the pot-holes (or whatever) the local residents now have to live with as a result.

There's no doubt the FWC can be heavy-handed and they should be called out when they do wrong. I'm just suggesting that we should look at the big picture whenever we start pointing fingers.

Truthfully, I'm as outraged by all this as you should be, especially if you miss anchoring in a nice spot. Typically, it's not the FWC, BOCC's or city councils who cause this to happen.

 

[Rick Webb]

Y'all are Right you Should Stay Away

The laws are terrible, the crime is abhorrent, the pollution is rampant then there are the mosquitoes, the snakes, alligators and skunk apes. Tack on we saved the country from Al as president I do not know why the other 49 states don't just kick us out.

If you do come we will welcome you and thank you when you leave. You can also save yourself some time we really do not give a crap about how you do it wherever it is you came from. If it is so damn wonderful there why are you down here telling us about it. Oh, if you loved "W" just wait till you see who we send you next.

 

[BrianW]

Re: Y'all are Right you Should Stay Away

Rick..... priceless!

 

[CanuckSailor]

anchoring legislation

The point Rick S, is that the pilot programs are not needed. There are laws, on the books right now, that permit Florida municipalities to deal with every single issue that the PP purports to deal with - derelicts, pumping out, at risk, seabed damage - all of it. So why add to the laws?
Why indeed? Or is there another purpose? I'm not naive, and I don't think you are either from the sound of you. The other purpose is to force boaters into anchorages that don't offend the wealthy shoreside homeowners in places like Miami Beach, Sarasota and Naples.
I'm just as bloody anxious to get rid of the derelicts and pump out problems as any waterfront owner in Florida, because then I can tell the legislative authorities who are trying to force me to do things their way that they are full of bovine caca. I don't travel nearly 3000 nm to have some bureaucrat tell me how to anchor, or where. I am fleeing a place that gets an average 17 feet of snow every damn winter. I was born there, I love it, but I hate the cold. But Florida, as best as I can tell, isn't real fond of me, at least not based on the way I and other cruising boaters get treated.
The BOCC spent $273k last year dealing with derelict boats. You'll notice that, and this comes from Phil Horning of the FWC, that Monroe County doesn't tell you they got over $650,000 from boat registrations to deal with exactly that problem, do you? Or that they have access to another $350k from the state for dealing with....derelict boats. Rick, you have to look past what you're being told by these people to what they aren't telling you.
As long as Florida businesses are willing to take my money, Rick W, I think that gives me some say in how I can expect to be treated. But it's not just me and the rest of us snowbirds, some of whose opinions have been mentioned in this thread - those of you who live in Florida, who want to cruise and anchor in your own state, are being equally affected. Yes, we need to deal with the bummy boats in Vinoy - it breaks my heart to hear how it's gone downhill. But not by creating restrictions that affect the 99% of responsible boaters. You've read the remarks from other boaters who simply don't want to have to deal with Florida, who would rather avoid the state entirely. I'm not far from that decision myself, and I have dozens of friends in the state whom I would not then see.
btw, the neighbourhood committee in Sarasota is an on water neighbourhood committee - not having been there in several years, I'm not going to comment on conditions there as I don't have current knowledge, but I think one question is appropriate here - just who has the right, beyond asking for some reasonable standards regarding aesthetics and health standards, to tell anyone else how to live? If someone chooses to live on a boat, as opposed to in a house or apartment, isn't that their right?
If there is a problem in Sarasota, current laws are in place to address it, including removal of derelict vessels. I heard a police officer on a tv news clip state that they can move a derelict out in five days. So if there's a problem, it's an enforcement problem, not one that requires new laws.
Or, we can give Marina Jacks a monopoly on anchoring and boating in Sarasota. He only owes the county several millions in back taxes they're suing him for now. He pays 3% of his gross in rent. The Sarasota Sailing Squadron pays 8%, and gives back to the City all the time, but they want to raise the Squadron's rent?
Huh? Tell me again what the problem here is?

Wally

 

[CanuckSailor]

Rich H - what's with all the Ricks on this thread for Pete's sake (pun intended, lol) -

When the harbor moorings are 'fully occupied', anchoring is permitted ....

No, that's not the case in Boot Key Harbour, there is room available for anchoring at all times, not just when the balls are filled, and the dockmaster has indicated publicly it will remain that way. But if you want to use the dinghy dock, you pay for that.
By the way, 136 of the mooring balls there are out of commission and require repair from what I'm told by Charmaine Smith Ladd, who follows this issue in Marathon and the Keys. Who pays if a mooring ball should let go while you're on it and your boat is damaged as a result of either coming off the ball and grounding, or hitting or being hit by a boat where the ball failed?