Merry Christmas to all....I've been reading the forums faithfully and have gained much knowledge in many areas as I begin to freshen up my 1979 Hunter30. I've read many ways of refinishing the teak/holy sole which all sound great. Has anyone tried to replace it with actual 1/2" home hardwood planking? I know the factory sheets can be purchased but the veneer is so thin I would like to attempt real hardwood. Does anyone have photos they could forward of what the deck looks like with the teak/holy removed? Curious as to what is there to screw into.(I know this is probably not the brightess idea and I got a million of them) toyroom@ns.sympatico.ca
Flooring
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IF you have teak,
I'm not clear I understand your post, but if you have teak, stick with it. First it is an incredibly expensive wood now. Secondly it is a wood that is not affected by moisture which is why it has been so popular through the ages. You don't want a veneered laminate as you will have big problems if it get really wet, a definitely possibility on a boat. I would love a teak sole on my Catalina 27 but it would affect standing room too much so I don't want to go with it.
I'm not clear I understand your post, but if you have teak, stick with it. First it is an incredibly expensive wood now. Secondly it is a wood that is not affected by moisture which is why it has been so popular through the ages. You don't want a veneered laminate as you will have big problems if it get really wet, a definitely possibility on a boat. I would love a teak sole on my Catalina 27 but it would affect standing room too much so I don't want to go with it.
Hardwood flooring
As mentioned below, teak is not affected much by moisture. It's natural oils resist decay and it's structure keeps it from swelling or shrinking with changes in temperature or wetness. It's also pretty hard, and stands up well to wear. That is why it is the wood of choice for decking and cabin soles. Other hardwoods used for floorboards will have problems. Oak, for example, will shrink and swell a lot. That's why oak flooring in houses is generally made in thin strips. Wide oak boards might "move" an eightth of an inch or more with changes in humidity. This would leave gaps between boards or crush the edges into ridges. Thin strips swell and shrink smaller amounts, and so reduce the the problem to an acceptable level. Oak also turns black if it gets wet. These two reasons are why oak ( and wood in general) isn't used a lot in bathroom or kitchen flooring. (You were planning to keep the water out of it by not using any nails or screws and by varnishing all six sides of each board ?) Other hardwoods such as birch, poplar, or cherry will each have their own issues. All of these have probably been used by somebody at some point. Douglas fir, too, for example. But to keep fir swollen so the deck wouldn't leak, Jack Aubrey's crew on "Surprise" spent a couple of hours every day wetting it down and washing it with holystones. That kind of process would probably result in a mutiny from contemporary crew. Teak veneer, protected by several good coats of varnish, should last a good while. We're replacing our floorboards now because the varnish protecting the edges of the plywood cracked, let in moisture over the past 24 years, and the wood is delaminating. The teak still looks ok, but it's not worth re-gluing to new floorboards.
As mentioned below, teak is not affected much by moisture. It's natural oils resist decay and it's structure keeps it from swelling or shrinking with changes in temperature or wetness. It's also pretty hard, and stands up well to wear. That is why it is the wood of choice for decking and cabin soles. Other hardwoods used for floorboards will have problems. Oak, for example, will shrink and swell a lot. That's why oak flooring in houses is generally made in thin strips. Wide oak boards might "move" an eightth of an inch or more with changes in humidity. This would leave gaps between boards or crush the edges into ridges. Thin strips swell and shrink smaller amounts, and so reduce the the problem to an acceptable level. Oak also turns black if it gets wet. These two reasons are why oak ( and wood in general) isn't used a lot in bathroom or kitchen flooring. (You were planning to keep the water out of it by not using any nails or screws and by varnishing all six sides of each board ?) Other hardwoods such as birch, poplar, or cherry will each have their own issues. All of these have probably been used by somebody at some point. Douglas fir, too, for example. But to keep fir swollen so the deck wouldn't leak, Jack Aubrey's crew on "Surprise" spent a couple of hours every day wetting it down and washing it with holystones. That kind of process would probably result in a mutiny from contemporary crew. Teak veneer, protected by several good coats of varnish, should last a good while. We're replacing our floorboards now because the varnish protecting the edges of the plywood cracked, let in moisture over the past 24 years, and the wood is delaminating. The teak still looks ok, but it's not worth re-gluing to new floorboards.
I used black walnut
for my cabin sole. It is laid on cross beams ( the proper term is floors) of black locust and fastened with screws so that I can lift them when the need arises. Black walnut is stable (that is why it is used for gunstocks) it is reasonably durable. I have left gaps that allow water to drain into the bilge. I keek them well oiled and they look great.
for my cabin sole. It is laid on cross beams ( the proper term is floors) of black locust and fastened with screws so that I can lift them when the need arises. Black walnut is stable (that is why it is used for gunstocks) it is reasonably durable. I have left gaps that allow water to drain into the bilge. I keek them well oiled and they look great.
Check out the link below
for a photo spread and description of replacing the sole on a Hunter 23 with ply, grooved and filled with wood filler, to give a light colored sole with dark (mahogany) stripes. The light wood brightens up the cabin no end. I know, 'cause I did it too. Varnishing all six sides (the top with satin, the bottom and edges with gloss) seal the ply so the damp does not penetrate. You would need at least five coats, lightly sanded between each, and if you are screwing down, the countersunk holes must also be thoroughly varnished inside to seal them. Mine came out great. BTW, apply alight coat of varnish before cutting the grooves to seal the grain so that the filler doesn't run into it, and sand off the excess. The grooves should be about half to three quarters of the thickness of the first layer of lamination.
for a photo spread and description of replacing the sole on a Hunter 23 with ply, grooved and filled with wood filler, to give a light colored sole with dark (mahogany) stripes. The light wood brightens up the cabin no end. I know, 'cause I did it too. Varnishing all six sides (the top with satin, the bottom and edges with gloss) seal the ply so the damp does not penetrate. You would need at least five coats, lightly sanded between each, and if you are screwing down, the countersunk holes must also be thoroughly varnished inside to seal them. Mine came out great. BTW, apply alight coat of varnish before cutting the grooves to seal the grain so that the filler doesn't run into it, and sand off the excess. The grooves should be about half to three quarters of the thickness of the first layer of lamination.
it's non-slippery silly
Teak = non-skid Holly = looks to replace deck caulking Thats why they have teak below. It has little to do with water absorption etc. The PO of my boat replaced the T&H with "A" grade plywood and it look good (not great) and it does brighten things up, but when it gets wet, forget about it. And at sea it's worse. I am going to have to put some grit on it, which means it will be a pain to wash, but at least a lot safer. So yes teak is dark, but it's there for a purpose. Unvarnished, when wet, it isn't very slippery. Of course you could just replace the bottoms of your shoes with suction cups.
Teak = non-skid Holly = looks to replace deck caulking Thats why they have teak below. It has little to do with water absorption etc. The PO of my boat replaced the T&H with "A" grade plywood and it look good (not great) and it does brighten things up, but when it gets wet, forget about it. And at sea it's worse. I am going to have to put some grit on it, which means it will be a pain to wash, but at least a lot safer. So yes teak is dark, but it's there for a purpose. Unvarnished, when wet, it isn't very slippery. Of course you could just replace the bottoms of your shoes with suction cups.
Flooring Options
Many thanks to all for your input. As PaulK, my laminates are also beginning to lift which is why the question arises on replacement. While looking at samples of hardwood for our livingroom last week, we were shown demos of teak and also black walnut which were very striking. I helped a friend build a cedar strip canoe and he fabricated a steam tube from a PVC pipe and kettle so "forming" a slat to shape the hull should not be an issue. From the info provided, if either teak or black walnut are used and expansion room compensated for this should be doable??? Ross, if by chance you have any pictures you could forward, it would be greatly appreciated. toyroom@ns.sympatico.ca
Many thanks to all for your input. As PaulK, my laminates are also beginning to lift which is why the question arises on replacement. While looking at samples of hardwood for our livingroom last week, we were shown demos of teak and also black walnut which were very striking. I helped a friend build a cedar strip canoe and he fabricated a steam tube from a PVC pipe and kettle so "forming" a slat to shape the hull should not be an issue. From the info provided, if either teak or black walnut are used and expansion room compensated for this should be doable??? Ross, if by chance you have any pictures you could forward, it would be greatly appreciated. toyroom@ns.sympatico.ca
Chris
Thanks for posting that link. I had it and lost it so I'm happy to have it again. My winter project is helping my son-in-law restore his H23. The attached picture shows the floor boards I made from cabinet-grade birch plywood. I stained every surface with mahogany gel stain and then routed 1/4 inch grooves every 2 inches. I used iron-on edge trim for the light colored inlays and then used Ultimate Sole sealer and finish on every surface. My son-in-law saw it and wanted the same effect for the companionway step. The extra depth of the pre-existing grooves in the step required 2 layers of inlay material. None of it was fun, but I'm happy with the finished product and the price was hundreds of dollars less than teak and holly ($200 just for shipping) would have been.
Thanks for posting that link. I had it and lost it so I'm happy to have it again. My winter project is helping my son-in-law restore his H23. The attached picture shows the floor boards I made from cabinet-grade birch plywood. I stained every surface with mahogany gel stain and then routed 1/4 inch grooves every 2 inches. I used iron-on edge trim for the light colored inlays and then used Ultimate Sole sealer and finish on every surface. My son-in-law saw it and wanted the same effect for the companionway step. The extra depth of the pre-existing grooves in the step required 2 layers of inlay material. None of it was fun, but I'm happy with the finished product and the price was hundreds of dollars less than teak and holly ($200 just for shipping) would have been.
Rick,
Merry Christmas from a realist.
I just want to comment on the price 'fear' of teak and holly plywood. I bought the stuff you see in this photo in 2002. Full sheets of 3/4" (4'x8') were less than $200.00. The stuff in this picture was about $120. I'm sure no expert on wood but it seems to me that you can beat the freight cost quoted at $200 a sheet. That borders on a crime. If you're within a half days drive of a specialty wood store, they should be able to fix you up. Mine delivers for free, that far if I spend $200. What you are asking, about planking, has been covered in a recent article in Cruising World. Guys here have done it with solid teak. Tim Welsh (did I spell that right Tim?) for one. But he knows what he's doing and made his own planks. So, whatever you do, good luck and don't let the bastards rip you off. Merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas from a realist.
I just want to comment on the price 'fear' of teak and holly plywood. I bought the stuff you see in this photo in 2002. Full sheets of 3/4" (4'x8') were less than $200.00. The stuff in this picture was about $120. I'm sure no expert on wood but it seems to me that you can beat the freight cost quoted at $200 a sheet. That borders on a crime. If you're within a half days drive of a specialty wood store, they should be able to fix you up. Mine delivers for free, that far if I spend $200. What you are asking, about planking, has been covered in a recent article in Cruising World. Guys here have done it with solid teak. Tim Welsh (did I spell that right Tim?) for one. But he knows what he's doing and made his own planks. So, whatever you do, good luck and don't let the bastards rip you off. Merry Christmas.Fred
That price quote was for shipping FROM the Pacific Northwest. And you live where??? A major part of the cost was because they had to sandwich it between two other sheets of plywood and crate it. Do you have any idea what a shipping company would do to that beautiful wood without really good protection? The price of the teak and holly ran around $200 per sheet. This isn't the first sole I have done. Just the cheapest. Or was it that I was the cheapest?
That price quote was for shipping FROM the Pacific Northwest. And you live where??? A major part of the cost was because they had to sandwich it between two other sheets of plywood and crate it. Do you have any idea what a shipping company would do to that beautiful wood without really good protection?
The price of the teak and holly ran around $200 per sheet. This isn't the first sole I have done. Just the cheapest. Or was it that I was the cheapest?
Stunning Larry
You guys in Oklahoma don't have lumber stores huh? But at least you can sail, right?
You guys in Oklahoma don't have lumber stores huh? But at least you can sail, right?
Not so stupid....
It's good to know that from all the response and input that my question was not so far out to lunch. When I take on projects I tend to go overboard(no pun intended). From viewing Fred and Chris' sites, I seem to slide right into a slot that many others are in. It's extremely beneficial to see what has been accomplished by others and it increases the sailing enthusiasm to us newbies.(can't wait to run over my very first buoy)Just finished supper with my woodworking buddy and discussed all what you'se have said and he's all for attempting the hardwood slat concept.
It's good to know that from all the response and input that my question was not so far out to lunch. When I take on projects I tend to go overboard(no pun intended). From viewing Fred and Chris' sites, I seem to slide right into a slot that many others are in. It's extremely beneficial to see what has been accomplished by others and it increases the sailing enthusiasm to us newbies.(can't wait to run over my very first buoy)Just finished supper with my woodworking buddy and discussed all what you'se have said and he's all for attempting the hardwood slat concept.
Teak availability
We have lumber stores. The local demand for teak is not real strong and doesn't justify anybody stocking it. The nearest supplier I know of is in Panama City, Florida. The other side of that is how much trouble I had finding oak in Florida. In fact, when I remodeled a condo in Panama City, I hauled oak cabinets from Oklahoma to Florida. I had a load of teak in my van on the trip back to Oklahoma. Well, at least it was a load, dollar-wise. It doesn't take much of that stuff to amount to a lot of money. Can I sail? I guess that depends on who you ask. I went to the boat this morning and had to be very careful not to slip on the ice on deck and fall in the lake. 96 days 'till April. Come on April!!!!
We have lumber stores. The local demand for teak is not real strong and doesn't justify anybody stocking it. The nearest supplier I know of is in Panama City, Florida. The other side of that is how much trouble I had finding oak in Florida. In fact, when I remodeled a condo in Panama City, I hauled oak cabinets from Oklahoma to Florida. I had a load of teak in my van on the trip back to Oklahoma. Well, at least it was a load, dollar-wise. It doesn't take much of that stuff to amount to a lot of money. Can I sail? I guess that depends on who you ask. I went to the boat this morning and had to be very careful not to slip on the ice on deck and fall in the lake. 96 days 'till April. Come on April!!!!
Teak
handles water well and is not slippery underfoot. However modern T&H plywood can delaminate like any other plywood if not protected well and if subjected to constant wetness. (like at the base of my keel stepped mast!). I am in the process of making up some panels with Lonseal laminated to 1/2 inch fiberglass panels for my sole. Don't know how this will work, but sole in my 1991 boat was already replaced once and needs it again. http://www.lonsealspecialty.com/lonwdteakholly.html
handles water well and is not slippery underfoot. However modern T&H plywood can delaminate like any other plywood if not protected well and if subjected to constant wetness. (like at the base of my keel stepped mast!). I am in the process of making up some panels with Lonseal laminated to 1/2 inch fiberglass panels for my sole. Don't know how this will work, but sole in my 1991 boat was already replaced once and needs it again. http://www.lonsealspecialty.com/lonwdteakholly.html
I have a '79 Hunter 37c
The cabin sole in your 30 may or may not be the same. Mine has a solid fiberglass sole/floor under the original veneered plywood sole. It was totally delaminated so I pulled it all up ( the bigest part off the job). Then I glued and screwed epoxy soaked 1/2" marine plywood to the fiberglass "sub-floor" (that's what you'd call it in a house, I don't know the technical term for a boat). I wanted some meat to bite into for screwing and plugging some solid teak t&g planking I bought from Bali. I don't have the teak in yet. I'm still dong a bunch of cabinet work in the galley and salon. It will be the last step to the make-over. Lots of good solid fiberglass floor down there though. See pic:
The cabin sole in your 30 may or may not be the same. Mine has a solid fiberglass sole/floor under the original veneered plywood sole. It was totally delaminated so I pulled it all up ( the bigest part off the job). Then I glued and screwed epoxy soaked 1/2" marine plywood to the fiberglass "sub-floor" (that's what you'd call it in a house, I don't know the technical term for a boat). I wanted some meat to bite into for screwing and plugging some solid teak t&g planking I bought from Bali. I don't have the teak in yet. I'm still dong a bunch of cabinet work in the galley and salon. It will be the last step to the make-over. Lots of good solid fiberglass floor down there though. See pic:
Plasteak Anyone?
Ahoy Rick, There is a product that OEM's are going to, called Plasteak it is a vinyl product. I installed the flooring on my boat and it is great. I am also making a bow pulpit out of their boards. Check out their website Fair Winds Cap'n Dave
Ahoy Rick, There is a product that OEM's are going to, called Plasteak it is a vinyl product. I installed the flooring on my boat and it is great. I am also making a bow pulpit out of their boards. Check out their website Fair Winds Cap'n Dave
Same boat...sort-of
Rick, I'm in a similar situation--thanks for starting this thread. The bulkheads in my old Annapolis 26 have rotted over the years, to the point where the bottom 2" have been scraped-away using nothing more than a screwdriver. As a result, the lack of the bulkheads taking some of the weight has caused a crack between the setee side and the step to the v-berth where the compression post has gone further into the sole. Not a huge deal (since I'm replacing the bulkheads this winter) but I'm thinking of using 1/2" plywood (glassed or varnished) all over the sole (including under the compression post) and putting 1/2" teak tongue & groove over that--likely varnished. I don't have a lot of real estate to cover in the cabin, and think I can do it for just under $100. The link below is for a company that ships t&g teak fairly inexpensively. Thoughts? Good luck! Mook
Rick, I'm in a similar situation--thanks for starting this thread. The bulkheads in my old Annapolis 26 have rotted over the years, to the point where the bottom 2" have been scraped-away using nothing more than a screwdriver. As a result, the lack of the bulkheads taking some of the weight has caused a crack between the setee side and the step to the v-berth where the compression post has gone further into the sole. Not a huge deal (since I'm replacing the bulkheads this winter) but I'm thinking of using 1/2" plywood (glassed or varnished) all over the sole (including under the compression post) and putting 1/2" teak tongue & groove over that--likely varnished. I don't have a lot of real estate to cover in the cabin, and think I can do it for just under $100. The link below is for a company that ships t&g teak fairly inexpensively. Thoughts? Good luck! Mook
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