First 285?
- Thread starter shemandr
- Start date
With a symmetrical spinnaker, yes. With an asym, no.
The 285 is a nice 28 footer, probably the best 80's 28 footer you'll come across. Sadly most here in the USA have a wheel, a cabin-top traveler, and a wing keel.
I've been on one in France with a tiller that had the traveler across the bridge deck. Fin keel. THAT was a nice boat. Most USA boats had wings and wheels. Like most cruisy boat with smaller wheels, it's hard to drive from the rail. That makes helming while racing a lot more challenging.
The 285 is a nice 28 footer, probably the best 80's 28 footer you'll come across. Sadly most here in the USA have a wheel, a cabin-top traveler, and a wing keel.
I've been on one in France with a tiller that had the traveler across the bridge deck. Fin keel. THAT was a nice boat. Most USA boats had wings and wheels. Like most cruisy boat with smaller wheels, it's hard to drive from the rail. That makes helming while racing a lot more challenging.
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It's a wing, with a wheel. I can't tell about the traveler. I don't think the first picture is of the boat they are selling. It seems to have a tiller and the other pictures clearly show a wheel. So, I'll talk to the broker. Maybe I'll go look.
The question is whether I can sail it to it's rating. That is what phrf racing is about.
FYI I'm not looking to create a racing team. I'll sail Wed PM's which are not scored and club level weekend races with primarily my wife as crew. Actually, I'll get to drive upwind and she'll drive downwind.
The question is whether I can sail it to it's rating. That is what phrf racing is about.
FYI I'm not looking to create a racing team. I'll sail Wed PM's which are not scored and club level weekend races with primarily my wife as crew. Actually, I'll get to drive upwind and she'll drive downwind.
If has a wheel it has the traveler over the cabin top. Both sub-optimal for racing. But hey the boats rating already factors that in. But the tiller setup is easier and better short-handed.
With just you and your wife it unlikely that you'll sail it to it rating. Because PHRF assumes fully crewed-well crewed. With less than that you have no chance.
The real question is if others are doing the same. Then you will probably equally miss sailing to your rating.
We have new people in our PHRF fleet complaining about their ratings and I laugh to myself. I'll watch them out of trim and out of phase, bleeding MINUTES and them come back and whine about SECONDS. ;^)
I tell them this. A big rating adjustment would be 6sec/mile. A typical Wednesday night race is what 3 miles? Unless they are losing to a boat consistently by less than 12 SECONDS a rating change matter not. Often they are getting crushed by 2-3 minutes.
With just you and your wife it unlikely that you'll sail it to it rating. Because PHRF assumes fully crewed-well crewed. With less than that you have no chance.
The real question is if others are doing the same. Then you will probably equally miss sailing to your rating.
We have new people in our PHRF fleet complaining about their ratings and I laugh to myself. I'll watch them out of trim and out of phase, bleeding MINUTES and them come back and whine about SECONDS. ;^)
I tell them this. A big rating adjustment would be 6sec/mile. A typical Wednesday night race is what 3 miles? Unless they are losing to a boat consistently by less than 12 SECONDS a rating change matter not. Often they are getting crushed by 2-3 minutes.
The First 285 is not a good boat for PHRF. AFAIK they didn't import the fin version. The win keel is awful upwind as it slides sideways. When racing you would have to have a guy standing in the companionway to trim main so he better know how to duck. The frac rig is not all that good in venues with a lot of chop. Rating should be around 198 to make the boat competitive. BTW, there is a C&C29-II SD (4'6") in our area for sale (freshwater only) for $10,500. Yanmar 2 cylinder, dodger Harken RF. Looks to be a steal.
Boats are what they are.
The 285 rates 186 in YRALIS where the OP is. Slower in LE (192) and other places. Faster in others. Amazingly 213 right next door in LO. According to USsailing there is a 30 seconds swing for the entire set of fleets, rather large for a boat that size. But the key to remember that is is OBSERVED performance vs other boats in the area. Boats have those number because they generally sail to them in that area, or more precisely they sail to the delta between the boats numbers. The absolute number is less important.
WNR you are probably right about only wings here in the USA. yes all cabintop travelers suck. But good sailor get a frac boat thru chop just fine. N.B - all 285 here were made here, not imported.
The 285 rates 186 in YRALIS where the OP is. Slower in LE (192) and other places. Faster in others. Amazingly 213 right next door in LO. According to USsailing there is a 30 seconds swing for the entire set of fleets, rather large for a boat that size. But the key to remember that is is OBSERVED performance vs other boats in the area. Boats have those number because they generally sail to them in that area, or more precisely they sail to the delta between the boats numbers. The absolute number is less important.
WNR you are probably right about only wings here in the USA. yes all cabintop travelers suck. But good sailor get a frac boat thru chop just fine. N.B - all 285 here were made here, not imported.
Jackdaw, the chop on Lake Erie especially the western end is a bit different. Super steep, short duration with a lot of direction changes. I have raced on Lake Michigan, Lake Huron, and Lake Ontario. The chop on those lakes it quite a bit different. It could have to do with the 12-25 foot depths of western lake Erie combined with the 25 to 200 mile fetches. Frac rigged boats here struggle in winds from 10-15 knots especially if the wind is from the northeast, north, or northwest. The original 285s were built in France (1983-1986) since Beneteau did open its plant in SC until 1986.
Is this your opinion of all wing keels or for this particular boat?
I'd really like to not have a masthead rig. Mrs. will not be able to trim jib in. That's why we sold the Ranger.
Interesting observations re the chop and fract; I'm not going to argue with your actual observations!
I AM pretty sure however that the 285 started series production worldwide in 1996; both in France and one of the first two boats (along with the 235) produced by beni in the USA.
http://www.finot.com/bateaux/ancienbt/first/first285/fst285.htm
Andrew,
ALL wing boats will suffer from this; indeed all shoal boat will. There is NO substitute for draft. Sadly all USA-built 285 are wings. And probably all are wheels, which is too bad. I do know at least one tiller boat in the USA, it might be a conversion because that would be rather easy.
This is what God intended the 285 to look like...
Indeed. Tiller with extender or a BIG wheel. Gotta get yer butt up and on the coaming. Better weight disti, better view of the telltails. And on the Firsts much more comfortable. It's where Finot designed the boat for you to sit. That scooped coaming and perfectly wide side deck makes a very comfortable bucket seat.
If God had intended tillers, She would not have invented the wheel
[/QUOTE]Ron she did the wheel thing because she sometimes wants us to be uncomfortable! ;^)
I've never found a boat with a wheel (including the one I own!) that is truly, honestly comfortable driving for long periods.... either standing up or sitting, in particular while racing. Standing never is, and sitting while leaning over to be near the up/down motion of the wheel is not much better. With a good tiller setup however I could almost fall asleep, the position is so comfortable.
That's why.
I had to move from past all tillers ( five of them) to a wheel. Too much arthritis in the neck. Couldn't sit with my neck turned for very long. Brought on wicked headaches and super stiff neck muscles. Some compromises must be made. Much more comfortable now. Though still have problems looking up at the windicator. Moved to a Tic-Tack but force of habit still has me looking up more than I should.
Story wrap up: I looked at the First 285 yesterday. It's not in very good condition or even "Lovingly maintained." Bulkhead for the aft cabin is disintegrating. It appears to me there was water in the boat above the floor boards and one is seriously warped. Water damage in multiple locations is claimed to have been from accumulation of rain water (Maybe - the bilge pan is shallow) - but there is nothing "Loving" about that! The keel is iron and needs to be stripped to bare metal and redone. There is a new rig due to a yard dropping the mast while stepping it - INSCO paid for that.
It is the wheel, cabin top traveler and wing keel as Jackaw described. It is difficult for me to get around the wheel - made worse because of the cover.
They want what I consider to be at the top of the range in dollars but it's clear they'll take less. My wife and I agree we're not excited by having to do the cosmetic improvements that we would consider necessary. Unless this is a PHRF rocketship I can't see a reason to get involved. To me the boat is only worth about 1/3 of what they are asking. I don't think I'm going to have it surveyed.
It is the wheel, cabin top traveler and wing keel as Jackaw described. It is difficult for me to get around the wheel - made worse because of the cover.
They want what I consider to be at the top of the range in dollars but it's clear they'll take less. My wife and I agree we're not excited by having to do the cosmetic improvements that we would consider necessary. Unless this is a PHRF rocketship I can't see a reason to get involved. To me the boat is only worth about 1/3 of what they are asking. I don't think I'm going to have it surveyed.
That probably IS rain water damage. As you note the shallow pan allows water to accumulate there... Don't fully close the hatch and that happens if you get a good rain and don't sop it up. If you're looking for a racer first then probably not a good choice in US-spec. In that same length and price range I'd look at a j/29. Lighter and much more spartan, it will however kick a F285s butt.
When I had a buyer for my B235 lined up, I went to the local B dealer, AYS, to get a 285. No longer made, says he. The 323 was now the next size up. I did end up with that 323, very happily. Yesterday a 285 went by and I stared at it for a long time. Long time.