Hey racers I have a couple of technical questions. My 336 has a high roach main, slotted foot and a 110 jib. Do I have any options for shaping my sails given my rig limitations? To get her in acceleration mode I need to move the draft forward and make the sail fuller, but I dont have a cunningham, my main isnt loose footed. Can I reduce the luff tention with just the main halyard? Will easing the outhaul help on a slotted main? I do use a poor mans barberhaul by running it off the jib sheet to the upwind winch on the coachroof to help shape the slot. Of course, I know how to use the traveler, main sheet and vang well er.. im definately no expert but a quick study. But in light airs either on or off the wind how would you get my 336 accelerating as quickly as possible after a tack or timing the start. Thanks Rick
- Status
Wow,.....
...your asking a lot of questions all rolled up in one. It would really help your trim if you would go racing with one of the better boats in your fleet. You will learn a great deal in just a couple of races. I would strongly recommend that you buy Don Guillette's book "Sail Trim Users Guide". It covers all of what you are asking. I would also advise you have an expert check your rig tunning. A poorly tuned rig will never produce its best. You have a B&R rig so you need 2% mast prebend and at least 1% mast rake. You should also invest in line adjustable genoa cars. Adjusting these cars is a critical part of proper sail trim and often overlooked.
...your asking a lot of questions all rolled up in one. It would really help your trim if you would go racing with one of the better boats in your fleet. You will learn a great deal in just a couple of races. I would strongly recommend that you buy Don Guillette's book "Sail Trim Users Guide". It covers all of what you are asking. I would also advise you have an expert check your rig tunning. A poorly tuned rig will never produce its best. You have a B&R rig so you need 2% mast prebend and at least 1% mast rake. You should also invest in line adjustable genoa cars. Adjusting these cars is a critical part of proper sail trim and often overlooked.
Alan, I have read that
I am concerned with what I dont know. Women, sloping greeens, why if you put something in a truck its called a shipment, but when its on a boat its called cargo. Stuff like that
I have read Don's book along with a couple others. I dont have a genoa because I have a 110 jib and a high roach main that is my engine. My jib chips in wonderfully but... I do have adjustable jib cars from 8 to 11 degrees which is good. I want to know because I have a cruiser first and racer second, if I can gain anything by easing my outhaul on a tracl footed main. I dont have a cunningham so I have no way to move the draft position forward other than easing the halyard OR easing the vang, mainsheet to get the "squirt" off the start or if im sailing in light airs. I just want to know if anyone deals with this or its such a small percentage that im waisting my time. I mean what if I took the foot of my main out of its track for the Newport to Ensenada race. OUTside the box. And no I dont have an adjustable backstay but I have a wonderfully tuned rig right off the "press". Come on Ross, Stu.. help me here. Cheers
I am concerned with what I dont know. Women, sloping greeens, why if you put something in a truck its called a shipment, but when its on a boat its called cargo. Stuff like that
I have read Don's book along with a couple others. I dont have a genoa because I have a 110 jib and a high roach main that is my engine. My jib chips in wonderfully but... I do have adjustable jib cars from 8 to 11 degrees which is good. I want to know because I have a cruiser first and racer second, if I can gain anything by easing my outhaul on a tracl footed main. I dont have a cunningham so I have no way to move the draft position forward other than easing the halyard OR easing the vang, mainsheet to get the "squirt" off the start or if im sailing in light airs. I just want to know if anyone deals with this or its such a small percentage that im waisting my time. I mean what if I took the foot of my main out of its track for the Newport to Ensenada race. OUTside the box. And no I dont have an adjustable backstay but I have a wonderfully tuned rig right off the "press". Come on Ross, Stu.. help me here. Cheersexperiment, but...
Ease the halyard just enough to see the slight horizontal wrinkles along the luff of the main. In light air, ease the outhaul, how much or if at all your log will have an answer. Ease the vang so the main stays full. One underlying principle to keep in mind sailing in light air is you want to keep the sails in acceleration mode like you say, however, they can't be so full that the wind literally has a hard time filling them. I'll confess when that's the problem, I think the easiest solution is to put the rail rats to leeward and let gravity do its thing.
Ease the halyard just enough to see the slight horizontal wrinkles along the luff of the main. In light air, ease the outhaul, how much or if at all your log will have an answer. Ease the vang so the main stays full. One underlying principle to keep in mind sailing in light air is you want to keep the sails in acceleration mode like you say, however, they can't be so full that the wind literally has a hard time filling them. I'll confess when that's the problem, I think the easiest solution is to put the rail rats to leeward and let gravity do its thing.
What is a 336? .....
The fastest way to accelerate a fractional rigged boat out of a tack or at a start is to power-up by easing the backstay and allow the mast to straighten out bit which will iinduce slightly greater draft in the sail .... the entire sail. Simultaneously, slightly drop the traveller a few degrees to bring the CE slightly forward; if the apparent wind allows it as the slower the boat is going during a tack the higher the 'apparent wind angle' will be during the maneuver - the few degree differences of set can be estimated from your boats polars for different wind speeds. Easing the backstay will induce more draft into the mainsail and easing the mainsheet ever so slightly will open the leech slightly .... but I wouldnt change the luff tension, I'd very slightly ease the mainsheet to bring the 'second from the top' battens back to parallel to the boats centerline. (Easing the backstay will also make the battens 'cock to windward') follow the leech telltales with the mainsheet !!! Slacking the luff tension will do just the opposite of what you want for acceleration ...... easing luff tension will cause the luff to take on a flattened entry shape (speed shape), and change the balance of the helm !!!!!!!! Once the boat is set up prior to the race and you find the 'sweet spot' of helm pressure for the conditions, leave the halyard alone (unless the conditions so change during the race thay you notice a change in helm pressure). I find on most (relatively lightweight) fractional boats simply presetting a few degrees of traveler drop and easing the backstay is sufficient to 'power-up' for acceleration out of a tack. Easing the backstay will also help set up for a roll-tack and also allows the boat to heel over to better climb to weather/pinch at the END of the previous tack where such sailing much higher than normal really pays off in saving perhaps several boatlengths of distance on the NEXT leg. So playing the traveller and backstay can 'work' going into a tack as well as coming out of one. If youre already flying a FULL set of telltales: luff, leeches AND a row of steering tell tales on the jib ... then such an acceleration 'pre-setup' is easy during the 'tune-up' settings well prior to a race. Simply go through a few tacks and note the degradation of performance of the telltales coming out of the tack, make the corrections of backstay tensions and traveller position to find the 'optimum' for the conditions for the 'day' ... save those settings in mind and ease down immediately to those found settings before a tack .. then slowly return to the 'speed' setting as the boat goes through its acceleration on the other side of a tack. Obviously you will need well practiced helmsman, mainsheet trimmer and 'jibster' to be well coordinated to make all these changes 'smoothly' ... especially if you are roll-tacking the boat. (Watch that jib sheet tension as its all too common to overload the jib sheet which will cause the luff to be overloaded perpendicularly thus the jib luff 'induced' into a sag (to aft) which will cause draft aft with the luff slightly off to leeward ..... "slowly" bring the jib sheet tension up to 'perfect' set (dont overload the sheet)... and the helmsman simply 'follows' the row of steering telltales on the jib ... and does whatever it takes to keep them streaming straight back (especially on the leeward side.) during the end of the tack. If the telltales arent streaming straight back, the sail is not at optimum. (Windward tales fluttering for pinching ... BOTH sides straight back for speed AND for power). Screwing around with mainsail luff tension and outhaul tension is very difficult during a tack because the conditions at the moment are so rapidly changing ... and there will be NO correct feedback from the telltales, etc. during the transition - thats why I for the most part simply ease the backstay to provide more mainsail draft, slightly crack off the traveller preset to the degrees off you want the traveller BEFORE you tack (slightly 'pre-ease' the vang to allow the upper part of the sail to gain slightly greater twist to meet correctly the angle of the wind higher up ... and to the correct angle that I determined/recorded during the detailed 'tune-up' phase long before the race starts). Sailboat races are a game of 'inches gained' on each maneuver, etc. if you gain more 'inches' than your competitors, you win. Yes indeed, you want to get the boat to accelerate and up to speed as rapidly as possible at the beginning of a leg; but conversely and just as important, also want to go as high as possible (even with less speed) at the END of a tack at the other end of a leg (to windward). An easily and rapidly adjustable backstay and traveller are the best/easiest controls for this. You have to consider that any sail tension adjustment made to any one side/edge of a sail ... ALWAYS needs TWO adjustments on the opposite sides/edges of the sail. Because sail material is (relatively) stretchY any adjustment of a single side/edge usually requires the 'other' two sides of a sail to be readjusted .... and you really dont have time for this *during* a tack, etc.; thats why the traveller/backstay are probably the best/easiest means of powering-up as it doesnt change the shape of the sail (much) yet gets all the vectors to move forward a bit. For what its worth, for LIGHT air sailing/racing, youll find that FLAT sails (probably the SAME set/shape as you will have at 15+kts.) will have better speed AND power .... LIGHT wind sailing is very subject to 'separation stalls' ... where the air streamlines become totally separated from the sail (unlike the more common stagnation, etc. etc. stall). If the sail has too much camber/draft such separations are easy .... but a full set of telltales will quickly (and the only visible means possible) indicate such a separation condition. Light winds = FLAT sails !!!!!!!!!
The fastest way to accelerate a fractional rigged boat out of a tack or at a start is to power-up by easing the backstay and allow the mast to straighten out bit which will iinduce slightly greater draft in the sail .... the entire sail. Simultaneously, slightly drop the traveller a few degrees to bring the CE slightly forward; if the apparent wind allows it as the slower the boat is going during a tack the higher the 'apparent wind angle' will be during the maneuver - the few degree differences of set can be estimated from your boats polars for different wind speeds. Easing the backstay will induce more draft into the mainsail and easing the mainsheet ever so slightly will open the leech slightly .... but I wouldnt change the luff tension, I'd very slightly ease the mainsheet to bring the 'second from the top' battens back to parallel to the boats centerline. (Easing the backstay will also make the battens 'cock to windward') follow the leech telltales with the mainsheet !!! Slacking the luff tension will do just the opposite of what you want for acceleration ...... easing luff tension will cause the luff to take on a flattened entry shape (speed shape), and change the balance of the helm !!!!!!!! Once the boat is set up prior to the race and you find the 'sweet spot' of helm pressure for the conditions, leave the halyard alone (unless the conditions so change during the race thay you notice a change in helm pressure). I find on most (relatively lightweight) fractional boats simply presetting a few degrees of traveler drop and easing the backstay is sufficient to 'power-up' for acceleration out of a tack. Easing the backstay will also help set up for a roll-tack and also allows the boat to heel over to better climb to weather/pinch at the END of the previous tack where such sailing much higher than normal really pays off in saving perhaps several boatlengths of distance on the NEXT leg. So playing the traveller and backstay can 'work' going into a tack as well as coming out of one. If youre already flying a FULL set of telltales: luff, leeches AND a row of steering tell tales on the jib ... then such an acceleration 'pre-setup' is easy during the 'tune-up' settings well prior to a race. Simply go through a few tacks and note the degradation of performance of the telltales coming out of the tack, make the corrections of backstay tensions and traveller position to find the 'optimum' for the conditions for the 'day' ... save those settings in mind and ease down immediately to those found settings before a tack .. then slowly return to the 'speed' setting as the boat goes through its acceleration on the other side of a tack. Obviously you will need well practiced helmsman, mainsheet trimmer and 'jibster' to be well coordinated to make all these changes 'smoothly' ... especially if you are roll-tacking the boat. (Watch that jib sheet tension as its all too common to overload the jib sheet which will cause the luff to be overloaded perpendicularly thus the jib luff 'induced' into a sag (to aft) which will cause draft aft with the luff slightly off to leeward ..... "slowly" bring the jib sheet tension up to 'perfect' set (dont overload the sheet)... and the helmsman simply 'follows' the row of steering telltales on the jib ... and does whatever it takes to keep them streaming straight back (especially on the leeward side.) during the end of the tack. If the telltales arent streaming straight back, the sail is not at optimum. (Windward tales fluttering for pinching ... BOTH sides straight back for speed AND for power). Screwing around with mainsail luff tension and outhaul tension is very difficult during a tack because the conditions at the moment are so rapidly changing ... and there will be NO correct feedback from the telltales, etc. during the transition - thats why I for the most part simply ease the backstay to provide more mainsail draft, slightly crack off the traveller preset to the degrees off you want the traveller BEFORE you tack (slightly 'pre-ease' the vang to allow the upper part of the sail to gain slightly greater twist to meet correctly the angle of the wind higher up ... and to the correct angle that I determined/recorded during the detailed 'tune-up' phase long before the race starts). Sailboat races are a game of 'inches gained' on each maneuver, etc. if you gain more 'inches' than your competitors, you win. Yes indeed, you want to get the boat to accelerate and up to speed as rapidly as possible at the beginning of a leg; but conversely and just as important, also want to go as high as possible (even with less speed) at the END of a tack at the other end of a leg (to windward). An easily and rapidly adjustable backstay and traveller are the best/easiest controls for this. You have to consider that any sail tension adjustment made to any one side/edge of a sail ... ALWAYS needs TWO adjustments on the opposite sides/edges of the sail. Because sail material is (relatively) stretchY any adjustment of a single side/edge usually requires the 'other' two sides of a sail to be readjusted .... and you really dont have time for this *during* a tack, etc.; thats why the traveller/backstay are probably the best/easiest means of powering-up as it doesnt change the shape of the sail (much) yet gets all the vectors to move forward a bit. For what its worth, for LIGHT air sailing/racing, youll find that FLAT sails (probably the SAME set/shape as you will have at 15+kts.) will have better speed AND power .... LIGHT wind sailing is very subject to 'separation stalls' ... where the air streamlines become totally separated from the sail (unlike the more common stagnation, etc. etc. stall). If the sail has too much camber/draft such separations are easy .... but a full set of telltales will quickly (and the only visible means possible) indicate such a separation condition. Light winds = FLAT sails !!!!!!!!!
Oops sorry
The H336 apparently has a B&R rig ... therefore the only part of the preceding post that would apply would be dropping (presetting the windward side) the traveller slightly, etc. coming out of a tack, until the boat is back up to full speed. If your boat is the one found at http://album.sailboatowners.com/detail?photo=4033 then from the visible evidence, I'd also relate that perhaps that you're not removing the mainsail luff boltrope 'preload' (by proper halyard tension) when raising the main. ... as I can see the leech too tight (slightly cupped to weather) and 'girts' wrinkles at 45deg. in the bottom section near the tack ... all symptomatic of a mainsail luff thats too slack and with too little halyard tension. The aft end of the boom also seems to be below the horizontal plane of the gooseneck ... also indicating a too loosely tensioned mainsail luff. The 'normal' preload for such a boltroped sail from a sailmaker when making such a sail would be about 1" shortneing of the luff boltrope for every 10-11 ft. of luff length. This 'preload' should be 'stretched-out' by approx. 4 inches additional halyard tensioning when sailing in 15-18 kts. (assuming ~40ft. of luff hoist). Without this extra stretch-out of the boltrope preload the boat will have a lot of 'weather-helm', will heel excessively, always be struggling to go 'fast' and simply will drift off to leeward when beating while having difficulty in letting the keel dynamically 'fly' which enhances 'climbing to weather' / pointing ability. If the mainsail is new and the sailmaker still has the construction records ... simply ask him/her how much *boltrope preload* did he/she design in for 15 kts. ... then simply stretch out that 'preload' when sailing in 15 kts. A good quick way to quickly arrive at proper tension in the boltrope luff and halyard tension is to set up as normal, then bring the boat to a hard beat and with the aft section of the 'second from the top batten' parallel to the boats centerline. Then with the boat being sailed/steered perfectly and on its max heel for the current wind, etc. conditions, go forward and crank on MORE halyard tension until the helm goes 'totally dead-fish NEUTRAL', once you find 'neutral helm' then slack off the halyard a bit until the boat 'slowly' turns to weather when the helm is released. At that point you can do all your other sail shaping corrections, etc. and be quite sure that you dont have any 'cross control' problems that would add drag, etc. Make all sail shaping adjustments while watching the tell-tales and the speedo. Of course this is just a quick analysis from one digital picture taken at an angle so please dont take any offense if my mere quick glance of your pic is in error. BTW -- The BEST articles on sail shape and trim ever written were by the 'originator' of the tuft / tell tale system (the person who 'debunked' the slot-effect and other widespread and still-in-vogue sail myths) ... Arvel Gentry a reknown aerodynamicist & sailor. Go to www.Arvelgentry.com .... look for the "magazine articles" section and look for "Are you at proper trim" and follow the next 4 listed articles in the sequence. The use of a full set "Gentry-Tufts" will insure that when you set and **shape** your sails for racing/beating that they will be 99.9% correct for the exact condiitions you happen to be sailing in at the time. hope this helps
The H336 apparently has a B&R rig ... therefore the only part of the preceding post that would apply would be dropping (presetting the windward side) the traveller slightly, etc. coming out of a tack, until the boat is back up to full speed. If your boat is the one found at http://album.sailboatowners.com/detail?photo=4033 then from the visible evidence, I'd also relate that perhaps that you're not removing the mainsail luff boltrope 'preload' (by proper halyard tension) when raising the main. ... as I can see the leech too tight (slightly cupped to weather) and 'girts' wrinkles at 45deg. in the bottom section near the tack ... all symptomatic of a mainsail luff thats too slack and with too little halyard tension. The aft end of the boom also seems to be below the horizontal plane of the gooseneck ... also indicating a too loosely tensioned mainsail luff. The 'normal' preload for such a boltroped sail from a sailmaker when making such a sail would be about 1" shortneing of the luff boltrope for every 10-11 ft. of luff length. This 'preload' should be 'stretched-out' by approx. 4 inches additional halyard tensioning when sailing in 15-18 kts. (assuming ~40ft. of luff hoist). Without this extra stretch-out of the boltrope preload the boat will have a lot of 'weather-helm', will heel excessively, always be struggling to go 'fast' and simply will drift off to leeward when beating while having difficulty in letting the keel dynamically 'fly' which enhances 'climbing to weather' / pointing ability. If the mainsail is new and the sailmaker still has the construction records ... simply ask him/her how much *boltrope preload* did he/she design in for 15 kts. ... then simply stretch out that 'preload' when sailing in 15 kts. A good quick way to quickly arrive at proper tension in the boltrope luff and halyard tension is to set up as normal, then bring the boat to a hard beat and with the aft section of the 'second from the top batten' parallel to the boats centerline. Then with the boat being sailed/steered perfectly and on its max heel for the current wind, etc. conditions, go forward and crank on MORE halyard tension until the helm goes 'totally dead-fish NEUTRAL', once you find 'neutral helm' then slack off the halyard a bit until the boat 'slowly' turns to weather when the helm is released. At that point you can do all your other sail shaping corrections, etc. and be quite sure that you dont have any 'cross control' problems that would add drag, etc. Make all sail shaping adjustments while watching the tell-tales and the speedo. Of course this is just a quick analysis from one digital picture taken at an angle so please dont take any offense if my mere quick glance of your pic is in error. BTW -- The BEST articles on sail shape and trim ever written were by the 'originator' of the tuft / tell tale system (the person who 'debunked' the slot-effect and other widespread and still-in-vogue sail myths) ... Arvel Gentry a reknown aerodynamicist & sailor. Go to www.Arvelgentry.com .... look for the "magazine articles" section and look for "Are you at proper trim" and follow the next 4 listed articles in the sequence. The use of a full set "Gentry-Tufts" will insure that when you set and **shape** your sails for racing/beating that they will be 99.9% correct for the exact condiitions you happen to be sailing in at the time. hope this helps
RichH thanks
For the in depth answer. And of course no offense taken. I dont presume to debate that which I am not knowledgable on. I do have to apologize a bit though. The pictures I posted were taken right after we bought the boat, our first sailboat almost four years ago, and we were complete novices. Now that we are advanced novices we are on our way. And funny you should mention Arvel Gentry. Just this afternoon I completed the book "the best of Sail Trim". Fascinating. I love how Arvel totally "busts" the slot myth. But as you can see my boat is a cruiser first although I was shocked the base PHRF is 144. I will try your experiment with bolt roap loading since we have a two day sail up to Newport for the Ensenada race. Our first time so we dont have high expectations but... darn it, I hate loosing. I feel alot more confident about getting the most out of my sails after reading that book in particular. Thanks again Rich.
For the in depth answer. And of course no offense taken. I dont presume to debate that which I am not knowledgable on. I do have to apologize a bit though. The pictures I posted were taken right after we bought the boat, our first sailboat almost four years ago, and we were complete novices. Now that we are advanced novices we are on our way. And funny you should mention Arvel Gentry. Just this afternoon I completed the book "the best of Sail Trim". Fascinating. I love how Arvel totally "busts" the slot myth. But as you can see my boat is a cruiser first although I was shocked the base PHRF is 144. I will try your experiment with bolt roap loading since we have a two day sail up to Newport for the Ensenada race. Our first time so we dont have high expectations but... darn it, I hate loosing. I feel alot more confident about getting the most out of my sails after reading that book in particular. Thanks again Rich.
- Status