I bought my sailboat with a approx. 6" diameter hole in the coaming behind the genoa winch, there used to be a cleat in that location but it was ripped right off. What is the easiest, long lasting fix for fixing this and yes I plan to mount the cleat in the same place. I have no previous experience using fiberglass. Here is a picture that might help.
Fiberglass Repair
- Thread starter Frenchie15864
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Go to your local chandlery and pick
up a copy of a fiberglass repair pamphlet that will illustrate to you exactly how to make that type of repair. 3M publishes them, but the best known are the Gougin Brothers instructionals. I think they're still around $3 or $4 apiece.
up a copy of a fiberglass repair pamphlet that will illustrate to you exactly how to make that type of repair. 3M publishes them, but the best known are the Gougin Brothers instructionals. I think they're still around $3 or $4 apiece.
Free literature
The book Joe is speaking about is available free at the West Systems web site by request. It is also viewable there online. Look under "Product Information" then "Request FREE Literature"
The book Joe is speaking about is available free at the West Systems web site by request. It is also viewable there online. Look under "Product Information" then "Request FREE Literature"
Check for collateral damage
A blow hard enough to make the hole you have may have weakened the structure elsewhere, so a thorough survey of the area by an experienced fiberglass expert is in order. David Lady Lillie
A blow hard enough to make the hole you have may have weakened the structure elsewhere, so a thorough survey of the area by an experienced fiberglass expert is in order. David Lady Lillie
A Little More Specific
Very likely the damage was done by too much force on the cleat. As such, other damage was probably not done, but you should still check. I would get a fairly substantial piece of treated lumber to back it up underneath. For example, a two by six cut so that it will overlap underneath by about three inches on each side or as much as possible. Carve it to fit. Run screws from the topside into the block to hold it into place. Build up the area from topside by filling in with fiberglass mat and resin. Back out the screw and fill the holes. When it is close to flush, cover the top with a couple of layers of fiberglass cloth and resin and sand flush. Finish with paint or gel coat. I would run the cleat screws all the way through the block as opposed to screwing into it.
Very likely the damage was done by too much force on the cleat. As such, other damage was probably not done, but you should still check. I would get a fairly substantial piece of treated lumber to back it up underneath. For example, a two by six cut so that it will overlap underneath by about three inches on each side or as much as possible. Carve it to fit. Run screws from the topside into the block to hold it into place. Build up the area from topside by filling in with fiberglass mat and resin. Back out the screw and fill the holes. When it is close to flush, cover the top with a couple of layers of fiberglass cloth and resin and sand flush. Finish with paint or gel coat. I would run the cleat screws all the way through the block as opposed to screwing into it.
One Other Comment
Clean up the ragged edges before you start so that it does not interfere with the repair. If the glass fiber is still there, I would try to leave as much as possible to aid in the repair.
Clean up the ragged edges before you start so that it does not interfere with the repair. If the glass fiber is still there, I would try to leave as much as possible to aid in the repair.
One More Idea
I always like to do a sandwich when I repair. I put a couple of layers of cloth on each side. The block was getting in my way in this case. The following method will be a little messy, but will be worth it. You will have to do this all fairly quickly so it does not dry before you finish. So plan ahead. Put two layers of cloth and resin on the wood so that they completely cover the area which contacts the boat. Put resin on the inside of the repair area of the boat. Screw the block into place. The glass on the top side may try to bulge up. Brush it down flush on the block. Cut the bulge areas with a sharp utility knife, if necessary, to make them lay down.
I always like to do a sandwich when I repair. I put a couple of layers of cloth on each side. The block was getting in my way in this case. The following method will be a little messy, but will be worth it. You will have to do this all fairly quickly so it does not dry before you finish. So plan ahead. Put two layers of cloth and resin on the wood so that they completely cover the area which contacts the boat. Put resin on the inside of the repair area of the boat. Screw the block into place. The glass on the top side may try to bulge up. Brush it down flush on the block. Cut the bulge areas with a sharp utility knife, if necessary, to make them lay down.
aircraft quality plywood
clean up the wound and remove all sharp or cracked areas before you do anything else. saturate the area with acetone (might be able to use a syringe to shoot into the surrounding area,and let dry thoroughly). make a template out of styrofoam, that just fits the underneath side of the wound, with a generous overlap of 4 inches or so. replicate the styrofoam template with aircraft quality plywood. wrap the ply wood in wax paper. use a heavy mat in a 2 or 3 layers that criss cross orientation of the weave. soak the layers enough to wet the cloth, but not drip everywhere. the trick is to keep pressure on the wax wood until the epoxy sets. it may be possible to install an eyebolt in the top of the wax board, through the layers of cloth. then attach a bungee cord to it and support it from above, through the original hole. (like ice fishing) once the resin is set, remove the eyebolt, and the wax paper covered wood. sand the area, to clean up big drips. epoxy coat the wood now without the wax paper and apply to the previous layers you just applied. you can use the same eyebolt to hold it. now, just glass over the wood below, and begin to fill in from above in overlapping layers, rotating the orientation of the weave. you do not need to use screws to hold the structure in place, the bolts on the cleat will do that. all of this in my opinion, but i have done this to a daysailor i had when i drove the pintles completely through the transom....now it is the strogest part of the boat.
clean up the wound and remove all sharp or cracked areas before you do anything else. saturate the area with acetone (might be able to use a syringe to shoot into the surrounding area,and let dry thoroughly). make a template out of styrofoam, that just fits the underneath side of the wound, with a generous overlap of 4 inches or so. replicate the styrofoam template with aircraft quality plywood. wrap the ply wood in wax paper. use a heavy mat in a 2 or 3 layers that criss cross orientation of the weave. soak the layers enough to wet the cloth, but not drip everywhere. the trick is to keep pressure on the wax wood until the epoxy sets. it may be possible to install an eyebolt in the top of the wax board, through the layers of cloth. then attach a bungee cord to it and support it from above, through the original hole. (like ice fishing) once the resin is set, remove the eyebolt, and the wax paper covered wood. sand the area, to clean up big drips. epoxy coat the wood now without the wax paper and apply to the previous layers you just applied. you can use the same eyebolt to hold it. now, just glass over the wood below, and begin to fill in from above in overlapping layers, rotating the orientation of the weave. you do not need to use screws to hold the structure in place, the bolts on the cleat will do that. all of this in my opinion, but i have done this to a daysailor i had when i drove the pintles completely through the transom....now it is the strogest part of the boat.
More Comments
Robert I have a question and a few comments about your detailed instructions. Why do you cover the wood with wax paper to protect the wood? Why not just leave the wood in place since you reattach it later? I considered plywood, but decided against it. A wood block is easier to shape to fit the contours of the boat. If the surface is flat, then it makes no difference. Since this will be a protected area, I am not sure aircraft quality plywood is necessary. I am not sure where I would get aircraft quality plywood. A 2 X 6 wood block will provide sufficient strength. The screws I use, were not intended to be left in. They would be used to hold the block in place, while the resin hardens. Holding the block up with an eye hook would probably be helpful while installing the screws so that someone does not have to work from underneath. Remove the screws prior to putting the fiberglass cloth on the outside to fill the holes. I would use screws all of the way through the block to attach the cleat. In general, and it might not make all any difference. It is just a habit. After over fifty years experience with fiberglass, I prefer glass cloth for strength. I use mat for filler and for areas where there will be a lot of abrasion.
Robert I have a question and a few comments about your detailed instructions. Why do you cover the wood with wax paper to protect the wood? Why not just leave the wood in place since you reattach it later? I considered plywood, but decided against it. A wood block is easier to shape to fit the contours of the boat. If the surface is flat, then it makes no difference. Since this will be a protected area, I am not sure aircraft quality plywood is necessary. I am not sure where I would get aircraft quality plywood. A 2 X 6 wood block will provide sufficient strength. The screws I use, were not intended to be left in. They would be used to hold the block in place, while the resin hardens. Holding the block up with an eye hook would probably be helpful while installing the screws so that someone does not have to work from underneath. Remove the screws prior to putting the fiberglass cloth on the outside to fill the holes. I would use screws all of the way through the block to attach the cleat. In general, and it might not make all any difference. It is just a habit. After over fifty years experience with fiberglass, I prefer glass cloth for strength. I use mat for filler and for areas where there will be a lot of abrasion.
Frenchie, My two cents worth - use epoxy resin, not polyester. Much nicer in terms of odors. I think epoxy is stronger. The West System with its pumps works very well for proper proportions. Worth the higher price. Get a box of latex gloves for yourself and use a couple of pairs at a time so you can peel off a layer when it gets too sticky and has clumps of glass on it. You might want to taper the edges of the existing glass around the hole so the bonding edge is wider. There will be less chance of cracking along the joint between the new patch and the old glass.
this is why i do it this way
aircraft type ply wood is available in hobbyshops. also, any grade of cabinet quality will do. the reason for ply is that it is much stronger, inch for inch, than lumber (no karate guy ever uses plywood for a demonstration) 3/8 to 1/2 will be stronger than a 2 x 4, depending on the grain. it also has orientation in many directions. the reason i do not like it to stick during the first go around, is that i like to clean and bevel edges so there are no voids in the layup when glassing in the wood and subsequent glass layers. it also gives a chance to bail on the operation if something goes afoul. i wouldn't want a botched job to include gouging out a couple of layers of glass and a 2 x 4 in order to start over. i would never use anything else but west system epoxy. i agree that strength comes from cloth, not mat....i start with something that gives stiffness as a platform to build on, then use progressively finer weave. remember, there is already a 6" hole in this area....it probably needs to be pretty strong. also, it will be easier to drill through the cleat from the top, rather than trying to hit the pattern from below. but everyone here has made good points.
aircraft type ply wood is available in hobbyshops. also, any grade of cabinet quality will do. the reason for ply is that it is much stronger, inch for inch, than lumber (no karate guy ever uses plywood for a demonstration) 3/8 to 1/2 will be stronger than a 2 x 4, depending on the grain. it also has orientation in many directions. the reason i do not like it to stick during the first go around, is that i like to clean and bevel edges so there are no voids in the layup when glassing in the wood and subsequent glass layers. it also gives a chance to bail on the operation if something goes afoul. i wouldn't want a botched job to include gouging out a couple of layers of glass and a 2 x 4 in order to start over. i would never use anything else but west system epoxy. i agree that strength comes from cloth, not mat....i start with something that gives stiffness as a platform to build on, then use progressively finer weave. remember, there is already a 6" hole in this area....it probably needs to be pretty strong. also, it will be easier to drill through the cleat from the top, rather than trying to hit the pattern from below. but everyone here has made good points.
any access from below?
imho, you will need to back this with a board or plate larger than the area ripped out. my thinking is the area you repair wont hold up to a winch on the same spot with out a much larger backing... maybe you could slide in a longer board and hold up w. screws? epoxy a board first then use a putty/epoxy and mat from below, then fill from above. you should also fair the hole several inches to help blend the mat. west system has several very good instr books. read all. the styrofoam form could work w. epoxy, but poly resin eats styrofoam... epoxy is much stronger anyway...
imho, you will need to back this with a board or plate larger than the area ripped out. my thinking is the area you repair wont hold up to a winch on the same spot with out a much larger backing... maybe you could slide in a longer board and hold up w. screws? epoxy a board first then use a putty/epoxy and mat from below, then fill from above. you should also fair the hole several inches to help blend the mat. west system has several very good instr books. read all. the styrofoam form could work w. epoxy, but poly resin eats styrofoam... epoxy is much stronger anyway...
A big Thank you to you all!!
Like I said in the subject line; thank you all. Reading about how you would repair this "opportunity" has given me confidence that I can do it. I think the only difference between Dan & Robert's methods are that they use different wood backing and that Robert adds another layer of fiberglass to totally enclose the plywood. I happen to have a cockpit locker on the same side (port? Starboard? – yeah I know what a rookie!!) and I think I can contort myself somehow in there. I still need to apply a chamfer on the top side on the clean-up edge of the hole, it will not be anything close to 12:1 chamfer that "they" promote since I would have to spill over onto the vertical surface of the coaming.
Like I said in the subject line; thank you all. Reading about how you would repair this "opportunity" has given me confidence that I can do it. I think the only difference between Dan & Robert's methods are that they use different wood backing and that Robert adds another layer of fiberglass to totally enclose the plywood. I happen to have a cockpit locker on the same side (port? Starboard? – yeah I know what a rookie!!) and I think I can contort myself somehow in there. I still need to apply a chamfer on the top side on the clean-up edge of the hole, it will not be anything close to 12:1 chamfer that "they" promote since I would have to spill over onto the vertical surface of the coaming.
More Comments
Robert My nearest hobby shop is probably a hundred miles away. I tend of think of how I would tackle a problem. As far being able to back out, there is a jell point in the resin/epoxy curing state where you can see the finished product, but it can be cut with a dull knife or knocked off. I would bypass the wax paper procedure. Also, I was not planning on encapsulating the board. I don't know whether it is necessary. It isn't something I normally do. My viewpoint is that even if the board falls off, which I doubt that it will, the repair is strong enough on its own rite. As far as using plywood goes, the two by six will be strong enough, but there is no problem using the plywood. Good discussion.
Robert My nearest hobby shop is probably a hundred miles away. I tend of think of how I would tackle a problem. As far being able to back out, there is a jell point in the resin/epoxy curing state where you can see the finished product, but it can be cut with a dull knife or knocked off. I would bypass the wax paper procedure. Also, I was not planning on encapsulating the board. I don't know whether it is necessary. It isn't something I normally do. My viewpoint is that even if the board falls off, which I doubt that it will, the repair is strong enough on its own rite. As far as using plywood goes, the two by six will be strong enough, but there is no problem using the plywood. Good discussion.
Additional Tip
Frenchie, I don't think anyone has said it yet, but if you want to, you can thicken resin with colloidal silica powder to make the mixture like peanut butter. This is helpful when bonding to an irregular surface. The filler is available at West Marine. It's like flour. With the thickened epoxy, you can spread it on top of the wood and press it into position. The gaps will fill nicely. You can also get colors to mix with the resin to color match. You still may want to chamfer the edges as much as you can without grinding away any vertical surfaces. I would definitely use a large backer board and screw into it from above. You can coat the board with epoxy (and let it cure) before assembly to waterproof it if you want. It's fun!
Frenchie, I don't think anyone has said it yet, but if you want to, you can thicken resin with colloidal silica powder to make the mixture like peanut butter. This is helpful when bonding to an irregular surface. The filler is available at West Marine. It's like flour. With the thickened epoxy, you can spread it on top of the wood and press it into position. The gaps will fill nicely. You can also get colors to mix with the resin to color match. You still may want to chamfer the edges as much as you can without grinding away any vertical surfaces. I would definitely use a large backer board and screw into it from above. You can coat the board with epoxy (and let it cure) before assembly to waterproof it if you want. It's fun!
Frenchie, First check thoroughly for other damage around the area, If it appears sound then you could proceed one of two ways. If you're going to bother using wood, why mess with resin and glass? Just use some marine grade plywood, 3/8-1/2" thick should work okay. Bed it under the coaming with 5200, extending maybe 8-10" out beyond the damage on both ends. Clamp it in nice and tight under the coaming with wedged in uprights so you get a good bond. Then cut a piece of teak long enough to cover the damage, bed it with a sealant of your choice around the damage(not 5200 here), center it over the damage, and put a little weight on it until it cures. Drill out for your cleat and thru bolt it with large stainless washers. Repeat on the other side to prevent damage from happening and give a finished look. Or, you could get the Gougen book, use some West epoxy, follow the instructions and teach yourself how to do it. Sorry for the sarcasm earlier and no disrespect meant to the other respondants. If you choose to glass it you'll need a 4" grinder and some 50 or 60 grit discs and some self confidence in your abilities and you should be fine. If you need further info or help feel free to e-mail me off line, I'd be glad to help.
One last Concern
Guys, Regardless of the type of wood one uses, it will become very difficult in judging the exact width of the solid backing insert since "we" will drape 2 to 3 layers of fiberglass cloth and roving creating extra width to the insert. Could I just do like Robert sugested but have on the inside of the boat the insert and then layers of fiberglass/roving to trap the insert and then do the appropriate lay-up on the top-side?
Guys, Regardless of the type of wood one uses, it will become very difficult in judging the exact width of the solid backing insert since "we" will drape 2 to 3 layers of fiberglass cloth and roving creating extra width to the insert. Could I just do like Robert sugested but have on the inside of the boat the insert and then layers of fiberglass/roving to trap the insert and then do the appropriate lay-up on the top-side?
all you need
all you need in your schematic is the cleat and your good to go. the thickener mentioned in an earlier post is good stuff. it used to be called micro-balloons...i bought some about 15 years ago and still have a bunch left. what is so good about it is that it sands easily and you can clean up the initial area so you can get a good finish layup. i agree....good discussion....all opinions interesting. good luck....frenchie, post some pictures when you tackle this.
all you need in your schematic is the cleat and your good to go. the thickener mentioned in an earlier post is good stuff. it used to be called micro-balloons...i bought some about 15 years ago and still have a bunch left. what is so good about it is that it sands easily and you can clean up the initial area so you can get a good finish layup. i agree....good discussion....all opinions interesting. good luck....frenchie, post some pictures when you tackle this.
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