Faster with stall?

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Quoddy

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Apr 1, 2009
241
Hunter 260 Maine
I’m going up wind with main and 110 jib. All main telltales flying, so twist and angle of attack seem right. I sheet in on the main quite a bit, but not too much and my speed goes up and my VMG to an upwind point goes up, this is good. Then I look out from under the bimini and all the main telltales are fluttering around the back of the sail which means I should ease. If I do I slow down. Any ideas? More info, centerboard boat, neutral helm and about 5-10 heel.
 
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May 24, 2004
7,164
CC 30 South Florida
Definitely getting close to a stall which could be triggered by failure to react fast enough to a shift in wind direction. Recovering from a stall may take more time and effort than a small loss in speed would impact towrds reaching a mark.
 
Dec 4, 2008
264
Other people's boats - Milford, CT
Quoddy,

I don't think that you were really stalled, but at maximum lift. Stall of an airfoil is not a binary on/off condition. Before the sail actually stalls, it will begin to have some indications that look like it as the air is producing maximum lift. Having the leech tell-tales flicking forward about half the time ( on the upper parts of the sail ) is about my standard fast mode upwind. But every boat/sail seems to have it's own indications of the fastest trim. Watch the speed-o-meter and tweak the sail until you are fastest. Remember that sail shape and tell-tales for next time in those conditions and go right back there.

Toad
 
May 17, 2004
2,110
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Quoddy: Here's what I think has happened and I'm sitting 3000 miles away trying to figure out what actually did happen!!

This is the first thing that came to my mind when I read your message so I have to go with it. As you cranked in on the mainsheet and probably the traveler, you increased the angle of attack and were stepping on the accelerator. There is only so much speed you can get out of a sailboat -- they're not designred to beat the land/sea speed record.

The principle is called "trimming to a point of draw". You trim in until the luff ripples or the telltales start to react and then you slightly ease out. You're now at the MAX POWER setting for your boat. What I think happened was you went past "the max point of draw" and when you checked the telltales that's what they were telling you. You're only recourse was to ease out until the telltales started to flow. If you didn't or kept on cranking in you'd have stalled the sail.

Adjusting sails is like adjusting the jets on a carb they used to have in cars (when you could adjust them). You've got to wait a minute for the adjustment to kick in. Same with adjusting your bathroom shower from cold to hot. It doesn't happen instantly.

When you went to far, you waited a minute to check the telltales and the hot water (stall) was kicking in.

Here's your lesson assigment. Try to duplicate the situation the next time you're on the water and see what happens. First, keep cranking in or just leave things as they are with the telltales flooping all over the place. The speed will drop off. Next, ease off slightly and get them flowing and see what happens to your speed. Report your results to us.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Try this senario on for size as it may have been what you were doing.

Birds that soar for a living, hawks, many seabirds and vultures, etc., can sometime be seen 'flicking' their wings during a shallow dive in low windspeed conditions ... typically at dusk; and, these birds seem to be gaining a lot of lift when just the primary feathters - the long feathers at the wingtips - are being 'flicked'.
This a very illegal by the racing rules - "means of propulsion by fair use of sails, etc. etc. and was a means of propulsion developed in the past by the large light weight super-fast planing hull classes called 'ooching' - Prohibited during racing. Prohibited but seen ALL THE TIME especially before 'roll tacking' to build speed at a much higher sailing angle. The technique is still allowed to be performed only once .... if more than one "ooch" is performed: instant disqualification.

Here's how to do it (sounds very similar to what you did), theres more to 'ooching' but here is what is done to the sails during an 'ooching' maneuver:
1. From a perfect set up ...... tale tales flying perfect, etc. ..... bear off slightly, just a few degrees to help build speed
2. Pull in the mainsheet hard - increases sail camber by hooking up the leech to windward ... which builds the 'potential energy' in the sail, the leech tell tales on main will point forward on the lee side. Momentum of the boat continues it forwards but now with deep draft (hi power and lift) because of the increased overall camber due to the 'hardened' or over-tensioned mainsheet.
3. Simultaneously, or at max. speed, steer slightly to windward and beyond the original 'perfect' course while the boat heels over .... ease off and bear off slightly at the 'top' of the maneuver ..... the boat will now be 'coasting' faster, the higher sailing angle at greater boat speed will allow the boat to move new position that will be slightly to windward (gain in windward position).

the illegal part begins when you do this in repetitive/successive moves and includes slightly releasing main sheet so that the mainsail leech alternately goes several feet to leeward .... and you start ooching all over again. You now keep up the slow 'pumping sequence' of releasing and tightening up the mainsheet as you coordinate the steering changes .... and with a planing hull that is 'just below' planing speed you will easily break onto a plane and with a higher sailing angle. You now are "flicking" your primary feathers (leech) just like those soaring birds do to keep up the 'lift'.
With planing hull sport boats in 'light' conditions, you can sometimes 'double' your speed while getting up onto a plane when closehauled ... which then maintains the higher boat speed than if you just 'sit there' and 'diddle' with sail trim, etc. ... and those who dont do this are left in your turbulence wake. The extra energy comes from the muscle power (potential energy) of the mainsheet handler which converts into kinetic energy applied to the mainsail ... and is thus not a 'fair' means of boat propulsion. Racing rules permit ONE ooch per tack; do it more than once and you get an instant DSQ in those fleets who know what is going on with 'ooching'.

When not racing, timed repetitive and successive 'ooching' is a damn good means of increasing boat speed to artificially increase and gain apparent wind in those be-deviling 'light wind' conditions.
From what you described, you may have been 'ooching' your boat.

;-)
 
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Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,175
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
You're navigational vmg isn't going to tell you anything about sail trim.

Did you actually slow down.... or did you think you might slow down because you had just pulled the sail in?

When the heasail's leeward luff telltale stalls....... that's one thing. Flickering mainsail leech telltales does not necessarily mean the main is stalling..... you are losing attached flow at the leech, yes, but that may be because the draft needs adjusting... remember as the boat picks up speed, you need to flatten the sails.
 
Dec 2, 2003
1,637
Hunter 376 Warsash, England --
Stall separation does not occur completely over the whole of outer surface of an aerofoil unless really seriously stalled.
I have tell tales in mid chord in 3 places up my mainsail. It is quite normal to see the leach ones curling back behind the sail but the mid chord ones are saying everything is just fine where they are.
Nobody can tell whether you get more or less lift in your situation with a small amount of separation just at the leach.
If it works then your gut feeling is probably correct.
 

Quoddy

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Apr 1, 2009
241
Hunter 260 Maine
Trim mystery thanks

Thanks for all the great ideas on what to fool around with. I surely will be doing so next time out.
 
May 17, 2004
2,110
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Re: Trim mystery thanks

Quoddy: Did you get a chance to go sailing this weekend and have an opportunity to check out the ideas you were given?

Maybe the weather worked against you -- when I lived in RI, during the summer, I always looked forward to the weekend and Scarbough Beach (spell check??). Sadly, it always seemed to rain most weekends!!
 
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