On Monday I retrieved our 1979 37 cutter Good News from the yard and got a bill that was more than double the original estimate, and a very nasty surprise. I learned a few things about projects which most of you already know, but I share for the potential benefit to new owners. Mostly it was about monitoring changes, and good communications. The quality of the mechanical work was excellent, but the accountability (and accounting) was lousy. I had the boat in the yard for a fine-tuning of the rig, installation of a new battery charger, repair of the oil pressure sender, repair the wind gauge, repair a stiff throttle and gear shift levers/cables, a spot weld on one stanchion, repairing another stanchion (which I had removed) and replacement of impellers and belts on the engine. I had the yard do the work because I did not have time. The work was supposed to be done in one week. I told them I was not in a hurry and it took three weeks. That was my fault. So: 1. Make sure the original estimates are precise as possible, and clear, and the agreements about any changes even more so. I rejected the initial project estimate as too vague, but still was surprised at the lack of detail. Until I rejected it the "final" bill had all labor for all work lumped together with no details. 2. Be present if possible. (It wasn't.) Do not assume the yard manager will manage the project the way you want if you don't stay in constant touch. 3. If they don't call you, call them. Insist on detailed reports of what is going on. Even when I called, it was too vague for comfort. The manager was rarely available and sometimes it took days to hear back. 4. If you have a limit on what you are willing to pay for a fix, make it very clear. I told the yard to fix the stanchions only if the welding was less than the cost of a new stanchion. I made a mistake and mentioned my labor when I took off a stanchion, so manager assumed it was okay to "save my labor." The initial bill included over six hours of labor for spot welding two stanchions. more than triple the cost of replacements It was adjusted after I protested. 5. When you approve any additional work, get an estimate and a report of what is involved. I approved more work on engine cables (replace instead of repair) but the resulting cost was a surprise. 6. The bill will have errors. In my case, more than $300 was because of their bad accounting. Check the math. Insist on adjustments. They found two hours of labor (at $80 ea) were a clerical mistake. 7. Go over the work with the people who did it. That was a good part of this experience, because the yard manager set it up for each person to go over details with me. The electrician gave me a crash course in managing power. And the mechanic adjusted the packing glands, and put a preventative patch on the muffler, which had been overlooked. 8. Check everything. I discovered one mechanic had checked the wrong instrument, and I was billed for an hour of labor for his mistake and no work. That came off the bill. 9. Good mechanics are prevention-minded. The engine guy spotted two problems (the muffler was improperly installed and the throttle cable was resting on the manifold and gradually burning) and fixed them both. I was glad to pay for that extra work. Finally, you guys were right: I should have done some of this work myself, and will in the future. I could have saved a lot of money (and kept my blood pressure down) and learned much in the process. I also came away feeling I would might been better off to find individual quality workmen, deal with them directly at the dock, and avoided the yard doing multiple projects. I might use the yard again because their people are good, but I would be much more cautious and demanding. Consider me older, wiser and poorer. But I learned. FYI San Francisco boatyards have a general reputation for charging high, and sloppy accounting. I did not find that to be the case in San Diego, but I am sure it depends who you deal with. Any thoughts or questions about this experience? Any good stories, or horror stories to make me feel better? Sanders Good News
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San Francisco
Being that I have to utilize San Francisco yards... I would ike to know which yard provided you with this educational opportunity. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Being that I have to utilize San Francisco yards... I would ike to know which yard provided you with this educational opportunity. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
NOT Good News.
Sanders: I have also had some bad experiences with boat yards too. It is usually best to go slow with them and let them prove themselves with some smaller jobs (if you have the endurance). I found out that the problem with welding on stainless was not the cost of the welding, but the cost of buffing/polishing it out. I got a quote from Swens in the bay for $2000 to put stern seats on my H'31. This is not a lesson in life but a lesson in boatyard ethics (they have none). We have a yard in the delta (Waltons). They do good work and seem to hold to their prices. We had them do our compression post and they came in on bid. I had them do a couple of other items not on the original quote and they were not out of line. Some of the items that you had them do are real time consuming (cable replacement) and these are sometimes better to have one of your local boater friends help you with. It is more monkey work than anything else. What was the original quote and what was the final bill. I would also like to know who did this so I can Sail the other way.
Sanders: I have also had some bad experiences with boat yards too. It is usually best to go slow with them and let them prove themselves with some smaller jobs (if you have the endurance). I found out that the problem with welding on stainless was not the cost of the welding, but the cost of buffing/polishing it out. I got a quote from Swens in the bay for $2000 to put stern seats on my H'31. This is not a lesson in life but a lesson in boatyard ethics (they have none). We have a yard in the delta (Waltons). They do good work and seem to hold to their prices. We had them do our compression post and they came in on bid. I had them do a couple of other items not on the original quote and they were not out of line. Some of the items that you had them do are real time consuming (cable replacement) and these are sometimes better to have one of your local boater friends help you with. It is more monkey work than anything else. What was the original quote and what was the final bill. I would also like to know who did this so I can Sail the other way.
#3 on the "who" list
Along with Steve and Dan, I would like to know which yard I should tack away from... Forums like this should be used to make it for those who do good work and break it for those that don't.....
Along with Steve and Dan, I would like to know which yard I should tack away from... Forums like this should be used to make it for those who do good work and break it for those that don't.....
Detail you requested, with a caveat
My point wasn't that anyone should avoid this particular yard, but make sure you know what you need to do to control a project, advice which seems applicable to any yard. I like Steve's advice about taking jobs in small bites, and avoiding multiple issues. The original bid was slightly under $1,500. I was warned and understood that if the inspections revealed problems (which they did) the costs would go up. It was just much higher than I ever anticipated and I did not feel adequately kept up to date. I felt it might run $2,000 or so. The final bill was slightly over $3,500, most of that went for recabling both throttle and transmission, and the engine work -- all labor intensive. I have no doubt that the work was done -- once we resolved the questions I had and adjustments were made -- and the quality of the work seemed excellent, but I felt like a person who has paid a premium. The work was done at KKMI in Richmond. It's a world class yard, rightly famous for restorations and racing sleds, but I am not sure that folks with older boats such as ours, owned by people on budgets, might not do better to shop around. I'm still learning. Much of that overrun costs went to correct problems they uncovered (cables needed replacing, not repair, the muffler was not in the proper place, the binnacle needed a stop plate) which would have created more problems later. So I paid for that preventive expertise too. I want to be fair and note that I believe the workmanship was excellent. I am undecided if I would go back or not. The yard came highly recommended, with the warning they are expensive (like some others in the Bay, and some in San Diego and in P.V.). If I was more concerned with quality than with costs, I wouldn't hestitate to use them. I look for a balance, but my wife says I am cheap. (I also paid a premium last year to the local Yanmar dealer for a routine serve job, because I requested the mechanic take the time to teach me, which he did. It was worth it.) I consider this to be partly my responsibility. I liked the people, and I was not demanding enough in terms of reports on what was happening. It was, as I said, a learning experience and I wanted to share what I would have done differently. After discussing the work with the mechanics, and the billing details with the manager, my blood pressure dropped significantly. They knew I was unhappy and were responded to my concerns. That is to their credit. S.
My point wasn't that anyone should avoid this particular yard, but make sure you know what you need to do to control a project, advice which seems applicable to any yard. I like Steve's advice about taking jobs in small bites, and avoiding multiple issues. The original bid was slightly under $1,500. I was warned and understood that if the inspections revealed problems (which they did) the costs would go up. It was just much higher than I ever anticipated and I did not feel adequately kept up to date. I felt it might run $2,000 or so. The final bill was slightly over $3,500, most of that went for recabling both throttle and transmission, and the engine work -- all labor intensive. I have no doubt that the work was done -- once we resolved the questions I had and adjustments were made -- and the quality of the work seemed excellent, but I felt like a person who has paid a premium. The work was done at KKMI in Richmond. It's a world class yard, rightly famous for restorations and racing sleds, but I am not sure that folks with older boats such as ours, owned by people on budgets, might not do better to shop around. I'm still learning. Much of that overrun costs went to correct problems they uncovered (cables needed replacing, not repair, the muffler was not in the proper place, the binnacle needed a stop plate) which would have created more problems later. So I paid for that preventive expertise too. I want to be fair and note that I believe the workmanship was excellent. I am undecided if I would go back or not. The yard came highly recommended, with the warning they are expensive (like some others in the Bay, and some in San Diego and in P.V.). If I was more concerned with quality than with costs, I wouldn't hestitate to use them. I look for a balance, but my wife says I am cheap. (I also paid a premium last year to the local Yanmar dealer for a routine serve job, because I requested the mechanic take the time to teach me, which he did. It was worth it.) I consider this to be partly my responsibility. I liked the people, and I was not demanding enough in terms of reports on what was happening. It was, as I said, a learning experience and I wanted to share what I would have done differently. After discussing the work with the mechanics, and the billing details with the manager, my blood pressure dropped significantly. They knew I was unhappy and were responded to my concerns. That is to their credit. S.
Yanmar lesson in self-sufficiency
Last year, I ruined the head of one of the bolts on the raw water pump bracket. Reluctant to mess with it, and freely admitting to having no mechanic skills (other virtues
, I asked the boatyard at my marina to replace the bolt. Cost of the bolt $7; cost of the labor $70. Lesson learned, I got on the web and looked for a class on Yanmar engine maintenance. Found one given at Mack Boring by Engine City Technical Institure (3 branches, all in the East, see www.mackboring.com). Took the 3-day class a couple of weeks ago. Now I am on the road to self-sufficiency with regard to simple service and maintenance tasks. No longer intimidated by all the moving parts, fluids and wires, I feel legitimately empowered to give my 3GMF her due in preventive maintenance and minor adjustments and repairs. Don't mean to suggest the class transforms a novice into a veteran mechanic. One of the things gained in the class was a more informed respect of where the line is drawn between what I should attempt to do, and what I should leave to a real certified mechanic. That said, another of the learnings is that diesel engines are manageably straightforward, for someone who wants to learn. I highly recommend this class to anyone. It's not too expensive (~$600). There are working engines of half a dozen Yanmar models for the ~12 hours of hands-on. The materials provided and other course content is excellent. And the page full of questions I arrived at the class with, were all answered.
Last year, I ruined the head of one of the bolts on the raw water pump bracket. Reluctant to mess with it, and freely admitting to having no mechanic skills (other virtues
, I asked the boatyard at my marina to replace the bolt. Cost of the bolt $7; cost of the labor $70. Lesson learned, I got on the web and looked for a class on Yanmar engine maintenance. Found one given at Mack Boring by Engine City Technical Institure (3 branches, all in the East, see www.mackboring.com). Took the 3-day class a couple of weeks ago. Now I am on the road to self-sufficiency with regard to simple service and maintenance tasks. No longer intimidated by all the moving parts, fluids and wires, I feel legitimately empowered to give my 3GMF her due in preventive maintenance and minor adjustments and repairs. Don't mean to suggest the class transforms a novice into a veteran mechanic. One of the things gained in the class was a more informed respect of where the line is drawn between what I should attempt to do, and what I should leave to a real certified mechanic. That said, another of the learnings is that diesel engines are manageably straightforward, for someone who wants to learn. I highly recommend this class to anyone. It's not too expensive (~$600). There are working engines of half a dozen Yanmar models for the ~12 hours of hands-on. The materials provided and other course content is excellent. And the page full of questions I arrived at the class with, were all answered.Advantage of being poor.
One advantage of being poor and cheap is no surprises like that. Spent yesterday at the boat after shoveling a path from the car, first 40 degree day in two months. Reinstalled the starter after new brushes and a test. Installed with added solenoid to overcome lack of current to starter solenoid. Total cost about $50. Started the installation of new A/B refrig after removal of old 110v AC compressor and coldplate. Also added a fourth battery and began the hookup of the new Link2000 monitor. Can you imagine what these projects would cost if I had someone do it?! Time? Only things that have to be done to float the boat are the bottom-paint and a good hull waxing. Everything else can be done at the slip or anchored in the islands.
One advantage of being poor and cheap is no surprises like that. Spent yesterday at the boat after shoveling a path from the car, first 40 degree day in two months. Reinstalled the starter after new brushes and a test. Installed with added solenoid to overcome lack of current to starter solenoid. Total cost about $50. Started the installation of new A/B refrig after removal of old 110v AC compressor and coldplate. Also added a fourth battery and began the hookup of the new Link2000 monitor. Can you imagine what these projects would cost if I had someone do it?! Time? Only things that have to be done to float the boat are the bottom-paint and a good hull waxing. Everything else can be done at the slip or anchored in the islands.
another lesson learned....
I now keep a can of the recently (recent to me) developed "nut buster" with me at all times. It is available at all auto parts stores and reallyh works (much better than wd 40 and liquid wrench). I also will carefully use heat in the female end of whatever I am trying to remove. It works wonders. I was amazed that the physics of expansion can work to one's adavantage.
I now keep a can of the recently (recent to me) developed "nut buster" with me at all times. It is available at all auto parts stores and reallyh works (much better than wd 40 and liquid wrench). I also will carefully use heat in the female end of whatever I am trying to remove. It works wonders. I was amazed that the physics of expansion can work to one's adavantage.
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