I bought a 24' S2 from this friendly old guy and when I got it home and washed it, I can now see a repair down the lower starboard side about 14' x 2' (huge). He told me "this boat has never had any hull damage". Ok, so I bought it on trust, no survey, I take responsibility for my decision, that's fine . . but. Now he calls me and says that one of the sails that were in the boat, was not part of the deal, and says he knows nothing about the repair. I would have considered his request, had there been no damage, but I'm thinking the sail is mine, he lied and sold me what is basically a boat with a damage history and therefore has diminished value, but I would like some input. Thanks to all.
Ethical question, re buying a boat
- Thread starter earthtravel
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You relinquished your right to a survey before
the purchase was concluded but it seems your friendly seller missed his opportunity to remove anything that was not included by that time. The boat and the sail are ethically and legally yours.
the purchase was concluded but it seems your friendly seller missed his opportunity to remove anything that was not included by that time. The boat and the sail are ethically and legally yours.
What sail? Have you seen a sail ? I haven't seen a sail.
What repair? Have you seen a hull repair? Who would repair an undamaged boat? Is the boat still a usable vessel? Tell the guy to look around maybe the sail is mixed in with the tools and stuff that were used for making the repairs.
What repair? Have you seen a hull repair? Who would repair an undamaged boat? Is the boat still a usable vessel? Tell the guy to look around maybe the sail is mixed in with the tools and stuff that were used for making the repairs.
the fundamental problem is
to put it in your words, "Ok, so I bought it, no survey, that's fine". Too bad but hopefully it isn't too expensive a lesson. Surevys are the wisest cost you can incur when buying a boat. Assuming the damage is that significant and obvious, how could the previous owner NOT know about it?
to put it in your words, "Ok, so I bought it, no survey, that's fine". Too bad but hopefully it isn't too expensive a lesson. Surevys are the wisest cost you can incur when buying a boat. Assuming the damage is that significant and obvious, how could the previous owner NOT know about it?
More details
The boat is functionally fine, I can live with the deal, but the alleged sail, sure eases the disappointment of finding it had such a large repair. How did I miss it? It was on the lower part of the hull and had been moored for a couple of years and was dirty. I found it during a hull cleaning. I want to know how he could not know about it, he owned for 9 years per the title (I've owned it for 4 days and am already blogging about it)
The boat is functionally fine, I can live with the deal, but the alleged sail, sure eases the disappointment of finding it had such a large repair. How did I miss it? It was on the lower part of the hull and had been moored for a couple of years and was dirty. I found it during a hull cleaning. I want to know how he could not know about it, he owned for 9 years per the title (I've owned it for 4 days and am already blogging about it)
Hi Russell, normally buying a used boat is basically...
where is as is and buyer beware. The sail technically belongs to you, but if it were me I ask him to make an offer depending whether you wanted to keep it. On the other hand you could gift him the sail on the condition of full hull disclosure. Terry
where is as is and buyer beware. The sail technically belongs to you, but if it were me I ask him to make an offer depending whether you wanted to keep it. On the other hand you could gift him the sail on the condition of full hull disclosure. Terry
Ethics.... In this world today, I would only trust my wife.
Ethics are an assumed value that we use. Since most of this world is based on law, people take the law to the limit. I admire people that stand by their word and not the contract. They honor an agreement above a contract. I do most of my work this way. It is much more costly to do a shaby job and fight it than to do what is right and be honorable. I am sorry if you ran into someone that is not on the up and up. However, you agreed to buy the boat as is. Most boat owners know nothing about boat and that is how they get so run down. You need to work out if the sail was included. Anger is a devastating thing. It will destroy you first, as you attack the other party.You can let it go and deal with what you have or you can be angry for the next year trying to fight him.I would just let it go, buy what you need and enjoy the boat. We have to make many choices. Some choices help us to learn. Remember that the choices we made are the choices we made. We have a hard time being angry at ourselves. You can be angry or you can move on. just something to think about... Offer him the whole boat with the sail back. Hope thing work out for you! r.w.landau
Ethics are an assumed value that we use. Since most of this world is based on law, people take the law to the limit. I admire people that stand by their word and not the contract. They honor an agreement above a contract. I do most of my work this way. It is much more costly to do a shaby job and fight it than to do what is right and be honorable. I am sorry if you ran into someone that is not on the up and up. However, you agreed to buy the boat as is. Most boat owners know nothing about boat and that is how they get so run down. You need to work out if the sail was included. Anger is a devastating thing. It will destroy you first, as you attack the other party.You can let it go and deal with what you have or you can be angry for the next year trying to fight him.I would just let it go, buy what you need and enjoy the boat. We have to make many choices. Some choices help us to learn. Remember that the choices we made are the choices we made. We have a hard time being angry at ourselves. You can be angry or you can move on. just something to think about... Offer him the whole boat with the sail back. Hope thing work out for you! r.w.landau
Earth traveling Russel,, Crawl inside this boat and look at the inside
of the damaged area. The damage may have been cosmetic or structrual. I live with the idea that boats can be repaired to as good as new with some resin,glass cloth and time/labor. There are others here that don't share my views but I can live with that. Make certain that the repairs are that and not just fixes. After I bought Bietzpadlin and had been working on her for a couple of years the exterior grade vinyl house spackle began to fall out of a hole near the bow. Someone, sometime, somewhere had run the boat into something hard and knocked a hole in the bow up near deck level. It took a couple of hours to grind out the damage and lay in new glass and resin. I found many such dings.
of the damaged area. The damage may have been cosmetic or structrual. I live with the idea that boats can be repaired to as good as new with some resin,glass cloth and time/labor. There are others here that don't share my views but I can live with that. Make certain that the repairs are that and not just fixes. After I bought Bietzpadlin and had been working on her for a couple of years the exterior grade vinyl house spackle began to fall out of a hole near the bow. Someone, sometime, somewhere had run the boat into something hard and knocked a hole in the bow up near deck level. It took a couple of hours to grind out the damage and lay in new glass and resin. I found many such dings.
Had there been no damage...
would you have been willing to return the sail? If so, it's up to you to hold to your standards or respond based on his standards.
would you have been willing to return the sail? If so, it's up to you to hold to your standards or respond based on his standards.
Had he been honest...
I would have returned the sail. But now, its his tough luck. You bought the boat and he sold the boat "as is". Well, to me "as is" means everything on the boat and not anything that might be forgotten by either you or him. As for the idea of "gifting him the sail on the condition of full hull disclosure", that would be out of the question. He then would have been rewarded for f*****g you and even at that, what guarantee will there be that he dont lie again. I would consider the whole thing as a dead issue. The boat is yours, you paid for it, now go on and do whatever it takes to get it up to snuff. BTW, where are you located and where was the boat purchased? Tony B
I would have returned the sail. But now, its his tough luck. You bought the boat and he sold the boat "as is". Well, to me "as is" means everything on the boat and not anything that might be forgotten by either you or him. As for the idea of "gifting him the sail on the condition of full hull disclosure", that would be out of the question. He then would have been rewarded for f*****g you and even at that, what guarantee will there be that he dont lie again. I would consider the whole thing as a dead issue. The boat is yours, you paid for it, now go on and do whatever it takes to get it up to snuff. BTW, where are you located and where was the boat purchased? Tony B
Part of the Inventory
I would also opine that the unobserved hull damage (hope it was a good repair job and that the structural integrety is sound) and the sail are two separate items. Is the sail fitted for the boat you bought? Is it in good condition that might have helped you decide to make the boat purchase since you knew that you probably wouldn't need new sails for quite a few years? Was the sail on board the boat, or shown to you, when you made your pre-purchase inspection? If these, or any one of many more situations apply, and unless the sail was specifically excluded from the purchase, there would be nothing unethical about standing firm that the sail is in the category of normal inventory of boat items that are transferred from buyer to seller. A portion of the agreed price is the value of the sail. Very often boats are sold with several sails included. They're part of the purchase. Same with spare parts for the engine that the owner may have purchased but never used but were left on the boat. Or the new winches that a seller might have installed a couple of years ago. Or an old replaced halyard that was left on board that you now can use for a clothesline in your back yard. Or the fire extinguisher. He can't claim any of these back. Anything that is consistent with the normal equipment of a boat that is not excluded in the agreement are now yours. (I would say the same would apply to personal property that a seller just found it easier to leave on board. Cleaning supplies. Nautical charts. An old rusty tool kit. Life vests. But if the boat was cleared of obvious personal property and you later found on board (say) the seller's clarinet that he overlooked, then that should be returned, no strings attached.) I'm curious, why does the seller want the sail back? If (say) the sail doesn't fit on your 24' boat, but instead is a 130% Genoa that fits on the seller's (say) 46' cruiser, its likely that the seller did not intend the sail to be part of your transaction. But as above, if you had placed value on the sail (as you expected it to fit on your boat) then you would be within your rights to insist that the seller make a reasonable refund to you for the return. If the seller wants the sail back to sell it on eBay, you'll probably have your own appropriate response to him.
I would also opine that the unobserved hull damage (hope it was a good repair job and that the structural integrety is sound) and the sail are two separate items. Is the sail fitted for the boat you bought? Is it in good condition that might have helped you decide to make the boat purchase since you knew that you probably wouldn't need new sails for quite a few years? Was the sail on board the boat, or shown to you, when you made your pre-purchase inspection? If these, or any one of many more situations apply, and unless the sail was specifically excluded from the purchase, there would be nothing unethical about standing firm that the sail is in the category of normal inventory of boat items that are transferred from buyer to seller. A portion of the agreed price is the value of the sail. Very often boats are sold with several sails included. They're part of the purchase. Same with spare parts for the engine that the owner may have purchased but never used but were left on the boat. Or the new winches that a seller might have installed a couple of years ago. Or an old replaced halyard that was left on board that you now can use for a clothesline in your back yard. Or the fire extinguisher. He can't claim any of these back. Anything that is consistent with the normal equipment of a boat that is not excluded in the agreement are now yours. (I would say the same would apply to personal property that a seller just found it easier to leave on board. Cleaning supplies. Nautical charts. An old rusty tool kit. Life vests. But if the boat was cleared of obvious personal property and you later found on board (say) the seller's clarinet that he overlooked, then that should be returned, no strings attached.) I'm curious, why does the seller want the sail back? If (say) the sail doesn't fit on your 24' boat, but instead is a 130% Genoa that fits on the seller's (say) 46' cruiser, its likely that the seller did not intend the sail to be part of your transaction. But as above, if you had placed value on the sail (as you expected it to fit on your boat) then you would be within your rights to insist that the seller make a reasonable refund to you for the return. If the seller wants the sail back to sell it on eBay, you'll probably have your own appropriate response to him.
Inventory
That's the weird part, we took inventory of the sails (in bags, and I just peeked in to make sure they weren't rotted). He said here's a main, and another main, and another main, and a jib, a jib, a genoa, and a spinnaker. Then I handed them out to him, and he put them all in my truck one by one. Now suddenly one is not part of the deal? Not like it was a hidden or overlooked clarinet . . . and I'm not sure if it fits, I assume it does, but have yet to try it.
That's the weird part, we took inventory of the sails (in bags, and I just peeked in to make sure they weren't rotted). He said here's a main, and another main, and another main, and a jib, a jib, a genoa, and a spinnaker. Then I handed them out to him, and he put them all in my truck one by one. Now suddenly one is not part of the deal? Not like it was a hidden or overlooked clarinet . . . and I'm not sure if it fits, I assume it does, but have yet to try it.
The sail is yours !
The boat was turned over to you at time of sale with the equipment on it then it was sold with the boat. The only caveat would have been had the owner said something to you at the time of transaction (or before)then the issue would have been muddled. Keep the sail,lose the previous owners name and number cuz you really don't want to be near this guy anyway. Next he be telling you the engine was not included!
The boat was turned over to you at time of sale with the equipment on it then it was sold with the boat. The only caveat would have been had the owner said something to you at the time of transaction (or before)then the issue would have been muddled. Keep the sail,lose the previous owners name and number cuz you really don't want to be near this guy anyway. Next he be telling you the engine was not included!
Another idea !
I just had another idea and that is to "put" this situation all back on the previous owner. Tell him you would be willing to start all over from the beginning let him come get his boat and return your check. This way he gets the boat inventory in order and you can "discover" the hull damage.. At least it will be his option........
I just had another idea and that is to "put" this situation all back on the previous owner. Tell him you would be willing to start all over from the beginning let him come get his boat and return your check. This way he gets the boat inventory in order and you can "discover" the hull damage.. At least it will be his option........
Fast one
At first, I thought this was quite a dilemma for you and I was not sure what i thought to be the ethical course of action. But when you described how he handed you each sail to put in your truck .. add that to the repair he said wasn't there...something fishy is going on here. I wonder, if after selling you the boat one of his buddies said, "Did you let than new 130 go with the boat? I would have goven you $500 for it." I would tell the guy that you don't trust him as the boat had obviously been repaired and that, since you went through the sail inventory with him at the time of sale, the deal is final. Actually, the idea about starting over might be a good one. It gives you an opportunity - if he accepts it - to not buy the boat, which, given the way this guy operates, might not be a bad idea. I guess you need to determine if the repair was properly done. Let us know how this ends.
At first, I thought this was quite a dilemma for you and I was not sure what i thought to be the ethical course of action. But when you described how he handed you each sail to put in your truck .. add that to the repair he said wasn't there...something fishy is going on here. I wonder, if after selling you the boat one of his buddies said, "Did you let than new 130 go with the boat? I would have goven you $500 for it." I would tell the guy that you don't trust him as the boat had obviously been repaired and that, since you went through the sail inventory with him at the time of sale, the deal is final. Actually, the idea about starting over might be a good one. It gives you an opportunity - if he accepts it - to not buy the boat, which, given the way this guy operates, might not be a bad idea. I guess you need to determine if the repair was properly done. Let us know how this ends.
I agree with the majority here
He inventoried the sails with you. That was his oppurtunity to reserve it. His bad. The only way he could not know about the repaired hull is if he is not the original owner, and the PO didn't disclose it to him. But, in all those years of haul outs and bottom painting, he never noticed? Tell him he can have the sail back with the repaired boat as soon as he refunds the purchase price. Otherwise, tough crap. He screwed you once, now he wants to do it again?
He inventoried the sails with you. That was his oppurtunity to reserve it. His bad. The only way he could not know about the repaired hull is if he is not the original owner, and the PO didn't disclose it to him. But, in all those years of haul outs and bottom painting, he never noticed? Tell him he can have the sail back with the repaired boat as soon as he refunds the purchase price. Otherwise, tough crap. He screwed you once, now he wants to do it again?
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