Engine Woes Looking for Advice

[CaptainJB]

I had a startling discovery this morning on my 2002-"356." I opened the engine compartment just to check the Yanmar and the engine compartment sump was full of oil. Checked the dipstick, no oil.

After cleaning up the place I checked the engine very carefully with a flashlight and mirror and under the front of the engine, dead center, where the front of the engine joins the engine block, is a small piece of gasket sticking out. It broke (tore) right at a screw hole. There has never been any work done to this engine other than routine maintenence, and none ot that was done in this area. I must repeat, this was on the bottom of the engine only visible with a flashlight and mirror.

Called the yard mechanic, he looked his eyes were spinning $ signs, and said "Wow, I have never seen anything like that !" We put some oil in and started the engine. Oil immediately started leaking out of the space where the seal was sticking out.

This is not even a rubber seal, but a paper seal !

Yard tells me that even though they are a Yanmar approved dealer and repair center, they will not tackle this repair. Has to go back to Yanmar for a factory repair.

This engine has less than 2,000 hours on it! To say I am upset is clearly an understatement. :cussing:

Question 1: Anyone ever had this problem?

Question 2: I am in the early stages of this evaluation, but I am wondering if it might be more prudent (based on cost differntial), to trade the engine in for a new one which would have a two year warranty versus a 90 day repair warranty.

What are your thoughts?

John

 

[Rick]

Can you take a picture of it. Might help some of the mechanics here if they could see exactly where you are talking. Paper gaskets might be associated with the oil pan. Need more info.

Best of luck

 

[Guest]

Yanmar Oil Leak

Hi John, if it were my boat engine I would have the gasket replaced as opposed to buying a new engine. Warranties are mostly a function of sell price and much like an insurance policy. Whether it is 90 days, twelve months or two years, the shop adds an amount to your total price to cover the likelihood that a follow-up repair might be needed during the warranty period.

I would contact a reputable Yanmar Service Center (emphasis on reputable) and follow their advice to replace the gasket. Your engine has low hours to consider discarding it for new, IMHO.

Terry

 

[Brian M H23]

This sounds like a timing cover gasket. It's a routine thing on a car engine - remove the crankshaft pulley, pull off the front cover of the engine, replace the gasket, reinstall. Replacing an external gasket should cost nowhere near the cost of a new engine.

One discussin on this problem
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/2183713/Main/2182872/

Another:
...particular design flaw for Yanmar was the timing cover gasket problem; the flaw is that the mounting bolts for the pump are also 2 of the timing cover mounting bolts, repeated loosening and tighten of these bolts contributed to timing cover gasket leaks. The timing cover gasket in itself, was also a source of gasket leaks; the early gaskets were pre-impregnated with a rubber ridge seal, claiming no sealant was required for assembly, these has a tendency to leak.
http://www.samlmorse.com/forum/read.php?3,3781

 

[CaptainJB]

Pictures of Gasket

Thanks for all the advice thus far

I have enclosed 2 pictures of the piece of broken gasket material

The 1st picture shows the piece after the mechanic pulled it off, while the second piece tries to reproduce what I saw with the flashlight and mirror when I was looking for the leak under the engine. Only part of the gasket was showing when I origianally saw it

Remember, this is a gasket behind the main engine pulley, behind the fuel pump, behind the timing belt and whatever, and jions the front of the engine to the engine block. This is a static part, and the bolts that go thru it are as originally installed by the factory.

As I said in my original post, I believe the yard I deal with is a very reputable Yanmar approved repair facility. They have said they will not under take this repair. I know they would like the work, so when they tell me to send it to a major Yanmar repair facility, I know they are being honest.

John

 

[kloudie1]

John, Is that a 3YM 30 ?? If so there are only three gaskets in that area, all of which should be a medium level job for a mechanic. Definitely not a reason to pull the motor. The gear case-to-block is probably the one that let go. Of course this is the most difficult one to replace but it really is not that bad of a job. The other two that may be leaking are the oil pan spacer-to-block and the oil pan gasket to the oil pan spacer. A gasket on a case like this may fail slowly. It should have leaked for a while before blowing out. Usually the gasket will compress and then the bolt becomes loose. At that point, it should have started to drip very slowly. If the cover had been re-tightened, most likely the gasket would be fine. Did the mechanic verify that the crankcase breather is free and clear? A blocked breather might do this also. On the YM 30, the oil in that case is not under pressure, it is being poured back into the oil pan, having lubricated the idler gear and camshaft gear and the oil pump itself which is in the top starboard corner of that case. When the case is pulled, get them to check the oil pump and pressure regulating valve just to be sure. Best of luck with it, John.

 

[CaptainJB]

John

This is a 3 GM I am not sure of the difference with the YM

The engine leaked a little last month, there were traces of oil on my oil absorber towel. But just traces.

I changed the oil two weeks ago and had no problem for a week. Didn't even change the oil absorber towel, just repositioned it

Then Whammo, all the oil was in the engine sump

Thanks for advice

John

 

[Don12364]

As the oil only seems to leak when the engine is running then perhaps your mechanic was concerned that the engine may have been run without any oil and hence considered that a full rebuild might be necessary so he recommended an appropriate course of action.
I hope not but if so he may be right!

 

[petersea]

O K here is my 2 cents worth

First got to believe engine is repairable. Even if it is the front cover it should be able to be repaired with out pulling engine and sending it to "factory repair" This is why the factory teaches and certify mechanics to work on their engines ! ! A certified yanmar mechanic should be able to overhaul an engine on their site. Respectfully suggest you get a second opinion from another yanmar certified mechanic before you do anything else. Unless you are not telling us something the first mechanic told you such as ran to long without oil and damaged bearing etc etc. but a front cover should be able to be replaced on the boat As I recall that model boat and engine are very accessible to get at. You may want to talk to a factory rep also to see what they have to say. I got to think the factory rep will not be happy with what your mechanic told you . Another thought is to post a question (or e mail) www.yanmarhelp.com This is a great site for yanmar engines run by a guy who ran a big engine shop in Australia (I think it was Australia) at any rate I would ask him what he thinks. Just as a mater of conversation a new engine will cost upwards of 6 k (more with the transmission) plus labor to remove and replace. your yard wants to charge you the same to R & R the engine to do a repair that should not be more then 10 to 12 hours labor even in the boat. The repair should be less the $1500. including parts. At seven years old and less the 2000 hours your engine has not even reached a quarter of its useful life. These engine will go 20 thousand hours easily but you won't have it that long ! ! Talk to some other people first before you give the yard the OK to fix engine. Another good source is Mack Boring( www.mackboring.com ) All that being said this assumes that there was
NO damage done to the internal parts of the engine when it was run low (maybe none) on oil. This is where I would start first, how did it run when you put oil it it and restarted ? any knocks or unusual noises ?? Keep us posted on what happens..... looks like link to yanmar help is not working but do a copy and past or google yanmar help will to get you there.

 

[Rick D]

Were You Operating The Boat Last?

If so, did the low oil pressure alarm come on? If not, maybe you have in fact no damage. I once had a pin hole leak in an oil filter which resulted in the same situation you were in. I never had the alarm go off and there was no damage. I used that engine for another 500 hours before selling the boat. If there is damage, you could have an insurance claim and should go no further before contacting your agent. Leave everything as it is. There are some exclusions, but it may be covered regardless. Good luck!

 

[CaptainJB]

More Info

I appreciate all the advice, but maybe i need to give everyone more info

Luckily my slip is only a few minutes (3 or 4), from where I raise my sails.

I had checked the engine last time I came back and all was fine other than a few minor spots on my oil absorber cloth.

I probably used the engine less the 10 - 12 minutes during my last sail Saturday. There was no indication of over heating or difference in sound something I am usually very attuned to.

After I discovered the problem this morning I cleaned up the engine sump, found the seal sticking out and called the yard mechanic. We added some oil and started the engine. Started right up and began leaking, I shut it down immediately

I don't think it ran long without oil Saturday. I'm hoping the engine started leaking somewhere near the mid or end of the trip and a lot of the oil leaked out statically overnight

I hear what you are saying about repair should not be to difficult, and I thought the same. However, my understanding of the repair is a little different at this moment.

Please remember I need to make some more phone calls tomorrow but here is my understanding as of tonight, after initial contact late this afternoon with Yanmar through my yard. The estimate I believe I was given was $2,000 to replace the seal at one of the factory repair centers, probably in St. Pete. As I understand it, this repair is to replace the seal only ! If I want other things done, the price goes up

It is my understanding this does not include removal and installation by my yard

I'm hoping tomorrow when I go down to the yard I find the information above is incorrect, and the costs are much lower. I will keep you posted

By the way, as always I find Hunter to be very helpful. They are working with Yanmar to try to help me. I truly cannot say an't say enough about their service

Thanks for all your advice guys

 

[petersea]

Another thought is since the engine is not under warrenty and the senerio you present now just seams absurd, maybe talk to an independent repair shop who will work on your engine in your boat. Seams to me as if you are dealing with the "elite", what you need need a good mechanic who will fix your oil leak.

 

[Benny]

Could you have added to much oil when you performed your last oil change? An engine with to much oil will produce higher than normal oil pressure which can damage engine seals. If the buzzer alarm did not sound and the engine started and ran fine after adding oil then you should be fine. The first sign of an engine low on oil is the lack of lubrication to the valve train, it may squeek and perhaps make a racket before sirious damage to the bottom end is done. That seal needs to be replaced but also the cause of the failure needs to be investigated as that seal was definitely blown out. Make sure there is not a blocked oil passage that could have raised the pressure. Any respectable mechanic should be able to replace the seal and test the engine oild pressure.

 

[kloudie1]

You are probably right, The mechanic thought he’d have to rebuild bearings and possibly the crankshaft. Like Rick noted, if the oil pressure alarm didn’t sound, the engine is probably fine and will need only the gasket replaced. It looks like about a ten hour job to get all the stuff fixed, and in this case, the labor is going to be the biggest cost. Once the cover is off you may want to talk to them about changing the crankshaft front seal (low cost) and possibly the ball bearing (again fairly low cost) in the gear case. You can find free reference material and pictures and instructions at Burningzone (http://www2.burningzone.nl/engine/yanmar.html)
In the vicinity of page 118, 119 is where the gear case stuff is.. Again, good luck with it ..

 

[BroadReach]

Go John Deere

The John Deere company use a series of Yanmar engines in their tractors.
Call them up and see if they can help.
I have used them in the past for parts.

Broad Reach

 

[Sailm8]

I had an oil leak much like you discribed but it had not drained all of the oil just started leaking. Called the mobile mechanic and he pulled off the cover and replaced the gasket for $600.00 right at my slip. Took about 6 hours. After seeing what he did I could have done it myself but the boat was new to me and I wasn't ready to deal with a repair. It was just taking off and putting on parts. 2gm20f engine.