Engine Starting Issue

[MLampner]

My vintage YSB 12 has been completely reliable. Yesterday after a long motor sail, tied up at our destination we left the boat for about an hour. When ready to head out turned the key and got the kind of selinoid click you get with a dying battery. Went below checked I was switched to both batteries and also checked the battery charge gauge. Both batteries showed good. turned the key again and she fired right up.

After a short run hoisted sail, had some second thoughts but decided I didn't want to run it for the better part of 2 hours when I had good wind so I cut it off. When we got relatively close decided not to wait to the bitter end and fired her up, had the same issue with the clicks a few times the thrid time it fired.

My panel is in poor shape, I realize I am clutching at straws but does anyone know if the switch could be causing this. I realize it could be the selenoid or a bad stop on the starter commutator. Thoughts on how to test? On a gas engine in the car I would try a jumper from the battery to the starter motor, but open to other suggestions.

Meanwhile no matter what I do need to replace the exisitng panel, anyone know where I could find a replacement for the starter panel?

 

[Steve Dion]

I would start by cleaning ALL of the connections (battery, starter, switch etc) and see if that works. This is a cheap way to see if the problem goes away. I would also spray all of these contact points with some electrical contact cleaner.

This is a common problem but you never know if it could be something else.

 

[MLampner]

Thanks Steve good idea, will check them out.

 

[Ed Schenck]

Steve is watching, he knew this would get my attention. Once upon a time I like many others went through this. After doing all that Steve suggests AND replacing most everything AND taking out the starter for a rebuild I did this: http://hunter.sailboatowners.com/in...&cat_id=38&aid=7175&page=article&mn=37-cutter .
Good luck. I hope the simple approach works for you.

 

[Don12364]

Me Too + My Possible Solution.

Over the years my Yanmar 3JH ignition switch (Starter Switch) has become unreliable due, I think, to oxidisation (read corrosion) on its contacts. The effect is the same as you describe but after several tries it normally works.

My solution will be to fit a momentary contact type of switch i.e. key or push button, down below either inside or outside the engine compartment. This switch to be in parallel with the starter switch on the panel but using separate wiring.
Then, if the starter switch plays up there is always a second means of starting the engine.
Many others have done this and it is good insurance anyway.

BUT the starter switch is also wired into the alternator circuit so it will also be necessary to switch this on before operating the push button below. If anyone forgets to do this I do not expect to get excessive alternator voltage outputs because all the electronics are also across the house battery which should keep it in check.

 

[Ed Schenck]

The "relay" solution is an easy and inexpensive modification that will always work. It removes all the contact and wiring issues. Before I did that my emergency start solution was a big screwdriver. That also works every time.

 

[Johnb]

I measured the solenoid current draw on my Yanmar 3Qm30 at 21 amps. That is a big draw on a 12 volt system and if all the connections, fuses, switches etc are not good and clean you will have problems.

Although I have not actually done it yet the relay close to the solenoid is a good idea, it eliminates many feet of wire. The relay probably draws less than a fiftieth of what the solenoid does.

 

[Don12364]

21 Amps - are you sure?

I have just edited this posting. What follows here is rubbish. Please see my later posting and apology to JohnB. I leave this here as a penance for not researching my posting properly.

21 Amps means 252 Watts or a quarter of a kilowatt.
Anyone keeping the starter running for more than a few seconds would cause the solenoid to overheat and burn out.
One would have thought that 5 Amps would be plenty and 2.1 Amps more likely.

Sorry to quibble JohnB but it makes one hell of a difference to my approach to this problem.

 

[jorgefife]

M.Lampner
I am new at this, but had some trouble with the switches in the main electrical board, but found that spraying it liberally with contact spray ( O'Reillys) it helped a lot.
I constructed a panel of some thin lexan that I saw in the salvage yard, already with 2 hinges that was exactly the right side, on a frame of mahogony which I varnished.
I now need to instal in front of the panel where you switch the engine on, next to the pedestal, which I assume is where your troubles are
You may want tophone Gary at(832) 297-4718, tell him you are a friend of Jorge and he will take one from one of the Hunters there; let me know what the price is and I will get it for less, I expect around $ 20,00 would be fair
Happy to help!

 

[Mathurin]

I had this kind of issue. On my side, this was a starter problem. It would fire up everytime I got to the boat and left. But if I ran the motor for a while, stopped it, and tried to restart it within as short (maybe 1 hour) period of time, it would be guessing games. Sometimes it would start simply by fidling with the start button long enough, sometimes it wouldn't start at all. At first I tought it may be an electrical problem. So I bought a new switch and a new start button (mine where tired anyway). I also took a pair of cutters, and simply god rid of all the old wires from that ran from the engine panel to the engine (orignial yanmar wires are not marine grade, they are not thinned and most of them where heavily oxydize). After the process of rewiring, I was sure I had eliminated this variable from the equation. First time I fired up the engine, I got the exact same problem. So the cause was really the starter. I took it out and brought it to my local starter shop. In the end, the bearings in the starter where loose, so when cold it wasn't too much of a problem, but when hot, the starter would draw too much current and wouldn't fire up.

 

[Don12364]

Hey JohnB You Were Right!

It is many, many years since, as a young man, I was never without a car in pieces in the garage.
Since then 'pre-engaged' starters have arrived and I worried about my previous posting - so I Wikied it (http://www.matronics.com/aeroelectric/articles/strtctr.pdf) - extracts below.
Starter solenoids now have TWO coils, the main coil is switched out and the smaller acts as a 'hold in' coil.

You were right. Please accept my apologies for doubting your posting.
Don A.
.........................................
Extracts from Wiki (spell corrected by me):-
"Current flowing through the large-wire coil is on the order of 25
amps. Current flowing in the small wire coil is lower . . . about 10 amps.
During this time, current through the starter push button is of the order of
35 amps!!!"

"This design has several important operating considerations. (1) current
flow through the starter switch for the few milliseconds it takes to close
the starter contactor is quite high . . on the order of 25-35 amps."

"This arrangement has a major disadvantage . . . it's really hard on starter push buttons."

 

[J Hunter]

The relay solution, although nearly foolproof, doesn't "always work". I did on my YSE 12 9 years ago. Last year my starter began acting up with the relay installed, it only clicked when started, once a hammer tap on the casing was the only thing that got it to go. First did all the standard stuff like cleaning connections and checking voltages. I took it out for rebuild and the shop couldn't rebuild it so they replaced with a new one they got directly from Mack Boring. This one, with the relay and the connections, wiring etc. cleaned and verified for integrity multiple times, still will not engage and spin every time. At the starter shop bench it worked every time (they won't replace it). On my boat with the starter unmounted but all wiring exactly the same (save a negative jumper from the starter case to the negative) it works every time (over 50 times over a three day period).

There's one post on Sailnet that says the pinion that engages with the fly wheel needed the gear teeth dressed which solved the problem. I'm not sure I believe this. I think it's just a crappy starter that isn't maintaining a good armeture connection when it gets a load on it. I hate having to buy another starter. But I also can't stand an engine that doesn't start reliably. Since it seems to be somewhat temperature and voltage sensitive and the hammer trick seems to have an effect, a friend of mine says that likely indicates a defect in the starter itself.

 

[Blaise]

Check your ground wire. I have seen this problem on many older boats and it has usually been a lose ground.

 

[ShulerJ]

I had a similar problem with my YSB12 in my old boat. It was a large wire connection that had corroded, causing a short. That was on a Cal 25 MKII. If you have the same boat I can tell where to check.
John