I am at witts end with this problem. My 86 Catalina 27 with the M-18 diesel has a starting issue. Actually, it always starts, but somtimes it drags as if the batteries were weak,..I mean really weak. I have newer batteries that have been load tested many times. I have replaced the starter, alternator, engine wiring harness {with upgrade}and checked all the connections including the ground. I hired a marine company that double checked everything and charged me a bundle. The only thing I can think of is to replace the selector switch but the pro's thought that checked out fine. The other thing I noticed is there are two red {power} wires that connect to the batteries. One to each bank. Althou they are both large in diameter one has a larger diameter {or guage} then the other? Why? After spending well over a grand I am hoping that it is something simple. Also, how do you all handle getting a bill from a "pro" that can't solve the problem? He was from a larger marine company and they sent two people out a different times but neither could solve the problem. I did pay the bill,.. it just sucks paying out alot of money and still having the problem. thanks, Jack
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Jack what do you mean by "drag"? - slow cranking? prolonged cranking? There are a lot of engine experts here, of which I am not one, but I do know the more descriptive you are, the better response you will get. Also w/r to the battery cables, they should be the same size but there could be logical reasons why not, e.g., one of further away from the engine or load than the other.
Jack what do you mean by "drag"? - slow cranking? prolonged cranking? There are a lot of engine experts here, of which I am not one, but I do know the more descriptive you are, the better response you will get. Also w/r to the battery cables, they should be the same size but there could be logical reasons why not, e.g., one of further away from the engine or load than the other.
May I take a guess
Don't know enough about your situation, but I would make a wild a$% guess. Some starters have to be shimmed for proper clearance with the flywheel. If you had a starter replaced because of this issue, and the new one does the same, it's possible the old one needed shimming for clearance, and the new one does also. Other than that you said you replaced the starter, it sounds to me like a starter is dragging, or you are not getting enough juice to it from the batteries.
Don't know enough about your situation, but I would make a wild a$% guess. Some starters have to be shimmed for proper clearance with the flywheel. If you had a starter replaced because of this issue, and the new one does the same, it's possible the old one needed shimming for clearance, and the new one does also. Other than that you said you replaced the starter, it sounds to me like a starter is dragging, or you are not getting enough juice to it from the batteries.
Try This
Take a starter battery and two relatively short cables with clamps and place it near the starter solenoid. Connect the hot lead and then jump the ground to the solenoid. If your engine still drags your problem is in the starter or engine (you could have a wiped bearing or an oil problem or whatever), but chances are it will start right up, and your problem will be in the wiring. Usually it's a poor connection. If the problem is in the wiring, the bad connection will get hot or warm when you are cranking through the harness, and you can find it just by grabbing the connections one at a time.
Take a starter battery and two relatively short cables with clamps and place it near the starter solenoid. Connect the hot lead and then jump the ground to the solenoid. If your engine still drags your problem is in the starter or engine (you could have a wiped bearing or an oil problem or whatever), but chances are it will start right up, and your problem will be in the wiring. Usually it's a poor connection. If the problem is in the wiring, the bad connection will get hot or warm when you are cranking through the harness, and you can find it just by grabbing the connections one at a time.
Do a complete electrical check of the .....
Most common problem with these symptoms is a faulty 'solenoid primary circuit' (the circuit includes the 'starter key switch', the push button, any fuses and wiring between the 'key switch' and the starter solenoid). Next time try the following: 1. Locate the starter solenoid, look for a LARGE battery cable thats attached to the solenoid body, 2. look for a small wire that is connected to the solenoid .... its the 'solenoid primary circuit', usually has a covering over the terminal end ..... REMOVE IT from the solenoid. 3. Take an old heavy screwdriver and put it between the LARGE lug on the solenoid that connects to the LARGE BATTERY CABLE and the small terminal that you removed the small wire from. This will totally bypass all the 'solenoid primary circuit' and will energize the solenoid directly from the battery. 'Jumping' these two terminals will start the engine, will BURN the screwdriver ... you will get a large electrical FLASH when you 'jump' these two terminals, as this 'jumper' entirely bypasses the solenoid primary circuit. BE SURE that you and you clothing are clear of alternator, belts or anything else that 'moves' on the engine when you do this. If the engine immediately starts and without any noticeable 'drag' .... *immediately* shut off the engine (get an assistant to immediately shut donw the engine), immediately reattach the small primary circuit wire and attempt to start the engine with the key. If the engine now 'drags' when you attempt to start with the 'key' --- proves that there is HIGH RESISTANCE (broken wire, faulty contacts in switch or pushbutton, corroded connectors, etc. etc. in the PRIMARY circuit !! The remedy:Simply find the 'high resistance' and replace/repair it. If there is a 'fuse' in this circuit ... its usually the *connectors of the fuse holder* that are corroded. Other common problem areas .... carbon deposit on the Contactors IN the key-switch, ditto IN the 'push button'. Perform the above IF and ONLY IF you are mechanically aware/inclinded ... so you dont get 'caught' in the rotating parts of the engine when the engine 'lurches' during its start-up. 99 times out of 100 when there are 'starting problems' on a marine engine, its the primary solenoid circuit. hope this helps.
Most common problem with these symptoms is a faulty 'solenoid primary circuit' (the circuit includes the 'starter key switch', the push button, any fuses and wiring between the 'key switch' and the starter solenoid). Next time try the following: 1. Locate the starter solenoid, look for a LARGE battery cable thats attached to the solenoid body, 2. look for a small wire that is connected to the solenoid .... its the 'solenoid primary circuit', usually has a covering over the terminal end ..... REMOVE IT from the solenoid. 3. Take an old heavy screwdriver and put it between the LARGE lug on the solenoid that connects to the LARGE BATTERY CABLE and the small terminal that you removed the small wire from. This will totally bypass all the 'solenoid primary circuit' and will energize the solenoid directly from the battery. 'Jumping' these two terminals will start the engine, will BURN the screwdriver ... you will get a large electrical FLASH when you 'jump' these two terminals, as this 'jumper' entirely bypasses the solenoid primary circuit. BE SURE that you and you clothing are clear of alternator, belts or anything else that 'moves' on the engine when you do this. If the engine immediately starts and without any noticeable 'drag' .... *immediately* shut off the engine (get an assistant to immediately shut donw the engine), immediately reattach the small primary circuit wire and attempt to start the engine with the key. If the engine now 'drags' when you attempt to start with the 'key' --- proves that there is HIGH RESISTANCE (broken wire, faulty contacts in switch or pushbutton, corroded connectors, etc. etc. in the PRIMARY circuit !! The remedy:Simply find the 'high resistance' and replace/repair it. If there is a 'fuse' in this circuit ... its usually the *connectors of the fuse holder* that are corroded. Other common problem areas .... carbon deposit on the Contactors IN the key-switch, ditto IN the 'push button'. Perform the above IF and ONLY IF you are mechanically aware/inclinded ... so you dont get 'caught' in the rotating parts of the engine when the engine 'lurches' during its start-up. 99 times out of 100 when there are 'starting problems' on a marine engine, its the primary solenoid circuit. hope this helps.
I feel your pain, I had
an electrical problem, (balky alternator). I had two "marine electrical professionals" to the boat. the first one had me buy a lot of expensive cable, cut to size so not returnable, plus other things, got halfway thru the job and wanted some money, but my problem was even worse. I fired him and didn't pay, and the next guy charged me 750 bucks but the best he could do was to tell me "the problem is not in the wiring" but in the regulator circuit board. i had paid him when it appeared the problem was fixed, but it re-appeared later. that's why BOAT stands for Break Out Another Thousand, but what else are we going to spend our money on. A friend of mine says if he leaves any to his kids they'll just buy Beemers with it, so...
an electrical problem, (balky alternator). I had two "marine electrical professionals" to the boat. the first one had me buy a lot of expensive cable, cut to size so not returnable, plus other things, got halfway thru the job and wanted some money, but my problem was even worse. I fired him and didn't pay, and the next guy charged me 750 bucks but the best he could do was to tell me "the problem is not in the wiring" but in the regulator circuit board. i had paid him when it appeared the problem was fixed, but it re-appeared later. that's why BOAT stands for Break Out Another Thousand, but what else are we going to spend our money on. A friend of mine says if he leaves any to his kids they'll just buy Beemers with it, so...
Link
Starting issues link - http://forums.torresen.com/sailing/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2903&sid=238a11d96a1c3e907cbfe932ec051333 My problem was worn out batteries and no shore power to keep them topped off. They would work fine after running the motor but drop in voltage over night. They would crank and crank, but did not have enough oomph to start quickly. J Shirleys idea (a battery and jumper cables directly to the solenoid)seems like a good one to isolate motor or wiring/battery issues and proceed in one direction or the other. You could use another(maybe your car)fresh, high CCA, battery to to check battery issues.
Starting issues link - http://forums.torresen.com/sailing/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2903&sid=238a11d96a1c3e907cbfe932ec051333 My problem was worn out batteries and no shore power to keep them topped off. They would work fine after running the motor but drop in voltage over night. They would crank and crank, but did not have enough oomph to start quickly. J Shirleys idea (a battery and jumper cables directly to the solenoid)seems like a good one to isolate motor or wiring/battery issues and proceed in one direction or the other. You could use another(maybe your car)fresh, high CCA, battery to to check battery issues.
For the first time
For the first time that I can recall, I have to disagree with RichH. If the starter is engaging and turning the engine over, even if slowly, then it is not the solenoid circuit. The solenoid is just a switch. If the start circuit activates the solenoid, that circuit is OK. It is possible I guess that the solenoid won't carry enough current to really spin the starter, but that is very doubtful. What you might do, is take a good digital voltmeter, stick it on the positive lead to the solenoid, and have someone spin the engine over. This will give you the voltage at the starter. Knowing this you can work back, if the voltage is low, or look at the starter if the voltage is OK.
For the first time that I can recall, I have to disagree with RichH. If the starter is engaging and turning the engine over, even if slowly, then it is not the solenoid circuit. The solenoid is just a switch. If the start circuit activates the solenoid, that circuit is OK. It is possible I guess that the solenoid won't carry enough current to really spin the starter, but that is very doubtful. What you might do, is take a good digital voltmeter, stick it on the positive lead to the solenoid, and have someone spin the engine over. This will give you the voltage at the starter. Knowing this you can work back, if the voltage is low, or look at the starter if the voltage is OK.
With your digital volt meter check the voltage at the solenoid
before the starter switch is closed. Then push the starter switch and watch the voltage. Check also the voltage on the load side of the solenoid when the starter switch is closed. There should be no drop across the solenoid. If the no load voltage is normal and the starter running voltage is low then there is a poor conection between the battery and the starter. If there is a drop across the solenoid then the contacts in the solenoid are bad and you need a new solenoid. But the starter was changed so that rules out the solenoid. That leaves the battery connections and the battery switch. Is there a battery fuse block? Have the connections there been inspected? Have the cables from the battery to the engine been inspected at every connection? Has the battery voltage been monitored when the starter is engaged? If the battery voltage is normal with no load and drops with the starting load then the battery is suspect. This is not a complex problem, if taken systematically.
before the starter switch is closed. Then push the starter switch and watch the voltage. Check also the voltage on the load side of the solenoid when the starter switch is closed. There should be no drop across the solenoid. If the no load voltage is normal and the starter running voltage is low then there is a poor conection between the battery and the starter. If there is a drop across the solenoid then the contacts in the solenoid are bad and you need a new solenoid. But the starter was changed so that rules out the solenoid. That leaves the battery connections and the battery switch. Is there a battery fuse block? Have the connections there been inspected? Have the cables from the battery to the engine been inspected at every connection? Has the battery voltage been monitored when the starter is engaged? If the battery voltage is normal with no load and drops with the starting load then the battery is suspect. This is not a complex problem, if taken systematically.
I agree with RichH
RichH is right on. I would only add this: Turn the key to the on position before you short across the terminals in step three. The alternator field needs to be active before the engine is started or you will run the risk of shorting out the diodes in the alternator. If the result is as Rich describes, the problem could also be corroded wire between the switch and the solonid. This is a common problem on older boats without tinned wire, or boats with long runs between the switch and the solonid. As copper wire ages, corrosion (that you can't see) increases the resistance in the wire. The warmer the wire (from engine heat) the more resistance there will be. This is common to small gauge wire (16 and 18 gauge)much more than the large battery wires. Does the starter work when you first start it in the morning but not after you have run fo awhile? If so, I definately suspect the wire from the switch to the solonid. If it turns out to be the wire, there are two easy solutions. 1. replace the wire with one size larger tinned wire. 2. install another starter solonid between the start switch wire and the solonid. The first solution is about $10, the second about $30. Good luck. Dave s/v ARIEL
RichH is right on. I would only add this: Turn the key to the on position before you short across the terminals in step three. The alternator field needs to be active before the engine is started or you will run the risk of shorting out the diodes in the alternator. If the result is as Rich describes, the problem could also be corroded wire between the switch and the solonid. This is a common problem on older boats without tinned wire, or boats with long runs between the switch and the solonid. As copper wire ages, corrosion (that you can't see) increases the resistance in the wire. The warmer the wire (from engine heat) the more resistance there will be. This is common to small gauge wire (16 and 18 gauge)much more than the large battery wires. Does the starter work when you first start it in the morning but not after you have run fo awhile? If so, I definately suspect the wire from the switch to the solonid. If it turns out to be the wire, there are two easy solutions. 1. replace the wire with one size larger tinned wire. 2. install another starter solonid between the start switch wire and the solonid. The first solution is about $10, the second about $30. Good luck. Dave s/v ARIEL
Second thought
Jack, On second thought, check the ground wire from the engine to the boats ground post. It should be very clean and be of the same size as the main positive cable as it carries the same amount of current as the starter wire. Remember that the engine ground wire is the ground path for the starter and the alternator (at least on Yanmars). If there is the least bid of corrosion, heavy loads, like the starter, will cause high resistance. Dave
Jack, On second thought, check the ground wire from the engine to the boats ground post. It should be very clean and be of the same size as the main positive cable as it carries the same amount of current as the starter wire. Remember that the engine ground wire is the ground path for the starter and the alternator (at least on Yanmars). If there is the least bid of corrosion, heavy loads, like the starter, will cause high resistance. Dave
Interesting thread
Very interesting discussion here. And I still disagree with RichH. Ariel, think of it this way. The starter button only activates the solenoid. That circuit does not carry battery voltage to the starter. That is the job of the solenoid. IF the solenoid is working, then you can eliminate that circuit as the problem. You don't gain anything by jumping the solenoid, if it is already engaging. I think you are very correct in your statement about checking the ground circuit. Ross is thinking along the same lines as I am. Check the voltage at the starter, and this will tell you whether to work back to the wiring, or forward to the starter. As a final thought, was the block cleaned when the new starter was installed. If the Universal is like most others, the starter grounds through the block. A dirty block when installing the starter could cause enough of a loss of ground to cause the problem.
Very interesting discussion here. And I still disagree with RichH. Ariel, think of it this way. The starter button only activates the solenoid. That circuit does not carry battery voltage to the starter. That is the job of the solenoid. IF the solenoid is working, then you can eliminate that circuit as the problem. You don't gain anything by jumping the solenoid, if it is already engaging. I think you are very correct in your statement about checking the ground circuit. Ross is thinking along the same lines as I am. Check the voltage at the starter, and this will tell you whether to work back to the wiring, or forward to the starter. As a final thought, was the block cleaned when the new starter was installed. If the Universal is like most others, the starter grounds through the block. A dirty block when installing the starter could cause enough of a loss of ground to cause the problem.
Problem continues after new starter. Loosen starter mounting bolts and retorque
that should take care of any poor contact between starter and engine block. A wonderful thing about a diesel engine is that you only need to crank the engine to start it unless you have glo-plugs. How much current do glo-plug draw? Once the engine is running it needs only fuel and cooling. This engine always starts but doesn't crank at a normal speed. That narrows down the choices for a problem.
that should take care of any poor contact between starter and engine block. A wonderful thing about a diesel engine is that you only need to crank the engine to start it unless you have glo-plugs. How much current do glo-plug draw? Once the engine is running it needs only fuel and cooling. This engine always starts but doesn't crank at a normal speed. That narrows down the choices for a problem.
I am of the opinion someone goofed
Sounds like someone goofed somewhere. Was the starter motor rebuilt or replaced? I had a problem simular to this and the rebuild was bad. Some part that was replaced or new is bad. I have had battiers load tested as good that where bad. They where even tested by two different shops. Try a different battery you know works well like out of your car. Take your time and go slow and you will find the problem. I have also seen brand new solenoid that was bad. You only have five parts that could be the problem ; cables,batteries,solenoid,starter or engine. The engine could have a bearing or valve problem. Fly wheel could be missing teeth. If it runs good once it starts probably eliminates the engine except for missing teeth on the flywheel. Report back once you solve this so we will have another story to tell.
Sounds like someone goofed somewhere. Was the starter motor rebuilt or replaced? I had a problem simular to this and the rebuild was bad. Some part that was replaced or new is bad. I have had battiers load tested as good that where bad. They where even tested by two different shops. Try a different battery you know works well like out of your car. Take your time and go slow and you will find the problem. I have also seen brand new solenoid that was bad. You only have five parts that could be the problem ; cables,batteries,solenoid,starter or engine. The engine could have a bearing or valve problem. Fly wheel could be missing teeth. If it runs good once it starts probably eliminates the engine except for missing teeth on the flywheel. Report back once you solve this so we will have another story to tell.
Nice and easy ......
If there is high resistance in the primary solenoid circuit there wont be enough energy/wattage to completely energize the solenoid coil to throw the solenoid plunger to the contacts of the starter. If the solenoid contacts are arcing (not making complete contact), there wont be enough energy/wattage to turn the starter at full speed, etc. etc. etc. Sure, usually a faulty primary solenoid circuit usually results in NO start, but sometimes there is just enough energy/power to make only a partial contact .... hence the 'drag'. A simple 'jumper' between the primary and secondary will settle if this is whats actually happening. Its easy to burn the internal contacts on a 'Delco type' solenoid. ;-)
If there is high resistance in the primary solenoid circuit there wont be enough energy/wattage to completely energize the solenoid coil to throw the solenoid plunger to the contacts of the starter. If the solenoid contacts are arcing (not making complete contact), there wont be enough energy/wattage to turn the starter at full speed, etc. etc. etc. Sure, usually a faulty primary solenoid circuit usually results in NO start, but sometimes there is just enough energy/power to make only a partial contact .... hence the 'drag'. A simple 'jumper' between the primary and secondary will settle if this is whats actually happening. Its easy to burn the internal contacts on a 'Delco type' solenoid. ;-)
I bow down
Rich, I guess that is certainly possible, but have never seen it happen. I will bow to your knowledge. Sometimes some of you just get way too technical for us lowly masses.
Rich, I guess that is certainly possible, but have never seen it happen. I will bow to your knowledge. Sometimes some of you just get way too technical for us lowly masses.
thanks,..I need to print the responses and study!!
From Jack, Orignal post: I really appreiciate the help and will study all the responses. I need to start working the problem again. I really like the idea of simply unbolting and then retightening the starter. Wouldn't it be great if it were just that simple:} Sorry for lacking some detail but most of you understood the problem. I won't have time to look at it this weekend but I will post the answer {hopefully} soon. Jack
From Jack, Orignal post: I really appreiciate the help and will study all the responses. I need to start working the problem again. I really like the idea of simply unbolting and then retightening the starter. Wouldn't it be great if it were just that simple:} Sorry for lacking some detail but most of you understood the problem. I won't have time to look at it this weekend but I will post the answer {hopefully} soon. Jack
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