I was looking at the Raritan website and reviewing the waste treatment systems. The idea of getting rid of the holding tank all together seems like a pretty good plan but I have a few questions. They say the new model uses 36% less power but do not state what the actual expected power consumption is - so what can you expect per flush or per day for a cruising couple. They also say it is Coast Guard approved and can be used anywhere EXCEPT in Federal no discharge areas. Does this mean you still need a holding tank - what are US federal no discharge zones? It appears that all areas within the 3 mile limits are NDZ's It looks like there is a fair bit of maintenance as well - any comments. There are likely many manufacturers of competing technology and I am really interested in the idea of treatment versus hold and pumpout. Any thoughts?
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Electroc Scan requires very little maintenance..
Main differenc between the Electro Scan and previous versions of the Lectra/San is the controller...the LED display provides a LOT more imformation than the Lectra/San Contollers, making it much easier to know what any problem is, instead of trying figure what various blinking lights mean. And it uses 30% less power than the 1.7 AH/flush required by the previous Lectra/San versions. The power consumption per day for a cruising couple would be only about 12-15 amps/day. All waters inside the "3 mile limit" are NOT no discharge. It is illegal to discharge raw UNTREATED sewage (dump a tank or flush a toilet directly overboard) into all US water inside the "3 mile limit, but the discharge ofo TREATED waste from a CG certified Type I or II MSD is legal in 90% of coastal waters. Most inland lakes are no discharge, but only about 10% of inland rivers. So you'd prob'ly wouldn't be able to do away with a holding tank altogether, but you'll use it very rarely--that is, unless you happen to be in SoCal or New England. ( Actually, there are very few mfrs of Type I MSDs...the Lectra/San--now the ElectroScan--and the PuraSan (also made by Raritan are the only ones suitable for most boats under about 50'. All the others are much larger, require a LOT more power, and cost 2-5x as much. So unless your cruising grounds are an inland lake or in the 10% of coastal waters that are ND, you'll LOVE the Electro San. I highly recommend it. Where IS White Rock???)
Main differenc between the Electro Scan and previous versions of the Lectra/San is the controller...the LED display provides a LOT more imformation than the Lectra/San Contollers, making it much easier to know what any problem is, instead of trying figure what various blinking lights mean. And it uses 30% less power than the 1.7 AH/flush required by the previous Lectra/San versions. The power consumption per day for a cruising couple would be only about 12-15 amps/day. All waters inside the "3 mile limit" are NOT no discharge. It is illegal to discharge raw UNTREATED sewage (dump a tank or flush a toilet directly overboard) into all US water inside the "3 mile limit, but the discharge ofo TREATED waste from a CG certified Type I or II MSD is legal in 90% of coastal waters. Most inland lakes are no discharge, but only about 10% of inland rivers. So you'd prob'ly wouldn't be able to do away with a holding tank altogether, but you'll use it very rarely--that is, unless you happen to be in SoCal or New England. ( Actually, there are very few mfrs of Type I MSDs...the Lectra/San--now the ElectroScan--and the PuraSan (also made by Raritan are the only ones suitable for most boats under about 50'. All the others are much larger, require a LOT more power, and cost 2-5x as much. So unless your cruising grounds are an inland lake or in the 10% of coastal waters that are ND, you'll LOVE the Electro San. I highly recommend it. Where IS White Rock???)
No Discharge Zones
The White Rock I know about is just north of the Canada/US border in BC. near Blaine Washington. Most harbors are no discharge, so if you are anchored in Prideaux Haven, Princess Louisa, Reid Harbor, Friday Harbor etc! you won't be able to use the head without a holding tank.
The White Rock I know about is just north of the Canada/US border in BC. near Blaine Washington. Most harbors are no discharge, so if you are anchored in Prideaux Haven, Princess Louisa, Reid Harbor, Friday Harbor etc! you won't be able to use the head without a holding tank.
You might want to double check that, Mick...
None of the harbors on the US side are "no discharge"...and the only ones I know of in BC are the provicial park anchorages. The discharge of treated waste is legal everywhere else.
None of the harbors on the US side are "no discharge"...and the only ones I know of in BC are the provicial park anchorages. The discharge of treated waste is legal everywhere else.
Question
I understand that the system kills the bacteria before it discharges it over board. Isn't the materials that the algae feeds on still going into the water. The same materials as the fertilizers that enter, via drainage, the waters and create algae blooms and deplete oxygen, fish, sea grass, or am I missing something?
I understand that the system kills the bacteria before it discharges it over board. Isn't the materials that the algae feeds on still going into the water. The same materials as the fertilizers that enter, via drainage, the waters and create algae blooms and deplete oxygen, fish, sea grass, or am I missing something?
Check Boatus website
There are plenty of places that are No-Discharge. Most lakes are no-discharge. Most of the Florida Keys are no discharge as is Key West Harbor. As noted the electrosan only disinfects so that you don't share hepatitis with the people swimming nearby or those who eat the local oysters. But this does nothing about the fertilizer effects of poop. An "ideally" ran sewage treatment plant discharges very little if any nutrients and the discharge is disinfected with chlorine. Briefly the sewage treatment plant settles out solid material and then uses bacteria to absorb nutrients from the remaining liquid and then they settle out the bacteria for proper disposal. An electrosan uses electricity to generate chlorine from chloride. The chlorine kills the germs but does nothing about the fertilizer (nutrients). Phosphorous and nitrogen are two key nutrients. There is another thing called biological oxygen demand(BOD) where the poop eating bacteria use up oxygen in the water, no oxygen equals no fish. electrosan does nothing about this. Sewage treatment plants pump air into the water to provide oxygen so that their bacteria can eat poop and absorb nutrients. Sewage treatment plants have standards for BOD and other nutrients and the local municipality that runs the plant can theoretically be fined for not meeting standards. Chesapeak bay has a real problem with low or no oxygen in the summer and this has killed a lot of the bays crabs and oysters. It would be ridiculous to say that boaters caused this problem. But pumping poop overboard does contribute to the problem. I use a holding tank and hope that the sewage treatment plant meets state and federal standards.
There are plenty of places that are No-Discharge. Most lakes are no-discharge. Most of the Florida Keys are no discharge as is Key West Harbor. As noted the electrosan only disinfects so that you don't share hepatitis with the people swimming nearby or those who eat the local oysters. But this does nothing about the fertilizer effects of poop. An "ideally" ran sewage treatment plant discharges very little if any nutrients and the discharge is disinfected with chlorine. Briefly the sewage treatment plant settles out solid material and then uses bacteria to absorb nutrients from the remaining liquid and then they settle out the bacteria for proper disposal. An electrosan uses electricity to generate chlorine from chloride. The chlorine kills the germs but does nothing about the fertilizer (nutrients). Phosphorous and nitrogen are two key nutrients. There is another thing called biological oxygen demand(BOD) where the poop eating bacteria use up oxygen in the water, no oxygen equals no fish. electrosan does nothing about this. Sewage treatment plants pump air into the water to provide oxygen so that their bacteria can eat poop and absorb nutrients. Sewage treatment plants have standards for BOD and other nutrients and the local municipality that runs the plant can theoretically be fined for not meeting standards. Chesapeak bay has a real problem with low or no oxygen in the summer and this has killed a lot of the bays crabs and oysters. It would be ridiculous to say that boaters caused this problem. But pumping poop overboard does contribute to the problem. I use a holding tank and hope that the sewage treatment plant meets state and federal standards.
BOD is a specious argument against treatment.
The BOD created by the discharge from a Lectra/San or PuraSan is less than that from 4 oak leaves falling into the water--FAR lower than any sewage treatment plant standard, and many thousands of times more than that ends up running off the shore every time it rains. More tanks are illegally dumped than are pumped out...the environmentally impact from just ONE illegally dumped tank is greater than the impact would be from 1,000 boats, all using treatment devices, in the same area for 24 hours. There has never been an algae bloom attributed to the discharge of treated waste from boats. But there have been plenty caused by sewage treatament plant spills. And as for standards and regulations...apparently you aren't aware that more than 100 municipal sewage treatment plants on the east coat are exempt from meeting EPA standards because their systems aren't capable of meeting them and they can't afford to replace 'em. The very same DAY that RI's statewide ND law took effect, a sewage treatment plant spill in Providence closed all the shellfish beds and beaches for a week. Recently I stood on the dock and listened to someone try to give me the same argument while he was standing in the cockpit of his boat cleaning some fish he'd caught that day...and dumping the fish guts overboard. He--and you--are concerned about the miniscule amount of BOD from a treatment device, but the amount of BOD created by rotting fish guts in the water is ok. If you'd actually read what I wrote re no discharge waters, you know that I already said that most inland lakes, including the Great Lakes, are no discharge. However, only a small portion of the rivers are. The Florida Keys and Destin Harbor are the only ND waters in the entire Gulf...on the Atlantic coast, there are none of any size--only a few small enclosed harbors--between the Keys and RI. The whole state of RI and CT and about half of MA is. The only ND area on the whole Chespeake Bay is Herring Bay...and although most of the small enclosed harbors on Long Island Sound are ND, the Sound itself is not. That makes the discharge from CG certified treatment devices legal--and FAR more environmentally responsible than holding tanks--in about 90% of US coastal waters and most of the navigable inland waterways. On the west coast, most of SoCal waters are no discharge, but there's only one on the whole west coast north of Santa Barbara...a small harbor off SF Bay.
The BOD created by the discharge from a Lectra/San or PuraSan is less than that from 4 oak leaves falling into the water--FAR lower than any sewage treatment plant standard, and many thousands of times more than that ends up running off the shore every time it rains. More tanks are illegally dumped than are pumped out...the environmentally impact from just ONE illegally dumped tank is greater than the impact would be from 1,000 boats, all using treatment devices, in the same area for 24 hours. There has never been an algae bloom attributed to the discharge of treated waste from boats. But there have been plenty caused by sewage treatament plant spills. And as for standards and regulations...apparently you aren't aware that more than 100 municipal sewage treatment plants on the east coat are exempt from meeting EPA standards because their systems aren't capable of meeting them and they can't afford to replace 'em. The very same DAY that RI's statewide ND law took effect, a sewage treatment plant spill in Providence closed all the shellfish beds and beaches for a week. Recently I stood on the dock and listened to someone try to give me the same argument while he was standing in the cockpit of his boat cleaning some fish he'd caught that day...and dumping the fish guts overboard. He--and you--are concerned about the miniscule amount of BOD from a treatment device, but the amount of BOD created by rotting fish guts in the water is ok. If you'd actually read what I wrote re no discharge waters, you know that I already said that most inland lakes, including the Great Lakes, are no discharge. However, only a small portion of the rivers are. The Florida Keys and Destin Harbor are the only ND waters in the entire Gulf...on the Atlantic coast, there are none of any size--only a few small enclosed harbors--between the Keys and RI. The whole state of RI and CT and about half of MA is. The only ND area on the whole Chespeake Bay is Herring Bay...and although most of the small enclosed harbors on Long Island Sound are ND, the Sound itself is not. That makes the discharge from CG certified treatment devices legal--and FAR more environmentally responsible than holding tanks--in about 90% of US coastal waters and most of the navigable inland waterways. On the west coast, most of SoCal waters are no discharge, but there's only one on the whole west coast north of Santa Barbara...a small harbor off SF Bay.
Interesting discussion
Peggy, White Rock is just south of Vancouver on the WA border, we keep our boat in Blaine Harbor which I assume would be a N/D zone. I would therefore need to keep a holding tank. I think you would need a Y valve from the Electrosan unit to the holding tank or throughhull. We currently have a macerator to discharge the holding tank so I would need another Y valve so when the electrosan goes directly overboard it avoids the macerator or would you just run everthing through the holding tank and be legal to dump? As far as the other discussion goes there are cities dumping only primary treated waste (screened) directly into the ocean. It is an embarasment for us to admit that Victoria our BC capital is guilty of this. They have been legislated to build the necessary treatment facilities and that should stop in a short time.
Peggy, White Rock is just south of Vancouver on the WA border, we keep our boat in Blaine Harbor which I assume would be a N/D zone. I would therefore need to keep a holding tank. I think you would need a Y valve from the Electrosan unit to the holding tank or throughhull. We currently have a macerator to discharge the holding tank so I would need another Y valve so when the electrosan goes directly overboard it avoids the macerator or would you just run everthing through the holding tank and be legal to dump? As far as the other discussion goes there are cities dumping only primary treated waste (screened) directly into the ocean. It is an embarasment for us to admit that Victoria our BC capital is guilty of this. They have been legislated to build the necessary treatment facilities and that should stop in a short time.
BOD is real, 4 oak leaves????
Electrosan is appropriate treatment in many places. But 4 oak leaves???? are we talking red oak, white oak, or pin oak??? Since a BOD is usually measured by a 24 hour incubation, do oak leaves have any BOD in that time frame??? Poop has a very large BOD. Hopefully fish guts are eaten by the crabs but fish guts do have a BOD. Some waters tolerate nutrients well as do many fish ,I used to bass fish in a pond that got chicken house wastes. Biggest bass around even though the water stank. Farm ponds that are pea soup green are the most productive if they have enough oxygen. But in nutrient poor waters the addition of nutrients causes algea to grow. Too much algea and the coral die. Would the Keys be the same if they had pea soup water?? How about beautiful green slime growing over all of the coral. Better yet red tide to kill all of the fish. (red tide has been related to nutrient rich waters) Try dumping a quart of your electrosan treated poop in your aquarium!!! Maybe put 4 oak leaves in a simular aquarium. I know in which aquarium I'd put my fish!!! Mobile bay is a green water bay that is fairly productive and gets a lot of nutrients from most of Alabama. Adding a little poop from a sailboat probably isn't noticed. But even with electrosan treatment I don't like the ideal of me and my children swimming in fresh poop!!!! In a crowded anchorage I guess the poop concentration can get pretty high. But assuming that the electrosan is working properly we won't catch hepatitis or a nice staph ear infection. No doubt that if you are pumping poop overboard it is better that it is treated. There are still a lot of boats pumping the poop straight out into the water without any treatment. While diving in the Bahamas it wasn't unusual to see poop and toilet paper come floating past. As to fish and whale poop they live in the water and get all of their food from that water so they don't(can't) add any nutrients. But when you are in your boat eating beef from Texas,fish from Alaska and pasta from Italy you are adding nutrients. Oh don't forget the beer from Milwaukee and wine from California. Saying that pooping in the water is harmless is simular to the three pack a day smoker saying that smoking don't affect their health. Is pooping in the water going to destroy the ecology of a bay...probably not. Is it good for the environment...probably not. If I had an electrosan on my boat I'd use it. But when I needed a new system a few years ago I felt better using a holding tank. Do I think that people who use electrosans are bad people..NO. But I'd be carefull swimming behind their boat!!!!
Electrosan is appropriate treatment in many places. But 4 oak leaves???? are we talking red oak, white oak, or pin oak??? Since a BOD is usually measured by a 24 hour incubation, do oak leaves have any BOD in that time frame??? Poop has a very large BOD. Hopefully fish guts are eaten by the crabs but fish guts do have a BOD. Some waters tolerate nutrients well as do many fish ,I used to bass fish in a pond that got chicken house wastes. Biggest bass around even though the water stank. Farm ponds that are pea soup green are the most productive if they have enough oxygen. But in nutrient poor waters the addition of nutrients causes algea to grow. Too much algea and the coral die. Would the Keys be the same if they had pea soup water?? How about beautiful green slime growing over all of the coral. Better yet red tide to kill all of the fish. (red tide has been related to nutrient rich waters) Try dumping a quart of your electrosan treated poop in your aquarium!!! Maybe put 4 oak leaves in a simular aquarium. I know in which aquarium I'd put my fish!!! Mobile bay is a green water bay that is fairly productive and gets a lot of nutrients from most of Alabama. Adding a little poop from a sailboat probably isn't noticed. But even with electrosan treatment I don't like the ideal of me and my children swimming in fresh poop!!!! In a crowded anchorage I guess the poop concentration can get pretty high. But assuming that the electrosan is working properly we won't catch hepatitis or a nice staph ear infection. No doubt that if you are pumping poop overboard it is better that it is treated. There are still a lot of boats pumping the poop straight out into the water without any treatment. While diving in the Bahamas it wasn't unusual to see poop and toilet paper come floating past. As to fish and whale poop they live in the water and get all of their food from that water so they don't(can't) add any nutrients. But when you are in your boat eating beef from Texas,fish from Alaska and pasta from Italy you are adding nutrients. Oh don't forget the beer from Milwaukee and wine from California. Saying that pooping in the water is harmless is simular to the three pack a day smoker saying that smoking don't affect their health. Is pooping in the water going to destroy the ecology of a bay...probably not. Is it good for the environment...probably not. If I had an electrosan on my boat I'd use it. But when I needed a new system a few years ago I felt better using a holding tank. Do I think that people who use electrosans are bad people..NO. But I'd be carefull swimming behind their boat!!!!
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