electrical conduit shaken loose inside mast of newport 27. electrical system still works but conduit rattles. Does anyone know how the conduit is normally attached, the best procedure for reattaching, and can this be accomplished without taking down the mast?8RZ
electrical conduit loose inside mast - help
- Thread starter john nolan
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foam
You might try insulating spray foam. It is available at most hardware/homedepot stores. It can be sprayed into the mast at strategic locations. It expands and should hold the conduit firmly in place. And it is cheap.
You might try insulating spray foam. It is available at most hardware/homedepot stores. It can be sprayed into the mast at strategic locations. It expands and should hold the conduit firmly in place. And it is cheap.
no canned foam...
I'm with ross on this because that stuff is hard to control and a bitch to remove. Besides it will interfere with the halyards. Look for an access hole, like the steaming light, and see if you can hook the conduit and pull it against the side of the mast with a piece of wire. Hope someone else has a suggestion. If you take the mast down you can tape a few pieces of styrofoam to the conduit.
I'm with ross on this because that stuff is hard to control and a bitch to remove. Besides it will interfere with the halyards. Look for an access hole, like the steaming light, and see if you can hook the conduit and pull it against the side of the mast with a piece of wire. Hope someone else has a suggestion. If you take the mast down you can tape a few pieces of styrofoam to the conduit.
secured with rivet
I kind of remember my conduit on my 32 ODay being held by rivets,you might try and drill 2 holes on either side of the conduit and send a stainles wire thru one hole and out the other than twist together as a temporary solution
I kind of remember my conduit on my 32 ODay being held by rivets,you might try and drill 2 holes on either side of the conduit and send a stainles wire thru one hole and out the other than twist together as a temporary solution
Hook a halyard
Not really a halyard but a thin piece of rope attached firmly and I mean firmly! Pull the wires out of the bottom along with the rope and attach cable ties like Ross said. The tails of the ties will keep it from swinging inside the mast. Gently pull it all back up through with the attached rope. Requires going up the mast to whatever point to attach the rope to the wireing and a second person to feed ot all into the bottom while you pull it up and reconnect.
Not really a halyard but a thin piece of rope attached firmly and I mean firmly! Pull the wires out of the bottom along with the rope and attach cable ties like Ross said. The tails of the ties will keep it from swinging inside the mast. Gently pull it all back up through with the attached rope. Requires going up the mast to whatever point to attach the rope to the wireing and a second person to feed ot all into the bottom while you pull it up and reconnect.
Pull the mast
I'll apologize in advance ... I'm cold, wet and tired ...
What is the big friggin' deal about pulling the mast and doing it right? Trust me, pulling the mast is no big deal. On a 27 you could almost get three buddies and just yank the darn thing off the boat. Okay, maybe that's not such a bright idea, but a gin pole or any local sign company's crane will make short work of it. If the is a conduit inside the mast and it is now loose ... more than one fastener has come loose. You will spend twice as long trying to kludge together a fix hanging from a bosun's chair in Lake Tahoe in the winter than dropping the mast now, dealing with it properly, and re-stepping the mast in the spring. There are three standard ways to attach a conduit inside a mast. Pop rivets spaced about 3-4 feet apart are the most common when fitting conduit into a mast that was not designed for it. If the conduit was attached this way, how many rivets have failed to allow the conduit to bang around inside the mast? Do you really want to try to fix that from the outside in a bosun's chair? Some masts have an extruded "t" shape inside. The conduit is slotted and the slot fits over the "t". If this type of conduit is loose, something is broken. Either the "t" has broken off from the inside of the mast (I've never seen that), or the conduit has cracked and pulled away from the "t". Replacing the conduit requires the mast be out of the boat. The last way I've seen conduit attached is with #8 or #10 screws from inside the conduit, through the mast, and fastened with nuts on the outside of the mast. Thank God, I've never been faced with having to replace or install conduit this way. Hinterholer does it on the Nonsuch masts and it is quite the trick. Foam, Wads of shag carpet left over from re-modeling the basement, and wire ties are the signature of amateurs. No electrical inspector in their right mind would sign off on a house that had unsupported wiring hanging inside a 4 story wall. Why would anyone even consider letting the wiring hang inside a mast (even with, wads of carpet or wire ties to keep it from making noise)? Ross, I love like a brother, but to make the wire tie thing work on a mast with internal halyards requires more luck than I can count on. One of the problems is that the wire ties prevent you from changing out just one wire, the whole harness has to come out if you need to replace or repair one circuit. I like to see a conduit with each circuit fed by a duplex cable and a tag line run through the conduit in case an extra wire needs to be run. For external halyard masts, and if you are installing all new wire (that won't have to be looked at until the next 5 year inspection) then the wire tie option is a viable choice if you add a spectra or SS cable to the harness to bear the weight. If you have a race boat and cannot compromise the bend characteristics of the mast with a conduit and harness attached inside the mast, you can use a Nylon sleeve to support the harness on a stainless cable inside the mast. The Nylon keeps halyards from fouling the harness, and the cable bears the weight. The sleeve makes less noise than the bare harness, but it can still bang around in some conditions. Sorry to rant, my mother was supposed to fly out of DEN to visit for Xmas and the airport has been closed since Wednesday morning, I spent hours outside in 40deg F rain moving masts around in the yard to make room for a 90+ foot carbon mast inside the shop, and I can't find a Wii so my wife can play "Prisoner of Zelda" ... I'm cranky.
I'll apologize in advance ... I'm cold, wet and tired ...
What is the big friggin' deal about pulling the mast and doing it right? Trust me, pulling the mast is no big deal. On a 27 you could almost get three buddies and just yank the darn thing off the boat. Okay, maybe that's not such a bright idea, but a gin pole or any local sign company's crane will make short work of it. If the is a conduit inside the mast and it is now loose ... more than one fastener has come loose. You will spend twice as long trying to kludge together a fix hanging from a bosun's chair in Lake Tahoe in the winter than dropping the mast now, dealing with it properly, and re-stepping the mast in the spring. There are three standard ways to attach a conduit inside a mast. Pop rivets spaced about 3-4 feet apart are the most common when fitting conduit into a mast that was not designed for it. If the conduit was attached this way, how many rivets have failed to allow the conduit to bang around inside the mast? Do you really want to try to fix that from the outside in a bosun's chair? Some masts have an extruded "t" shape inside. The conduit is slotted and the slot fits over the "t". If this type of conduit is loose, something is broken. Either the "t" has broken off from the inside of the mast (I've never seen that), or the conduit has cracked and pulled away from the "t". Replacing the conduit requires the mast be out of the boat. The last way I've seen conduit attached is with #8 or #10 screws from inside the conduit, through the mast, and fastened with nuts on the outside of the mast. Thank God, I've never been faced with having to replace or install conduit this way. Hinterholer does it on the Nonsuch masts and it is quite the trick. Foam, Wads of shag carpet left over from re-modeling the basement, and wire ties are the signature of amateurs. No electrical inspector in their right mind would sign off on a house that had unsupported wiring hanging inside a 4 story wall. Why would anyone even consider letting the wiring hang inside a mast (even with, wads of carpet or wire ties to keep it from making noise)? Ross, I love like a brother, but to make the wire tie thing work on a mast with internal halyards requires more luck than I can count on. One of the problems is that the wire ties prevent you from changing out just one wire, the whole harness has to come out if you need to replace or repair one circuit. I like to see a conduit with each circuit fed by a duplex cable and a tag line run through the conduit in case an extra wire needs to be run. For external halyard masts, and if you are installing all new wire (that won't have to be looked at until the next 5 year inspection) then the wire tie option is a viable choice if you add a spectra or SS cable to the harness to bear the weight. If you have a race boat and cannot compromise the bend characteristics of the mast with a conduit and harness attached inside the mast, you can use a Nylon sleeve to support the harness on a stainless cable inside the mast. The Nylon keeps halyards from fouling the harness, and the cable bears the weight. The sleeve makes less noise than the bare harness, but it can still bang around in some conditions. Sorry to rant, my mother was supposed to fly out of DEN to visit for Xmas and the airport has been closed since Wednesday morning, I spent hours outside in 40deg F rain moving masts around in the yard to make room for a 90+ foot carbon mast inside the shop, and I can't find a Wii so my wife can play "Prisoner of Zelda" ... I'm cranky. 
Moody, I figure that if one wire needs replacing
it is probably time to replace the entire harness. Wire inside the mast that is allowed the bang against the sides is chafing everytime it hits. When I wired my mast I made the harness up on 1/4 inch sta-set with some slack in the wire between the ties. Probably this spring I will pull the mast for inspection. Nancy and I do this with an "A" frame, some 1/2 inch three strand anchor line, a big block at the stem and my two speed sheet winch. I hitch my jib halyard to the 1/2 inch line and haul it to the mast head and secure the halyard. Then I take a light strain on the 1/2 line and pull the pins on the forestay and the lower forward shrouds. I disconnect the wires at the junction box at the base of the mast and with Nancy tailing the winch I push the mast over towards the stern. Once started gravity does the work and I guide the 1/2 line into the sheaves at the top of the "A" frame. As it gets close to horizontal I have to control the foot as the mast lays on the boom gallows. If the foot isn't controlled the mast wants the scoot forward. Once it is down I secure it so that it stays on the boat and do whatever needs doing. The 1/2 line is carefully kept in the sheaves on the "A" frame so that raising the stick is as easy as lowering it except that I grind the winch while Nancy tails it and watches for the shrouds fouling. We can lower the mast do the work needed and have it back in place between breakfast and lunch.
it is probably time to replace the entire harness. Wire inside the mast that is allowed the bang against the sides is chafing everytime it hits. When I wired my mast I made the harness up on 1/4 inch sta-set with some slack in the wire between the ties. Probably this spring I will pull the mast for inspection. Nancy and I do this with an "A" frame, some 1/2 inch three strand anchor line, a big block at the stem and my two speed sheet winch. I hitch my jib halyard to the 1/2 inch line and haul it to the mast head and secure the halyard. Then I take a light strain on the 1/2 line and pull the pins on the forestay and the lower forward shrouds. I disconnect the wires at the junction box at the base of the mast and with Nancy tailing the winch I push the mast over towards the stern. Once started gravity does the work and I guide the 1/2 line into the sheaves at the top of the "A" frame. As it gets close to horizontal I have to control the foot as the mast lays on the boom gallows. If the foot isn't controlled the mast wants the scoot forward. Once it is down I secure it so that it stays on the boat and do whatever needs doing. The 1/2 line is carefully kept in the sheaves on the "A" frame so that raising the stick is as easy as lowering it except that I grind the winch while Nancy tails it and watches for the shrouds fouling. We can lower the mast do the work needed and have it back in place between breakfast and lunch.
Agree ... remove the mast.
If you haven't had it down for a while, there are all kinds of reasons to do it. We just had our mast removed for the first winter in the last three and there are a number of jobs I have in mind while it is down. At a bit more than 33', I am lucky to have it fit in the basement where I have all winter to re-fit it. I am pretty sure my wiring conduit is loose, too, so that job will be added to my list. Moody, my son was also supposed to fly home from Denver on Thursday. He called to let me know that his first available flight gets in to Newark at midnight, Christmas Eve. *grr
If you haven't had it down for a while, there are all kinds of reasons to do it. We just had our mast removed for the first winter in the last three and there are a number of jobs I have in mind while it is down. At a bit more than 33', I am lucky to have it fit in the basement where I have all winter to re-fit it. I am pretty sure my wiring conduit is loose, too, so that job will be added to my list. Moody, my son was also supposed to fly home from Denver on Thursday. He called to let me know that his first available flight gets in to Newark at midnight, Christmas Eve. *grr
Ross
You should do a small write-up and a sketch or two. Hanging the harness on some kind of support is key to making the harness last. (I kind of figured you would have it well thought out). I still prefer conduit, since I have no worries about chafe or halyard <> harness dances inside the mast (the harness always looses). FWIW: If you use conduit, get Schedule 10 PVC drainage pipe. "Real" conduit is much heavier than you need. We get 10 and 20 foot lengths to reduce the number of joints inside the masts. Mom made it in last night. 1:15 late ... and it took 45 minutes to get her bag ... and the food on the plane was spoiled ... no meals ... her first time flying first class ... sigh .... Merry Christmas Everyone! Randy
You should do a small write-up and a sketch or two. Hanging the harness on some kind of support is key to making the harness last. (I kind of figured you would have it well thought out). I still prefer conduit, since I have no worries about chafe or halyard <> harness dances inside the mast (the harness always looses). FWIW: If you use conduit, get Schedule 10 PVC drainage pipe. "Real" conduit is much heavier than you need. We get 10 and 20 foot lengths to reduce the number of joints inside the masts. Mom made it in last night. 1:15 late ... and it took 45 minutes to get her bag ... and the food on the plane was spoiled ... no meals ... her first time flying first class ... sigh .... Merry Christmas Everyone! Randy
Randy, My halyards are external so that isn't
a concern. My "A" frame is paired 2x4's nailed and glued and hinged at the top with a ten inch strap hinge bent to wrap around the top of the "A" frame legs. The sheaves are carried in an oak open top block with high cheeks. I placed hounds on the "A" frame legs and guy it with 3/16 galvanized wire rope and 1/4 turnbuckles. I have strong points on deck for attachment. There is no need to slack the lower aft shrouds and the uppers are loosened only a couple of turns. That keeps the mast from wandering sideways. The loads involved are just the weight of one end of the mast times the ratio of the length of the mast divided by the height of the "A" frame. In my case the mast is thirty-three feet and the "A" frame is fourteen feet so the strain on the halyard is about 2.4 times the weight of one end of the mast. The entire mast weighs less than 100 pounds. The "A" frame must be stable and strong, the force down will only be about equal to the weight of the mast but fourteen feet is a long stick and it must not be allowed to bend.
a concern. My "A" frame is paired 2x4's nailed and glued and hinged at the top with a ten inch strap hinge bent to wrap around the top of the "A" frame legs. The sheaves are carried in an oak open top block with high cheeks. I placed hounds on the "A" frame legs and guy it with 3/16 galvanized wire rope and 1/4 turnbuckles. I have strong points on deck for attachment. There is no need to slack the lower aft shrouds and the uppers are loosened only a couple of turns. That keeps the mast from wandering sideways. The loads involved are just the weight of one end of the mast times the ratio of the length of the mast divided by the height of the "A" frame. In my case the mast is thirty-three feet and the "A" frame is fourteen feet so the strain on the halyard is about 2.4 times the weight of one end of the mast. The entire mast weighs less than 100 pounds. The "A" frame must be stable and strong, the force down will only be about equal to the weight of the mast but fourteen feet is a long stick and it must not be allowed to bend.
Loose conduit in Mast
Scott, Thanks for your reply. My mast was down two years ago and I'm hoping to eliminate the procedure this year. Will post any lessons learned through the experience
Scott, Thanks for your reply. My mast was down two years ago and I'm hoping to eliminate the procedure this year. Will post any lessons learned through the experience
electrical conduit inside mast loose
RANDY Thanks for your input on loose conduit inside mast problem. I'm still hoping to solve the problem without taking down the mast but I may find it required when all is done.
RANDY Thanks for your input on loose conduit inside mast problem. I'm still hoping to solve the problem without taking down the mast but I may find it required when all is done.
MOODY BUCCANEER
MOODY, YOU seem to have a great grasp of problem solving on sailing vessels. Thanks for your reply. It does not appear that a repair without lowering the mast is going to do the trick.
MOODY, YOU seem to have a great grasp of problem solving on sailing vessels. Thanks for your reply. It does not appear that a repair without lowering the mast is going to do the trick.
Donalex - Loose Conduit In Mast
Donalex Boat with loose conduit in mast ie a Newport 27 MkIII made by Capital Yachts in s. California. Does this add any addittional light on subject?
Donalex Boat with loose conduit in mast ie a Newport 27 MkIII made by Capital Yachts in s. California. Does this add any addittional light on subject?
Moody Buccaneer - electrical conduit loose in mast
Moody: Thanks for your reply to my problem. Since my Newport 27 has external halyards, I was hoping that the existing conduit could be refastened inside the mast while the boat is in drydock for the winter at Tahoe. Do you have any ideas for refastening from outside. Sorry for the long delay in responding but this is SKI SEASON in Tahoe so I'm looking for a spring solution and I'm not in constant contact with my e-mail. But do appreciate your input. We could use some of that Colorado snow that missed California!!!!!
Moody: Thanks for your reply to my problem. Since my Newport 27 has external halyards, I was hoping that the existing conduit could be refastened inside the mast while the boat is in drydock for the winter at Tahoe. Do you have any ideas for refastening from outside. Sorry for the long delay in responding but this is SKI SEASON in Tahoe so I'm looking for a spring solution and I'm not in constant contact with my e-mail. But do appreciate your input. We could use some of that Colorado snow that missed California!!!!!
Sure
If the conduit is fastened to the mast with rivets, you should be able to see a row of rivets going up the mast. If the conduit has broken loose it is either because one or more of the rivets have broken loose or because the conduit has gotten brittle over time and has broken loose from the rivets. The cure is to re-rivet the conduit. Since you can tell from the rivets where the conduit is supposed to be, I'd check to see if the rivets are loose. If there are still some solid rivets, assume that the conduit is still fixed at that point. Drill out a rivet and look inside the mast with a flashlight to see if you can see the conduit. If the conduit is where it should be, drill a second hole a few inches up or down from the rivet hole you just drilled out and about an inch to one side. Use a stiff wire bent into a hook shape to pull the conduit back to the mast (you should be able to line the hole in the conduit up with the rivet hole you drilled out). Pop a new rivet into the conduit and move on to the next rivet. repeat the process until the conduit is secure again. Fill the off line holes with short aluminum rivets to complete the repair. If you are very lucky the conduit will be loose at the bottom of the mast and still attached at the top. Gravity will help as you work your way down. If the conduit is loose at the top, you may have a hard time snagging it with your wire to hold it against the mast while you re-rivet it. If there is no line of rivets up the mast to show you where the conduit is, you really don't have any idea where it is now or where it was supposed to be. If it's completely loose it is probably stressing the wire harness and if you don't find a way to get it back pretty close to where it was, (and you don't know where that is) you have a good chance that the wiring will fail soon. At best, it is a fussy job with the mast in the boat. I can have the mast out of a boat in 45 minutes to an hour, so I always prefer to do the work with the mast out. Customers get billed by the hour and I can always save them money on that sort of work by pulling the mast, making the repair and re-stepping rather than trying to do it from a bosun's chair. For some reason, many people don't like the idea of pulling the mast and that decision almost always costs them more money. We once had a customer that wanted mast steps installed on his 45foot mast and was adamant about not pulling the mast out of the boat. I like to see mast steps every 18" or so, that meant 30 steps. Each step required 3 screws. 3 holes drilled and tapped at 6 minutes a screw times 30 steps is 9 hours just to drill and tap the holes. When the work is done with the mast in the boat, you need two riggers. One in the chair and one to belay him and hand tools etc back and forth ... now we are at 18 hours for the job just to drill and tap the holes. At $75/hr that's $1350 in labour with no extra time to layout and measure for where the steps are going to be placed. Sure enough the job took 3 days to finish. If the mast had come out of the boat, one man could have done the steps and our customer would have saved hundreds of dollars. Later that year, the same customer had us re-install the radar ... again the mast was to be left in the boat ... took two of us 7 hours to fight the harness into the mast, drill an exit hole for the harness in the bilge and splice the harness back together. If they had just pulled the mast and done it all at once they would have saved over a thousand ... go figure ... I guess sailors are made of money ...
If the conduit is fastened to the mast with rivets, you should be able to see a row of rivets going up the mast. If the conduit has broken loose it is either because one or more of the rivets have broken loose or because the conduit has gotten brittle over time and has broken loose from the rivets. The cure is to re-rivet the conduit. Since you can tell from the rivets where the conduit is supposed to be, I'd check to see if the rivets are loose. If there are still some solid rivets, assume that the conduit is still fixed at that point. Drill out a rivet and look inside the mast with a flashlight to see if you can see the conduit. If the conduit is where it should be, drill a second hole a few inches up or down from the rivet hole you just drilled out and about an inch to one side. Use a stiff wire bent into a hook shape to pull the conduit back to the mast (you should be able to line the hole in the conduit up with the rivet hole you drilled out). Pop a new rivet into the conduit and move on to the next rivet. repeat the process until the conduit is secure again. Fill the off line holes with short aluminum rivets to complete the repair. If you are very lucky the conduit will be loose at the bottom of the mast and still attached at the top. Gravity will help as you work your way down. If the conduit is loose at the top, you may have a hard time snagging it with your wire to hold it against the mast while you re-rivet it. If there is no line of rivets up the mast to show you where the conduit is, you really don't have any idea where it is now or where it was supposed to be. If it's completely loose it is probably stressing the wire harness and if you don't find a way to get it back pretty close to where it was, (and you don't know where that is) you have a good chance that the wiring will fail soon. At best, it is a fussy job with the mast in the boat. I can have the mast out of a boat in 45 minutes to an hour, so I always prefer to do the work with the mast out. Customers get billed by the hour and I can always save them money on that sort of work by pulling the mast, making the repair and re-stepping rather than trying to do it from a bosun's chair. For some reason, many people don't like the idea of pulling the mast and that decision almost always costs them more money. We once had a customer that wanted mast steps installed on his 45foot mast and was adamant about not pulling the mast out of the boat. I like to see mast steps every 18" or so, that meant 30 steps. Each step required 3 screws. 3 holes drilled and tapped at 6 minutes a screw times 30 steps is 9 hours just to drill and tap the holes. When the work is done with the mast in the boat, you need two riggers. One in the chair and one to belay him and hand tools etc back and forth ... now we are at 18 hours for the job just to drill and tap the holes. At $75/hr that's $1350 in labour with no extra time to layout and measure for where the steps are going to be placed. Sure enough the job took 3 days to finish. If the mast had come out of the boat, one man could have done the steps and our customer would have saved hundreds of dollars. Later that year, the same customer had us re-install the radar ... again the mast was to be left in the boat ... took two of us 7 hours to fight the harness into the mast, drill an exit hole for the harness in the bilge and splice the harness back together. If they had just pulled the mast and done it all at once they would have saved over a thousand ... go figure ... I guess sailors are made of money ...
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