Dutchman system or Lazy Jacks?

Apr 2, 2013
15
Catalina 22 Annapolis
I just purchased a Hunter 25.5. I want to be able to single hand safely, and I am considering the Dutchman system. At first look, it seems better than Lazy Jacks. Can anyone weigh in on this? If you have one, are you satisfied with it?
Which is better, the Dutchman or Lazy Jacks?
 
Sep 6, 2011
82
Oday 322 Hawkestone YC Lake Simcoe
I had to go look up what a Dutchman system is and although it looks to be pretty good I still prefer my lazy jacks. On my boat the jacks are used to not only guide the sail down but also they are used to hold up the sail bag/cover and I can easily and quickly bring the sail down and stowed in about one to two minutes by myself.
 

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May 25, 2004
441
Catalina 400 mkII Harbor
i had both on bigger boats, both had full batten sails. first i had lazy jacks, i installed my self, a harken kit i bought on ebay. the installation went quick and easy, system worked well except an occasional catch of a full batten.

i now have the dutchman system which came with the boat, works great. not sure what they cost but am sure that it is much more than the lazy jacks. i think you also want a adjustable topping lift to make sure it works as it should.

so in conclusion. the lazy jacks go on in a couple of hours, the kit would cost less the $200. the dutchman, not sure of the price but you would have to alter the sail. so an added cost there.

i know what i would do, but its a personal preference decision.

mike
 
Sep 25, 2008
7,360
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
I had to go look up what a Dutchman system is and although it looks to be pretty good I still prefer my lazy jacks. On my boat the jacks are used to not only guide the sail down but also they are used to hold up the sail bag/cover and I can easily and quickly bring the sail down and stowed in about one to two minutes by myself.
A Dutchman system does the same thing.

Having had both, I prefer the Dutchman although this is largely a matter of personal preference.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Take a look at this system: http://ezjax.com

Can be 'stowable' (along the boom and mast).
My DIY system is very similar to this, using mini bullet blocks instead of rings; plus, it has a double line with two part mini bullet block on the lines closest to the mast to hold up the part of the sail that has the most weight.
 
Feb 10, 2004
4,102
Hunter 40.5 Warwick, RI
I had a lazy jack system on a previous boat with partial battens. It worked fine as I remember.

On my current boat with a full batten main, I have the Dutchman system that was OEM. I have found that the Dutchman has a few issues that detract from its operation.

First, it must be set up exactly right. Each year I go through a setup and adjustment and I usually don't get it right. Even after 16 years! During the season I usually make one or more adjustments. Contrary to what the Dutchman literature claims, I somehow can't get my main to take a "set" and drop neatly. After dropping I always have to straighten all of the flakes from luff to leach, and often the flakes fall on the wrong side of the boom requiring the sail be pulled from one side to the other. If I could only get this thing adjusted right I think it would work as advertised.

Second, the plastic disks that are snapped and glued together on the sail don't stay attached. Almost every year I have to replace one or more or re-attach if possible. These disks are $20 each and they are a total PITA. When I had Sailcare service my sails last winter, they found a number of them loose and suggested that instead of replacing them (for $200-300) that I have simple reinforced grommets installed for the control lines to run through the sail. After a year of use, I find that the grommets are a much better solution than the disks. I wish I had Sailcare remove and replace all of the disks with grommets because I now have at least one more that is loose.

Third, the sail cover is a nuisance to install because of the control lines. The sail cover has zippers that close slots that the control lines pass through. Installing a regular sail cover with lazy jacks is much easier.

Lastly, although minor, the control lines collect dirt and this transfers to the sail causing vertical dark lines. If you are anal about keeping you boat looking nice, this will bother you.

Bottom line, I would go with lazy jacks.
 
Sep 25, 2008
1,096
CS 30 Toronto
I use a retractable lazyjack system. It's tie to the mast most of the time with a single sail tie to hold the sail to the boom. To raise sail, just remove the sail tie. Nothing to chafe the sail while saling.

When I need to dose the sail, unclip the lazy jack from the mast and tighten it. The sail just drop into the cradle. Return to the dock, flake the sail and tie with sail ties. Release the lazy jack and tie to the mast and then put the cover on.

In summary, the lazyjack is used only when dosing the sail. All other time tie to the mast.

IMHO there is no good reason to keep the lazyjack on while sailing. It just get in the way.
 
May 17, 2004
2,110
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Here's the "do it yourself" system I used on my Catalina 30. http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/doityourself/lazyjack/lazyjack1.htm

I didn't like the control lines that ran from the mast to the end of the boom so I ran the 2 lines down the front of the mast to a "Y" that ended at a cleat. The system folded neatly to the booom when not in use. The hardest part was determining where to place the eye straps so the sail flaked properly -- I had to fool with it a couple of times to get it right.
 

Bosman

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Oct 24, 2010
346
Solina 27 Wabamun, Alberta
Having used lazy jack system in the past, for the last 4 seasons I used lazy jack with integrated sail cover system. I will never go back to any other setup. While some people complain of lazy jacks being a problem while raising the sail (my main has full battens), possibility of simply lowering the main into the lazy bag and closing the zipper is, for me, essential. While I sail with the "admiral", most of time I am single handling the boat.
 

Tom J

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Sep 30, 2008
2,324
Catalina 310 Quincy, MA
My Catalina came with the Dutchman system, and it works fine for me. Just head up, tighten up the topping lift, and drop the main. If I didn't have either system, I would go with the lazy jacks for ease of installation, no need to modify the mainsail or topping lift.
 
Dec 2, 2003
480
Catalina C-320 Washington, NC
My sailing experience goes back to wooden masts, hemp rope and canvas sails. I have owned, made or used every form of sail managment described here plus a couple that weren't except for boom furling and jacks with an incorporated cover. Our C-320 came with the Dutchman system and I prefer it substantially over every type that I've owned. I had some problems intiailly. After reading the directions, I had zippers put in my cover which eliminated the need to adjust it except after removing the sail. The sail needs a little straightening before putting the cover on becuse though it develops some memory, there are no hard creases (which is better for the sail). I find that it is much easier to get a neatly flaked main than with jacks. We've sailed with it for 10 years now with no issues and I am a fan.

Were we to start from scratch now, my preference would be for a furling boom if the budget allowed. If not, I would like sail a boat with jacks and the incorporated zippered cover in order to evaluate that system on a windy day as these looks to me to be a real improvement by avoiding having to stow and retrieve the cover every time. If it proved out in practice as it appears that it should, that would likely be my second choice.
 
Jul 1, 1998
3,062
Hunter Legend 35 Poulsbo/Semiahmoo WA
Dutchman lines

Rich - after reading your post I have a few ideas. First off, I've got an OEM Dutchman on our boat and it was one of the early models from 1988. The vertical lines are essentially small diameter lifelines, the vinyl coated type with stainless steel cable inside while the newer models are, I believe, monofilament.

First, it must be set up exactly right. Each year I go through a setup and adjustment and I usually don't get it right. Even after 16 years! During the season I usually make one or more adjustments. Contrary to what the Dutchman literature claims, I somehow can't get my main to take a "set" and drop neatly. After dropping I always have to straighten all of the flakes from luff to leach, and often the flakes fall on the wrong side of the boom requiring the sail be pulled from one side to the other. If I could only get this thing adjusted right I think it would work as advertised.
Since your sail is quite a bit larger and heavier than mine, I suspect the little details are more important. Okay, that said, I take our sails off every season (last year was the first time I didn't and I regret that) so, like you, setting them up the next season is always a bit of a guessing game. One of these days I'm going to remember to bring a plastic marking pen along, but everybody knows, as you get older that becomes harder to do.

With regard to flaking, I've got pretty much the same issue you have. After reading this, though, I think the part of the problem may be with tightening the topping lift before dropping the sale. Maybe, instead, it should be loosened??? This way the vertical lines would be tighter and the sail would tend to stay on target instead of sliding off to one side. What do you think of that idea?

With the plastic coated lines it is somewhat easy to see where the clamps were the previous year so I kinda wing the clamping point based on that. I replaced the lines a few years ago and they are a little longer than what they should be because I was going to shorten them after using them for a bit. Never got around to it though. Just try to coil the end up in the bottom pocket but that's hard to do. Just not enough time in the day to do everything.

Second, the plastic disks that are snapped and glued together on the sail don't stay attached. Almost every year I have to replace one or more or re-attach if possible. These disks are $20 each and they are a total PITA. When I had Sailcare service my sails last winter, they found a number of them loose and suggested that instead of replacing them (for $200-300) that I have simple reinforced grommets installed for the control lines to run through the sail. After a year of use, I find that the grommets are a much better solution than the disks. I wish I had Sailcare remove and replace all of the disks with grommets because I now have at least one more that is loose.
The original system used a short strip of white webbing with a hot-knifed slit. When I bought new sails I thought about changing it but after consideration decided to stay with the same system. For me, this works really well and there has never been an issue. Nothing to come apart and will wear forever.

Edit: One thing on my To-Do list is to mark the flakes at the mast with red and green tape. I picked up some red and green tape, same kind as draft tape, from the sail loft a few years back with the intention of putting a small piece on the outside of the flake along the bolt rope to aid in identification if the flake was in the proper direction. I'll try to remember to do this in the spring. I have an out, though, because I should wait until it isn't raining so that might not be until July or August? Wait a minute,… I'll be out sailing then!

Life is too short and its hell if there is nothing on the To-Do list to do.
 
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Dec 2, 2003
480
Catalina C-320 Washington, NC
With regard to flaking, I've got pretty much the same issue you have. After reading this, though, I think the part of the problem may be with tightening the topping lift before dropping the sale. Maybe, instead, it should be loosened??? This way the vertical lines would be tighter and the sail would tend to stay on target instead of sliding off to one side. What do you think of that idea?
When the control lines are adjusted properly, vertical and parallel, they need to be taut and the boom level. If you head directly into the wind, sheet in the boom and tighten the topping lift, the sail will drop nicely on the boom and pretty much flake itself when th ehalyard is released. If you are not directly into the wind, it will catch the folds and blow the sail to the downwind side. With zippers in our cover, the control lines stay in adjustment, so all we have to do is zip the cover on.
 

Tom J

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Sep 30, 2008
2,324
Catalina 310 Quincy, MA
We also have a sail cover that zips around the Dutchman lines, making it easy to throw on the cover after a good day of sailing. We prefer to leave the main sheet loose after we head up. We have found that if the main sheet is tight, the sail will almost always blow off to the side as soon as the wind deviates from dead on. With the main sheet loose, the boom moves with the wind, and the sail drops onto it. The weight of the boom seems to be enough to keep the topping lift tight.
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,496
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
Dutchman or Lazy Jacks?
I liked the Dutchman by Mark 25 came with. It was a large main and a small boat. You needed a way to restrict it. In retrospect I liked it better than my in mast furling in the 356. Yes, you probably have to throw some flakes back on the boom but how hard is that?
I've sailed many boats with lazy jacks and have thought the Dutchman was easier and neater. The lazy jacks collect the main like a bag of diapers. But to each there own.
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
I had a Dutchman system on my H'31. I really liked the system and when I had a new mainsail built I had another Dutchman installed. Yes there are issues if it is not adjusted properly, but once you get this done they work well.

I currently have a "Jack" system on my HV'36. We have a full batten main. If you do NOT have a retractable system and full batten main it is a SOB to try to raise the without catching the battens in the jacks.

IF you decide to also have a stack pack type system (jack system & mainsail cover) it is worth using that type of system.

The regular jack system is inexpensive compared to the Dutchman ($200 vs $500 est).

Mack Pack makes a system that is very economical. Many of the sail mfg charge over $100/lineal foot for the "Pack" systems. So everyone has different priorities and budgets so you need to evaluate the different options.
 

ebsail

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Nov 28, 2010
241
O day 25 Nyack. New York
Had a Dutchman system on my Ericson 35 for 9 years and loved it. The main adjustment to get right is; When the sail is up and drawing, the topping lift should be slack and the verticals should also be slack. The sail is holding up the boom. When the sail is being lowered, the verticals AND the topping lift should be tight due to the weight of the boom. The mainsheet should be loose and the boat into the wind. Once adjusted to this set up, (about 10 minutes of work) no further adjustment is neccessary. The topping lift will be set for the season. The sail will flake itself because the weight of the boom is holding the vericals tight and straight and the sail will need almost no adjustment to be ready to cover. Great system when single handing. The sail cover will however need zippers.
 

gepps

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Nov 27, 2013
2
HUNTER 336 TOPPING, VA
I am a new Hunter 336 owner. We have the Dutchman system and as compared to Lazy Jacks I've had in the past, the Dutchman on our boat makes me want to drink. Our mainsail is heavy and hard to hoist generally, and the Dutchman impedes the process. Dousing the main quickly is not possible on our system. It is perhaps out of alignment, and I am not experienced enough to adjust it. I will go back to the Lazy Jacks this sailing season.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
A downside to 'the dutchman system' is the inability to occasionally over-stress the mainsheet ... the damn perfectly adjusted 'topping lift' HAS to be adjusted/loosened so that the boom aft end can be forced lower than 'horizontal', with the now loosened topping lift the dutchman will/can also 'relax' so that one can 'pull REAL hard' on the mainsheet (which causes the mainsail leech/roach to 'cup up towards windward' so that you can POWER PINCH --- like a giant aircraft with its 'flaps' full down). Plus, Those with rigid boom vangs usually always take the pledge: never to have a damn limiting 'topping lift' ever again ... its a royal PITA and does limit the 'adjustability' that allows 'shaping' of the mainsail while 'on the fly' sailing.

Most of the 'lazy jack' systems are functionally independent of the topping lift .... and allow you to over-stress that mainsheet to your hearts content either to 'power pinch' or just 'show off' about how far you can heel your boat over, etc. The "dutchman" limits you to a single horizontal boom position, unless you dont mind constantly futzing around with the topping lift adjustment while youre sailing.
 
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