Can someone familiar with the Dutchman system tell me what the sail grommets look like? Are they simple brass grommets similar to reef tie cringles or are they "special"? If they aren't standard brass grommets, can you think of a non-Dutchman source for these items or of a suitable substitute? I'd like to avoid spending $340 for something that seems very simple to build one's self out of misc pieces/parts.
- Status
Mine are not brass
The top gromets appear to be brass but the subsequent gromets are large plastic discs with a slot to sew the line through. I can't help with a location of other sources.
The top gromets appear to be brass but the subsequent gromets are large plastic discs with a slot to sew the line through. I can't help with a location of other sources.
How large?
Mat, How large are the plastic discs? 1"? 2"? Are they sewn in or pressed together from two parts? Were sail material reinforcement patches added to the sail for each of the grommets/discs?
Mat, How large are the plastic discs? 1"? 2"? Are they sewn in or pressed together from two parts? Were sail material reinforcement patches added to the sail for each of the grommets/discs?
They are plastic.
Doug: They are plastic. They are about the size of a silver dollar (maybe a little larger). They actually have a slit in them (not a round hole). There is an attachment on the topping lift to hold the lines 2 or 3 depending on the size of the sail. There are also pockets to hold the line on the boom end. These pockets have another disk that has the line captured so you can adjust the tension and store the extra line. Unless you are very good with layout and sewing, this is a task that needs some real expertise. The entire idea of the Dutchman is the fact that the sail flakes when dropped. When you are done sailing, it really only needs to be made tidy and secured with your sail ties. The flaking has been done. PS: All of the Dutchman parts are copyrighted or pattened, so I doubt you are going to be able to find any of this stuff on the open market. I have seen some imiation but they looked crude, to say the least.
Doug: They are plastic. They are about the size of a silver dollar (maybe a little larger). They actually have a slit in them (not a round hole). There is an attachment on the topping lift to hold the lines 2 or 3 depending on the size of the sail. There are also pockets to hold the line on the boom end. These pockets have another disk that has the line captured so you can adjust the tension and store the extra line. Unless you are very good with layout and sewing, this is a task that needs some real expertise. The entire idea of the Dutchman is the fact that the sail flakes when dropped. When you are done sailing, it really only needs to be made tidy and secured with your sail ties. The flaking has been done. PS: All of the Dutchman parts are copyrighted or pattened, so I doubt you are going to be able to find any of this stuff on the open market. I have seen some imiation but they looked crude, to say the least.
Thanks Steve
Thanks for the info. I've looked around a bit on the net and so far haven't seen grommets with vertical slits. I'm not too concerned by the layout issue. The principle is pretty simple: the grommets should be in column vertically and each row should be at the same height on the sail as the sail slides. (My sail has 13 slides, including the one at the headboard.) When the sail drops, the folds in the sail are halfway between the slides, and alternate from one side to the other. I already have my sail pretty well "trained" as far as the flake/fold marks go, it's just a matter of keeping it all on top of the boom! I don't want it to look crappy and I think it's probably important to get the right kind of grommets so that there aren't any chafing issues. I'll keep hunting or bite the bullet and buy the official versions from Dutchman.
Thanks for the info. I've looked around a bit on the net and so far haven't seen grommets with vertical slits. I'm not too concerned by the layout issue. The principle is pretty simple: the grommets should be in column vertically and each row should be at the same height on the sail as the sail slides. (My sail has 13 slides, including the one at the headboard.) When the sail drops, the folds in the sail are halfway between the slides, and alternate from one side to the other. I already have my sail pretty well "trained" as far as the flake/fold marks go, it's just a matter of keeping it all on top of the boom! I don't want it to look crappy and I think it's probably important to get the right kind of grommets so that there aren't any chafing issues. I'll keep hunting or bite the bullet and buy the official versions from Dutchman.
Don't know if you can buy them.....
Doug: I do not know if you can even buy the stuff from the Dutchman. I thought that this is one of the products that he only sells through Sail Lofts. Some of his other stuff is easily user installed. We have had the Dutchman Flaking system on two sails. I would not consider having a sail without it (after having it). Good luck.
Doug: I do not know if you can even buy the stuff from the Dutchman. I thought that this is one of the products that he only sells through Sail Lofts. Some of his other stuff is easily user installed. We have had the Dutchman Flaking system on two sails. I would not consider having a sail without it (after having it). Good luck.
I contacted them
Steve, They're happy to sell the kits to consumers. I might give them a call and see if they'll just sell the grommets, though... An old thread in the archives mentioned that the plastic grommets have a tendency to come off. Has that happened in your experience?
Steve, They're happy to sell the kits to consumers. I might give them a call and see if they'll just sell the grommets, though... An old thread in the archives mentioned that the plastic grommets have a tendency to come off. Has that happened in your experience?
Grommet Fallout
On my sail the Dutchman grommets came apart so I had the sailmaker reglue them, only to have them come apart again. Maybe I should have them drill holes in the grommets and sew them together. Pop rivets would cause too much wear on the sail. Need to use SUPER DUPER glue!
On my sail the Dutchman grommets came apart so I had the sailmaker reglue them, only to have them come apart again. Maybe I should have them drill holes in the grommets and sew them together. Pop rivets would cause too much wear on the sail. Need to use SUPER DUPER glue!
Rows of grommets?
Doug, you write that "...the grommets should be in column vertically and each row should be at the same height on the sail as the sail slides. (My sail has 13 slides, including the one at the headboard.)..." . On my L37, there are much less grommets than rows of sail slides. I don't know why, but this is a design that has been tried and true tested. Check again at the next system that you see and count the slides and grommets on the sail. It may be a factor. Good Luck
Doug, you write that "...the grommets should be in column vertically and each row should be at the same height on the sail as the sail slides. (My sail has 13 slides, including the one at the headboard.)..." . On my L37, there are much less grommets than rows of sail slides. I don't know why, but this is a design that has been tried and true tested. Check again at the next system that you see and count the slides and grommets on the sail. It may be a factor. Good Luck
Webbing
In the late '80 and early '90s the Dutchman system used short pieces of probably Nylon webbing instead of the plastic parts. The webbing pieces were about 1-inch or so wide and 3 to 4 inches long and sewn to the sail in a horizontal position. A horizontal slit about 1.5 or 2 inches long was hot knifed into the webbing for the vertical Dutchman line. The webbing material has worked very effectively for me with no chafe or any other problems what so ever over a 12 year period. I'm on my second mainsail and opted for the same setup vice the new one. The webbing used is the same that all sailmakers use so it was readily available and the cost minimal. This may be an option to consider.
In the late '80 and early '90s the Dutchman system used short pieces of probably Nylon webbing instead of the plastic parts. The webbing pieces were about 1-inch or so wide and 3 to 4 inches long and sewn to the sail in a horizontal position. A horizontal slit about 1.5 or 2 inches long was hot knifed into the webbing for the vertical Dutchman line. The webbing material has worked very effectively for me with no chafe or any other problems what so ever over a 12 year period. I'm on my second mainsail and opted for the same setup vice the new one. The webbing used is the same that all sailmakers use so it was readily available and the cost minimal. This may be an option to consider.
# of rows & webbing & slit orientation
Paul: I guess I haven't looked really closely at a sail with Dutchman installed. If you don't have as many rows of grommets as sail slides, then I would imagine that the "trained" flakes would be rather large. I can see that fewer rows would have less friction, but I'd don't want 4' wide flakes, either. John: That webbing idea sounds great! I presume the webbing is on both sides of the sail, correct? I'm rather surprised that they were mounted and slit horizontally instead of vertically, though. Steve Dion: Are the slits in the plastic grommets oriented vertically or horizontally?
Paul: I guess I haven't looked really closely at a sail with Dutchman installed. If you don't have as many rows of grommets as sail slides, then I would imagine that the "trained" flakes would be rather large. I can see that fewer rows would have less friction, but I'd don't want 4' wide flakes, either. John: That webbing idea sounds great! I presume the webbing is on both sides of the sail, correct? I'm rather surprised that they were mounted and slit horizontally instead of vertically, though. Steve Dion: Are the slits in the plastic grommets oriented vertically or horizontally?
Webbing and Flakes
Correct assumption - the webbing was installed on both sides of the sail cloth. If you have any interest in how it looks just look around the marina for an older Hunter. Flaking: Although I never paid any attention to how many slits there were in comparison to the number of slugs, I'm positive it's a 1:1 ratio. The sail flakes one direction at the slug and with the next slug it flakes the other direction. The flakes are large enough as it is so I wouldn't recommend going any larger and I don't see how it would work with anything other than an interger ratio of the number of slugs. If the sail has full battens they should be on the top of the boom when flaked. In this case, the slits will be just under or just over the battens. It would be a good idea to put a small patch of chafe protection where the Dutchman line passes the batten pocket. Sailmakers have white adhesive-backed material which should be perfect for this purpose. Heck, make your own with some sail mending tape available at the chandlery.
Correct assumption - the webbing was installed on both sides of the sail cloth. If you have any interest in how it looks just look around the marina for an older Hunter. Flaking: Although I never paid any attention to how many slits there were in comparison to the number of slugs, I'm positive it's a 1:1 ratio. The sail flakes one direction at the slug and with the next slug it flakes the other direction. The flakes are large enough as it is so I wouldn't recommend going any larger and I don't see how it would work with anything other than an interger ratio of the number of slugs. If the sail has full battens they should be on the top of the boom when flaked. In this case, the slits will be just under or just over the battens. It would be a good idea to put a small patch of chafe protection where the Dutchman line passes the batten pocket. Sailmakers have white adhesive-backed material which should be perfect for this purpose. Heck, make your own with some sail mending tape available at the chandlery.
- Status