Dust off the dividers and parallel rule.

[Roger Long]

Why am I surprised that the gubmint is screwing up the maintenance and upgrading of the GPS system as badly as the Coast Guard fleet modernization? We could start seeing gaps and outages within a year or two. I'm glad I grew up with clock and compass navigation.

http://www.gao.gov/cgi-bin/getrpt?GAO-09-325


Highlights:

http://www.gao.gov/highlights/d09670thigh.pdf

No wonder the Europeans feel like they need to have their own system.

 

[sailingdog]

That's why I have paper charts aboard..

 

[Bad Obsession]

I know my way around the places that I usually go and only supplement with GPS to hit the rum line. That being said, nothing will ever replace having paper charts.

 

[tsmwebb]

Why am I surprised that the gubmint is screwing up the maintenance and upgrading of the GPS ...

Be fair. There wouldn't be any GPS w/o the gubmint [sic], the DOD and the Air-force. They created the system; by providing it to civilians for FREE they created the demand for the system and enabled the creation of the industry to support that demand. Put that in your private sector does everything better pipe and smoke it... Sure, it isn't a big surprise that they're mucking it up. But rather like dancing bears, it isn't amazing that they do badly, it amazing that they do it at all.

Don't get me wrong. I'd be really unhappy if DOD dropped the ball on GPS. But credit where credit is due.

I'm all in favor the the European system. Backup is nice. But aren't they planning to support it with user-fees?

--Tom.

 

[Roger Long]

Be fair.

I am. It's an essential characteristic of most governments and cultures; especially ours, that they are much better at building shiny things than maintaining them. Look at our bridges and other infrastructure. GPS has been around long enough and has matured to the point where that age factor is starting to show. It's happened a little faster because the life cycle of satellites is shorter than some other things.

There are a lot of pilots and sailors who are totally dependent on GPS. It's going to be very interesting if we actually have some outages.

 

[petersea]

Be fair. There wouldn't be any GPS w/o the gubmint [sic], the DOD and the Air-force. They created the system; by providing it to civilians for FREE they created the demand for the system and enabled the creation of the industry to support that demand. Put that in your private sector does everything better pipe and smoke it... ?

--Tom.

OK "BE FAIR" Who do you think PAYS for all of it ? ? ?

 

[tsmwebb]

OK "BE FAIR" Who do you think PAYS for all of it ? ? ?

Every single entity that pays taxes in the USA. And your point would be?

--Tom

 

[tsmwebb]

I am. It's an essential characteristic of most governments and cultures; especially ours, that they are much better at building shiny things than maintaining them. ...

Oh, I see your point. Fair enough, though I suspect GPS will continue on until the USA runs clean out of credit. I'm still a little edgy on this topic because when I took my Australian boater's license (so I could explore in my, at the time, non-US registered dink) the instructor as good as called me a liar when I said the GPS system was provided for free by the USA. It bothers me more than a little that our government created this amazing technology and had the good judgment to set it free into the world at large but seems to get no credit for it at all. A lot of great things have resulted from GPS and our Federal government should get kudos for doing this wonderful thing.

--Tom.

 

[Ross]

I am not going to loose any sleep over this. The whole country seems to run on crisis management. If they planned just a little bit for the future we wouldn't have infrastructure falling apart, economic catastrophes and major business failures. They have seen and identified a problem and will move heaven and hell to get it fixed while it could have been avoided by better management.

 

[Witzend]

As a society we are highly dependant on technology, well past the point of no return. GPS is the tip of the iceberg. Remove any part of our energy complex and you have pissed off hungry people, social unrest...civil war. It happened before over how we value a human life. It can happen again. Natural resources are finite and we can not feed a growing population without further advances in technology used in crop production. One of these recent advances involves the use of GPS. Just Google "GPS and Farming" and you will see what I mean. I realize these are strong statements, and left field projections, but recently I was in a public place and a rather gruff individual had struck up a discussion about the economic fallout. I asked what he was doing about it. His response, ammo and canned food. Sleep well knowing our goverement will take care of us when our streets are dark.

 

[higgs]

I, like Ross, am not going to lose any sleep over this. I was able to navigate just fine in the days prior to GPS or Loran. I can still do so at any time. Gosh, imagine actually using dead reckoning. How did Sir Chinchester ever do it?

 

[SoSound]

Down off the soapbox...

My wife and I are novice sailors (and boaters in general). Our first experience with charts and navigation came when we chartered a small power catamaran in the San Juan Islands... The charter company's orientation was adamant, "do NOT rely solely on GPS", so we learned to read charts and hired a companion 'skipper' for our first day out. We only used the GPS after that as an informed reference if there was some 'disagreement' as to what we were looking at (chart books don't have a zoom button ).

Beside that, I think one of the greatest parts about sailing and navigating is experiencing and living the things that I learned about in physical science classes... This has got to be one of the coolest activities EVER! (no flames please, that's intended as a 'duh' statement - if sailing and experiencing nature weren't so interesting and rewarding, we'd all be living virtual reality on 16:9 HD by now... Hey, that wasn't the Nebuchadnezzar, was it Neo? )

Dave

 

[higgs]

Good for you SoSound

 

[Roger Long]

The charter company's orientation was adamant, "do NOT rely solely on GPS

I actually do now rely almost solely on GPS with a paper chart kept handy for the larger picture and planning ahead (Where would be a good place to go tonight?). There is a big difference however between doing that with years of non-electronic experience in the brain and just going out with no knowledge or skills other than the GPS and its manual as many people now do.

I'm doing pretty much the same thing I used to do on paper but with the electronic boat icon substituting for the wet finger smudge on the course line. All the mental habits of old are still active: Are those two islands supposed to be lining up right now? Is that white flash of breaking water supposed to be over there? Is the right landmark still dead ahead on the proper course?

I believe in and advise keeping a running pencil line plot on the paper but I seldom, if ever, make marks on my charts any more. Partly it's having the chart books inside their plastic covers but mostly it's just that things are too damn busy in Maine with all the pots and complex geography. Better to have my head outside and ahead of the boat.

For complex fog or night legs, I do write down a list of courses, marks, and ETA's so I'll have something to fall back on if the GPS quits. With GPS, you are much more likely, almost certain if you are using it right, to be on your planned course than in the old days of setting out with just the compass and an estimate or prediction of the current set. Continuing on the course is therefor more likely to bring you to a mark where you can pick up full paper navigation.

 

[petersea]

Every single entity that pays taxes in the USA. And your point would be?

Tom, My point is just that you seam to think it is given to the public by the government for "FREE". Your original statement "by providing it to civilians for FREE". It would be called a return on your investment in the real world. I agree with you that it is a great system and I do realize it was developed and built by the U.S. government, along with a lot of "private sector " contractors, all paid with taxpayer dollars. I have no problem with that. I also don't have a problem with the government providing a taxpayer paid for service back to the taxpayer.

 

[Don12364]

Thank You America!

The rest of the world freeloads off the American GPS system. The original concept was driven by military reasons but now we guide our cars, steer our aircraft and navigate our boats using it. We also survey land and position our oil rigs.
The British authorities are very keen that we have Galileo which is the European equivalent of GPS;but only being trialled at present. Likewise the Russians have Glonass.
At a Royal Institute of Navigation meeting some time ago I pointed out that Galileo would only be necessary if we were considering going to war with the USA.
My argument won no friends!

Last week I attended a seminar on e-Loran, this being because of the paranoia resulting from the ease of jamming GPS.
Again I pointed out that jamming was only a nuisance to the aggressor because to easily jam incoming missiles was a huge benefit to anyone defending himself. Indeed every navy ship, airfield, centre of political power etc can have a little local GPS jammer and, at the flick of a switch in 'high command' all these local jammers could spring to life thus making life difficult for the attackers.
However with high powered e-Loran, and with transmitters in many different countries all with overlapping areas, the problem of protecting oneself was so great that I could foresee the military objecting to its introduction.
This idea caused a great deal of thought - but they rejected it.

So - Thank you America for the GPS - and don't worry your people will muddle through. The thought of millions of Americans getting lost on the way to the drug store will provide quite sufficient stimulus to ensure continuity of service.

 

[Capn Ellis]

There are a lot of pilots and sailors who are totally dependent on GPS. It's going to be very interesting if we actually have some outages.

On top of everything else, we're headed into another sunspot cycle that could affect all satellite communications.

 

[richk]

GPS will be around a long time. It's replaced the stars for navigation, but, fortunately not for beautiful nights on the hook.

 

[tsmwebb]

Every single entity that pays taxes in the USA. And your point would be?

Tom, My point is just that you seam to think it is given to the public by the government for "FREE". Your original statement "by providing it to civilians for FREE". It would be called a return on your investment in the real world. ...

I see. You make a good point. I was using "free" in a little different way. By free I didn't mean the system didn't cost a big (even by gov't standards) pile of money. I meant that they broadcast the unencrypted signal and didn't restrict its use or charge fees. That created the civilian market. And that was a good thing. Most of the DOD money that comes out of pockets like mine (and I presume yours) provides a lot less obvious return on investment in the civilian world... (What are you doing with your bit of the Advanced Tactical Fighter these days? ) Follow-ups to alt.rage.rage.politics.rageSomeMore?

--Tom.