im in the process of buying a 30 ft hunter 77 model but due to the low water level on lake erie have a problem I believe the boat draft is 5'3 . ia there any way you can shorten the keel put a wing or bulb on it without hurting the boats preformance. i need to get it down to about 4'3 to 4'6 at the most thanks mike mayfield email me at eriesailor@aol.com
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Jack
Not Worth The Cost
You would be better off just buying a shallow draft boat to begin with. If it is too late, not a big deal, just make sure you have the most current charts and adjust for low levels and get as much local knowedge as possible. Hopefully your marina is not affected. Just how low is it? I used to live on Lake Erie in the Buffalo harbor years ago and I was more concerned about the level rising and wiping me out.
You would be better off just buying a shallow draft boat to begin with. If it is too late, not a big deal, just make sure you have the most current charts and adjust for low levels and get as much local knowedge as possible. Hopefully your marina is not affected. Just how low is it? I used to live on Lake Erie in the Buffalo harbor years ago and I was more concerned about the level rising and wiping me out.
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Jim
A
Art Barnes
Don't do it!
Don't try and fool arount with the design of a keel. They are designed to be efficent for the boat; the numbers of your boat dictate the keel which was designed for her; capsize screen, etc. Sometimes a guy will add a little to a keel, which usually makes it a bit more stable, but a real dog at sea. But in no event do you want to shave it. Buy youself another boat with a shoal draft or consider a port a little farther away from you to do your sailing. Besides, long draft keel boats point better to windward.
Don't try and fool arount with the design of a keel. They are designed to be efficent for the boat; the numbers of your boat dictate the keel which was designed for her; capsize screen, etc. Sometimes a guy will add a little to a keel, which usually makes it a bit more stable, but a real dog at sea. But in no event do you want to shave it. Buy youself another boat with a shoal draft or consider a port a little farther away from you to do your sailing. Besides, long draft keel boats point better to windward.
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Bob Howie
Yikes! The Costs!!
Seems my alter-ego co-authority Steve Dion is on mark with the cost of re-keeling your boat, but the other guys have a point, too. The keel ain't just weight; it's a design component that goes along with everything else put in or on the boat. Typically, keels are matched for rig size as well as seakeeping capabilities. Tinker with the keel and your court disaster. But, there is a way, if you want to spend the money. First, learn the term, "hire a naval architect." Keel design is tricky biz. A winged keel, as the Aussies showed us in 1983, can do a number of good things for your boat. But, your boat BUCs out at about $16,000 regardless of what you are planning to do. Market value may be a little more than that; I just did an engine repower in my 78h30, which, by the way, has 4.5' of draft and perfect for my conditions here on Galveston Bay which is notoriously shallow particularly after a Norther blows through in winter. Anyway, I've got $22k tied up in my boat and I can get that out of it here on the local market. Just because you throw $50,000 at your boat doesn't mean it's worth $50k! Using Steve's math at Mars Metal, just casting your new keel is going to cost $9,225 minus scrap value of your existing keel and exclusive of any design and installation costs, which I would imagine will easily push your project over the $12,000 mark. Now your $16k boat is costing you $28,000. At that price, you're pretty upside down on the market value of your boat. In my mind, the older Hunter 30s are damn good boats for the buck, but you have to control your budget. Beyond a certain point, any money you put into the boat will have to be recouped in the form of "pleasure equity," i.e., you get pleasure from using the boat as modified with no expectation of ever seeing those dollars come out of it at the time of sale. In my mind, the costs of trying to retrofit a different keel to such an elderly boat is probably not the best financial decision one can make and you'd probably be much better off taking the advice of the others in this column who suggest looking for a boat, including the shoal-draft Hunters, already fit with a shoal-draft keel than trying to modify the one you are looking at. Good luck.
Seems my alter-ego co-authority Steve Dion is on mark with the cost of re-keeling your boat, but the other guys have a point, too. The keel ain't just weight; it's a design component that goes along with everything else put in or on the boat. Typically, keels are matched for rig size as well as seakeeping capabilities. Tinker with the keel and your court disaster. But, there is a way, if you want to spend the money. First, learn the term, "hire a naval architect." Keel design is tricky biz. A winged keel, as the Aussies showed us in 1983, can do a number of good things for your boat. But, your boat BUCs out at about $16,000 regardless of what you are planning to do. Market value may be a little more than that; I just did an engine repower in my 78h30, which, by the way, has 4.5' of draft and perfect for my conditions here on Galveston Bay which is notoriously shallow particularly after a Norther blows through in winter. Anyway, I've got $22k tied up in my boat and I can get that out of it here on the local market. Just because you throw $50,000 at your boat doesn't mean it's worth $50k! Using Steve's math at Mars Metal, just casting your new keel is going to cost $9,225 minus scrap value of your existing keel and exclusive of any design and installation costs, which I would imagine will easily push your project over the $12,000 mark. Now your $16k boat is costing you $28,000. At that price, you're pretty upside down on the market value of your boat. In my mind, the older Hunter 30s are damn good boats for the buck, but you have to control your budget. Beyond a certain point, any money you put into the boat will have to be recouped in the form of "pleasure equity," i.e., you get pleasure from using the boat as modified with no expectation of ever seeing those dollars come out of it at the time of sale. In my mind, the costs of trying to retrofit a different keel to such an elderly boat is probably not the best financial decision one can make and you'd probably be much better off taking the advice of the others in this column who suggest looking for a boat, including the shoal-draft Hunters, already fit with a shoal-draft keel than trying to modify the one you are looking at. Good luck.
ya Bob....
Bob: Actually Mike can just cut off (x) inches of his keel and replace it with a bulb that Mars would cast for him. I have to agree that doing this would need to have a little engineering done (Maybe Mars can do that for him) but the real factor is the bottom line cost and is the boat going to be as good or better. I suppose that it could be as good as it is now but I would doubt that it would be any better with a foot removed even if it has the same ballast. I think that some of the newer Hunters could take advantage of such a modification (adding ballast, not shortening the keel).
Bob: Actually Mike can just cut off (x) inches of his keel and replace it with a bulb that Mars would cast for him. I have to agree that doing this would need to have a little engineering done (Maybe Mars can do that for him) but the real factor is the bottom line cost and is the boat going to be as good or better. I suppose that it could be as good as it is now but I would doubt that it would be any better with a foot removed even if it has the same ballast. I think that some of the newer Hunters could take advantage of such a modification (adding ballast, not shortening the keel).
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Bob Howie
Modifying the keel
Steve, you're absolutely right. But, I think if you did as you suggested, i.e., cut and replace with a bulb, then you are going to have to add fasteners of some kind and aren't you developing just another below-the-waterline maintenance item when we already have 'way too many? The beauty about winged and bulbed keels is that they do shorten draft without upsetting the keel-to-rig balance and, in some cases, improves their performance. Question I might have, too, is whether "we" know for sure if the '77 has the shoal or deep draft keel? Has this thing been out of the water for a looksee? I can't imagine Lake Erie being shallower than that oversized mud puddle called Galveston Bay in which I sail. I mean, GB's median depth is 10' at high tide outside the channels! A little heeling in the sailing and you kinda-sorta shorten your draft anyway. Besides, isn't tinkering with a keel regardless of the reason just too much hassle when the solution is just to find another boat?
Steve, you're absolutely right. But, I think if you did as you suggested, i.e., cut and replace with a bulb, then you are going to have to add fasteners of some kind and aren't you developing just another below-the-waterline maintenance item when we already have 'way too many? The beauty about winged and bulbed keels is that they do shorten draft without upsetting the keel-to-rig balance and, in some cases, improves their performance. Question I might have, too, is whether "we" know for sure if the '77 has the shoal or deep draft keel? Has this thing been out of the water for a looksee? I can't imagine Lake Erie being shallower than that oversized mud puddle called Galveston Bay in which I sail. I mean, GB's median depth is 10' at high tide outside the channels! A little heeling in the sailing and you kinda-sorta shorten your draft anyway. Besides, isn't tinkering with a keel regardless of the reason just too much hassle when the solution is just to find another boat?
Bob, they do it all the time.
Bob: I am NOT advocating doing this either. But Mars Metal is really well know in the industry. They have done original keels, keel add-ons and keel modifications. I think that this can be made very fool proof. Personally, I would not do this modifcation either. I would either find a new marina and find another boat. The great lakes will again have too much water and then every one will want to know how they can have a deep keel boat again.
Bob: I am NOT advocating doing this either. But Mars Metal is really well know in the industry. They have done original keels, keel add-ons and keel modifications. I think that this can be made very fool proof. Personally, I would not do this modifcation either. I would either find a new marina and find another boat. The great lakes will again have too much water and then every one will want to know how they can have a deep keel boat again.
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Bob Howie
Here's a good point to ponder
Ok, y'all...here's a piece written by Tim Schaaf who Steve D. ran into discussing a similar topic which has some bearing on the current debate. I think Tim makes some very good points so all attribution goes to Tim; I just did the cutting and pasting... Tim Schaaf writes.. "....before making these modifications. They will only up your boatspeed when well matched to the design of the keel. In addition, the added weight creates a greater load on the keelbolts when heeled, and the added stiffness increases the effective sail area for a given angle of heel. This adds loads to the rig, and if either is not designed to support it, you can loose a keel or rig. Tony Lush, a very well known sailor/engineer who WORKED for Hunter (!) tried a heavier keel on his Hunter 54 in the first Around Alone Race (then the BOC challenge) almost twenty years ago, and he lost his keel (and boat) in the Indian Ocean, so make sure your calculations are correct. Why not call Hunter? Good Luck."
Ok, y'all...here's a piece written by Tim Schaaf who Steve D. ran into discussing a similar topic which has some bearing on the current debate. I think Tim makes some very good points so all attribution goes to Tim; I just did the cutting and pasting... Tim Schaaf writes.. "....before making these modifications. They will only up your boatspeed when well matched to the design of the keel. In addition, the added weight creates a greater load on the keelbolts when heeled, and the added stiffness increases the effective sail area for a given angle of heel. This adds loads to the rig, and if either is not designed to support it, you can loose a keel or rig. Tony Lush, a very well known sailor/engineer who WORKED for Hunter (!) tried a heavier keel on his Hunter 54 in the first Around Alone Race (then the BOC challenge) almost twenty years ago, and he lost his keel (and boat) in the Indian Ocean, so make sure your calculations are correct. Why not call Hunter? Good Luck."
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Bob Howie
Mars Metal
All compliments to Mars Metal. Certainly re-keeling a boat is a known art and science and I'm not dismissing Mars Metal's ability to do the job and get it right. I'm sure they are quite capable and know what they are doing. I think we're starting to range a little afield on our friend who by now wishes he hadn't said anything! And probably wonders who the heck we all are! I think he originally asked, "Can this be done?" And the answer certainly is, "yes, it can be done," with the NASA corollary, "...if you throw enough money at it!"
All compliments to Mars Metal. Certainly re-keeling a boat is a known art and science and I'm not dismissing Mars Metal's ability to do the job and get it right. I'm sure they are quite capable and know what they are doing. I think we're starting to range a little afield on our friend who by now wishes he hadn't said anything! And probably wonders who the heck we all are! I think he originally asked, "Can this be done?" And the answer certainly is, "yes, it can be done," with the NASA corollary, "...if you throw enough money at it!"
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