on how one recovers from a spinnaker broach? This happened recently while in a race on a Beneteau 28. The guy handling the sheet just let it go, and the sail went under the boat....it was a mess. Must be a better way?
Don: Do you have any advice
- Thread starter Warren Milberg
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My experience
I'm not Don, Warren, but broaches are a way of life on the San Juan 24 I used to own and still race on. Hang on, ease everything- main and spinnaker- not let go, just ease a bunch. As soon as you come up to everything luffing get your steerage back and head down past the course you were sailing until you get everything settled down then work your way back up, trimming the sails. Try not to do it again. Small boats big spinnakers- always fun
I'm not Don, Warren, but broaches are a way of life on the San Juan 24 I used to own and still race on. Hang on, ease everything- main and spinnaker- not let go, just ease a bunch. As soon as you come up to everything luffing get your steerage back and head down past the course you were sailing until you get everything settled down then work your way back up, trimming the sails. Try not to do it again. Small boats big spinnakers- always fun
next time....
blow the vang, ease the guy so the pole goes foward, ease the sheet but not so much that you lose the end of it., the driver should be trying to drive down on the kite, keeping it in front of the boat, and hang on ( 30 sec. will fell like an eternity) and then have a beer.
blow the vang, ease the guy so the pole goes foward, ease the sheet but not so much that you lose the end of it., the driver should be trying to drive down on the kite, keeping it in front of the boat, and hang on ( 30 sec. will fell like an eternity) and then have a beer.
Mike's right...
Easing the vang immediately spills the air from the top of the main and letting the pole forward blankets the spinnaker behind the main. Then the driver needs to drive down to get the boat back under control.
Easing the vang immediately spills the air from the top of the main and letting the pole forward blankets the spinnaker behind the main. Then the driver needs to drive down to get the boat back under control.
I understand the word broach to mean
you have been rounded up, knocked on your beam ends, have the main flogging with the boom in the water, and the chute filling up with water. If that is the case, I believe letting the spinnaker sheet loose is the best fix. If the chute does go under the boat, it should be readily retrievable when the boat rights. Joe S
you have been rounded up, knocked on your beam ends, have the main flogging with the boom in the water, and the chute filling up with water. If that is the case, I believe letting the spinnaker sheet loose is the best fix. If the chute does go under the boat, it should be readily retrievable when the boat rights. Joe S
when you let the sheets fly....
as the oiginal post stated, that's what happened. He Let the sheets go and the spinny goes under the boat. Not good for the sail, slow as hell in a race, dangerous on the sea. Not to mention, letting go of the sheets will cause the kite to look like a giant flag at the top of your mast. You can not just let go of the spinnaker sheets.
as the oiginal post stated, that's what happened. He Let the sheets go and the spinny goes under the boat. Not good for the sail, slow as hell in a race, dangerous on the sea. Not to mention, letting go of the sheets will cause the kite to look like a giant flag at the top of your mast. You can not just let go of the spinnaker sheets.
Advise
Warren M: My first thought is not to get into the situation in the first place. On that note, your question reminds me of a frightful situation I was involved in during a Long Beach to Dana Point race. The first mark is about 8 to 10 miles out to sea. After turning the mark it is all downwind to Dana Point. Going back a bit. When I decided to get serious about sailing a boat I started out with sailing lessons. I took every class they offered. During the classes I thought I was the only idiot in the class that didn’t get it. Come to find out I was not alone. Anyway, to pick up my skills I decided to get into racing. I looked up the winning skippers in So Ca and called them about crew positions. We had nice conversations until the part where they asked me about my racing experience and when I told them I had none that was the end of the conversation and I never heard from them again. Kind of like asking out the best looking girl in HS and she never calls you back!! Then I saw a flyer at West Marine from a skipper that was looking for a pick up crew. I called him and he said to come on down. When I got there, again I thought I was the only sail trim idiot on the boat. Again I was wrong and was not alone. Getting back to the race. The first mark turning point is an oil island, which is on a shelf where the sea bed rises and creates swells and waves that unfortunately you can’t see from a distance. I remarked to the skipper that I noticed the front boats were turning very wide and setting spinnakers. He took that as a mistake in their judgement. Next, I told him I saw a boat cut close to the mark and it looked like he was in trouble. The skipper wasn’t listening. Anyway, in we go close to the mark. We are in a mess but he decides to set the new spinnaker, which he just bought, anyway. I’m working the traveler and standing on the cabin step. The next thing I know the wind catches the sail and the boat goes over. I’m looking directly down at the water. The skipper is madly spinning the wheel but the rudder is out of the water and nothing is happening. Somehow the boat rights itself but the wind catches the sail again and over we go and again I’m looking directly at the water again and this time I see the bow guy swim by. The next thing that happens is the new spinnaker completely rips from top to bottom and the boat comes up on its feet. I was never so glad to see that damm sail rip that anything in my sailing life. We completed the race but I never sailed with those guys again.
Warren M: My first thought is not to get into the situation in the first place. On that note, your question reminds me of a frightful situation I was involved in during a Long Beach to Dana Point race. The first mark is about 8 to 10 miles out to sea. After turning the mark it is all downwind to Dana Point. Going back a bit. When I decided to get serious about sailing a boat I started out with sailing lessons. I took every class they offered. During the classes I thought I was the only idiot in the class that didn’t get it. Come to find out I was not alone. Anyway, to pick up my skills I decided to get into racing. I looked up the winning skippers in So Ca and called them about crew positions. We had nice conversations until the part where they asked me about my racing experience and when I told them I had none that was the end of the conversation and I never heard from them again. Kind of like asking out the best looking girl in HS and she never calls you back!! Then I saw a flyer at West Marine from a skipper that was looking for a pick up crew. I called him and he said to come on down. When I got there, again I thought I was the only sail trim idiot on the boat. Again I was wrong and was not alone. Getting back to the race. The first mark turning point is an oil island, which is on a shelf where the sea bed rises and creates swells and waves that unfortunately you can’t see from a distance. I remarked to the skipper that I noticed the front boats were turning very wide and setting spinnakers. He took that as a mistake in their judgement. Next, I told him I saw a boat cut close to the mark and it looked like he was in trouble. The skipper wasn’t listening. Anyway, in we go close to the mark. We are in a mess but he decides to set the new spinnaker, which he just bought, anyway. I’m working the traveler and standing on the cabin step. The next thing I know the wind catches the sail and the boat goes over. I’m looking directly down at the water. The skipper is madly spinning the wheel but the rudder is out of the water and nothing is happening. Somehow the boat rights itself but the wind catches the sail again and over we go and again I’m looking directly at the water again and this time I see the bow guy swim by. The next thing that happens is the new spinnaker completely rips from top to bottom and the boat comes up on its feet. I was never so glad to see that damm sail rip that anything in my sailing life. We completed the race but I never sailed with those guys again.
Mea Culpa....
Don: You are certainly right about not letting such a situation develop in the first place. I have to admit to being the driver in the situation I described above. I keep learning about how really fast things happen when things go sour on the water, particularly in a race. Our boat was ahead in this race and I was just starting the turn around the mark. This was not my boat and the owner was tending the spinnaker. We were all edgy as the winds and waves were flukey. In the space of what seemed like a nanosecond, I was just about to call for the spinnaker when I looked to windward and saw a gust on the water. As I turned back toward the bow, I saw the top half of the spinnaker already deployed just as the gust hit it. The next thing the whole kite was out and we had an almost instantaneous broach with the rudder out of the water and me with no steerage. The sheet/guy was literally ripped out of the owner's hands as we drove over the sail. I think this all took place in less than 10 seconds. We were able to recover the spinnaker which had minimal damage. Such is sailing...
Don: You are certainly right about not letting such a situation develop in the first place. I have to admit to being the driver in the situation I described above. I keep learning about how really fast things happen when things go sour on the water, particularly in a race. Our boat was ahead in this race and I was just starting the turn around the mark. This was not my boat and the owner was tending the spinnaker. We were all edgy as the winds and waves were flukey. In the space of what seemed like a nanosecond, I was just about to call for the spinnaker when I looked to windward and saw a gust on the water. As I turned back toward the bow, I saw the top half of the spinnaker already deployed just as the gust hit it. The next thing the whole kite was out and we had an almost instantaneous broach with the rudder out of the water and me with no steerage. The sheet/guy was literally ripped out of the owner's hands as we drove over the sail. I think this all took place in less than 10 seconds. We were able to recover the spinnaker which had minimal damage. Such is sailing...
Broach? Knock-down?
I've always been a bit uncertain about terminology. In these two videos, the first boat is taken down sideways, and stays there, with no rounding up into the wind. The second boat rounds up without quite going over. The boom would have hit the water had it not been sheeted in so much. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99n-_Eu4-m4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQIrMSI9YBo&feature=related So, are these both broaches? Or is the first a knockdown? Or do these terms mean the same thing? A knockdown to me sounds like it would be from getting hit by a sudden gust, maybe while close-hauled. I thought a broach was associated with deep downwind troubles, involving a chute of some kind? Does either term necessarily have to have the mast head hit the water to qualify? Maybe just wetting your pants one way or another is enough?
I've always been a bit uncertain about terminology. In these two videos, the first boat is taken down sideways, and stays there, with no rounding up into the wind. The second boat rounds up without quite going over. The boom would have hit the water had it not been sheeted in so much. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99n-_Eu4-m4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQIrMSI9YBo&feature=related So, are these both broaches? Or is the first a knockdown? Or do these terms mean the same thing? A knockdown to me sounds like it would be from getting hit by a sudden gust, maybe while close-hauled. I thought a broach was associated with deep downwind troubles, involving a chute of some kind? Does either term necessarily have to have the mast head hit the water to qualify? Maybe just wetting your pants one way or another is enough?
Mike C, I hate to correct you but
a spinnaker (Traditional) only has one sheet. The line connected to the pole is called the guy. When you let the sheet (singular) fly the spinnaker dumps the wind and the water, and the boat comes back up. The spinnaker then flags between the tack at the pole, and the head at the halyard, and it is usually recoverable with no problems. Most spinnakers have a luff length controlled by the height of the mast so if the boat was upright, the spinnaker would not reach the water unless the halyard was eased. On its beam ends it could go under the side of the boat which could roll over it but It still should come free, unless the halyard was eased. Of course as Warren has now said in his latest reply, the spinnaker was not set and the halyard was not up. This could have been called just a broach (not a spinnaker broach) and may have been caused primarily by just the main. It also sounds like the spinnaker was being set without the benefit of the Genoa's wind shadow, though Warren didn't say. Normally when racing you always set your new sail before you douse your old one, so with the spinnaker, you would have the pole forward, would set the chute behind the genoa, trim the pole aft to fill the chute, and then douse the genoa. It appears that if the genoa was prematurely doused, then that was the problem. Have fun Joe S
a spinnaker (Traditional) only has one sheet. The line connected to the pole is called the guy. When you let the sheet (singular) fly the spinnaker dumps the wind and the water, and the boat comes back up. The spinnaker then flags between the tack at the pole, and the head at the halyard, and it is usually recoverable with no problems. Most spinnakers have a luff length controlled by the height of the mast so if the boat was upright, the spinnaker would not reach the water unless the halyard was eased. On its beam ends it could go under the side of the boat which could roll over it but It still should come free, unless the halyard was eased. Of course as Warren has now said in his latest reply, the spinnaker was not set and the halyard was not up. This could have been called just a broach (not a spinnaker broach) and may have been caused primarily by just the main. It also sounds like the spinnaker was being set without the benefit of the Genoa's wind shadow, though Warren didn't say. Normally when racing you always set your new sail before you douse your old one, so with the spinnaker, you would have the pole forward, would set the chute behind the genoa, trim the pole aft to fill the chute, and then douse the genoa. It appears that if the genoa was prematurely doused, then that was the problem. Have fun Joe S
Rick, I'l have a try, but I may get corrected here
My impression of each is pretty much in line with the way you described it. A knockdown might more often than not, happen while going to weather where there is a very strong puff or gust, and it comes from further aft, so that you cannot respond quick enough, and you are simply overpowered, knocking you almost flat. On a keel boat you may not put put your mast in the water and you may not round up. a knockdown can happen with a spinnaker however, and I believe that is what happened in your first link. They were running with the wind aft with the chute up when they got a powerful wind shift, which in their case went forward, so the main spilled the puff, the chute went wide as on a reach and filled. So with the center of effort forward the boat stayed in balance and just went over. A broach is normally with a spinnaker broad reaching or running, where you get overpowered, increase your angle of heel. get uncontrollable weather helm, and round up while getting knocked flat, with the spinnaker in the water. The mast does not actually have to go in the water. Your second link is pretty close to what I would consider a spinnaker broach. He was beam or close reaching and was rounded up and would have been knocked flat except his crew let the sheet and the guy loose and he recovered without getting knocked flat. He almost got in trouble though by letting the guy loose with the sheet. I have seen a spinnaker in a situation similar to that with figure 8 knots in the end of the guy and sheet, where both hung up and the spinnaker refilled and kept pulling the boat over. If you just loose the sheet, the spinnaker should flag. He recovered though so it wasn't quite a broach (in my opinion). I would call it a round up. Now I'm prepared for the dissenting opinions. Joe S
My impression of each is pretty much in line with the way you described it. A knockdown might more often than not, happen while going to weather where there is a very strong puff or gust, and it comes from further aft, so that you cannot respond quick enough, and you are simply overpowered, knocking you almost flat. On a keel boat you may not put put your mast in the water and you may not round up. a knockdown can happen with a spinnaker however, and I believe that is what happened in your first link. They were running with the wind aft with the chute up when they got a powerful wind shift, which in their case went forward, so the main spilled the puff, the chute went wide as on a reach and filled. So with the center of effort forward the boat stayed in balance and just went over. A broach is normally with a spinnaker broad reaching or running, where you get overpowered, increase your angle of heel. get uncontrollable weather helm, and round up while getting knocked flat, with the spinnaker in the water. The mast does not actually have to go in the water. Your second link is pretty close to what I would consider a spinnaker broach. He was beam or close reaching and was rounded up and would have been knocked flat except his crew let the sheet and the guy loose and he recovered without getting knocked flat. He almost got in trouble though by letting the guy loose with the sheet. I have seen a spinnaker in a situation similar to that with figure 8 knots in the end of the guy and sheet, where both hung up and the spinnaker refilled and kept pulling the boat over. If you just loose the sheet, the spinnaker should flag. He recovered though so it wasn't quite a broach (in my opinion). I would call it a round up. Now I'm prepared for the dissenting opinions. Joe S
One Sheet
Joe; MikeC said "blow the vang","Ease the GUY, so the pole goes forward", and ease the sheet but don't let go. So what do you read that says 'A symetrical spinnaker has two sheets???: P.S. I tried to get Paul (C380) to center punch your boat last Friday, Just kidding. Lately some of you people are being less tolerant than me, and that is "just not right".
Joe; MikeC said "blow the vang","Ease the GUY, so the pole goes forward", and ease the sheet but don't let go. So what do you read that says 'A symetrical spinnaker has two sheets???: P.S. I tried to get Paul (C380) to center punch your boat last Friday, Just kidding. Lately some of you people are being less tolerant than me, and that is "just not right".
Mick, your answer is in reply #5. You were Quoting Reply #2
The original post said sheet (singular) and mike C misparaphrased the post and said sheets (plural) three different times in the reply. I wasn't arguing with him just offering a correction, as I am now, and only my 1st statement was a correction. His first reply in #2 was a reasonable opinion. The rest of my reply addressed the additional information that Warren offered as a supplement to his original post. I'm sorry if anyone took it the wrong way. BTW if you or Paul are going to T bone my boat, give me some warning so I can turn it around. I have a mark on my port beam that has to be touched up anyway. Happy sailing Joe S
The original post said sheet (singular) and mike C misparaphrased the post and said sheets (plural) three different times in the reply. I wasn't arguing with him just offering a correction, as I am now, and only my 1st statement was a correction. His first reply in #2 was a reasonable opinion. The rest of my reply addressed the additional information that Warren offered as a supplement to his original post. I'm sorry if anyone took it the wrong way. BTW if you or Paul are going to T bone my boat, give me some warning so I can turn it around. I have a mark on my port beam that has to be touched up anyway. Happy sailing Joe S
Did you Broach while Launching?
Warren, did the broach happen while launching? Tough break. As a driver, there isn’t much you can do other than call the puff and steer down a bit in anticipation. The key is for the mast man to jump the spin halyard really fast and the pit man to grind like nobody’s business. The spin has to be at full hoist and trimmed back to give you at least a fighting chance to recover. The spin trimmer did all he could do by releasing the sheet. Pit man should continue to grind the sail up no matter what. You can also launch the spin in the lee of your genoa, taking that sail down once the spin is set. Or you can do what we do and that is use rubber bands on the spin, keeping it bunched together until you square back the pole. Joe, wouldn't turning your boat so you can get hit on the port side mean that you are changing course and violating RRS 16.1? ;-)
Warren, did the broach happen while launching? Tough break. As a driver, there isn’t much you can do other than call the puff and steer down a bit in anticipation. The key is for the mast man to jump the spin halyard really fast and the pit man to grind like nobody’s business. The spin has to be at full hoist and trimmed back to give you at least a fighting chance to recover. The spin trimmer did all he could do by releasing the sheet. Pit man should continue to grind the sail up no matter what. You can also launch the spin in the lee of your genoa, taking that sail down once the spin is set. Or you can do what we do and that is use rubber bands on the spin, keeping it bunched together until you square back the pole. Joe, wouldn't turning your boat so you can get hit on the port side mean that you are changing course and violating RRS 16.1? ;-)
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