Just did the Hospice Regatta here in FLL, and once again the boat wont sail high, it just wont point. I have an H33.5, fractional rig, standard main with a 155,draws 4'6 winged keel. We were doing just fine,nailed the start and then the first mark and were headed up wind to the second mark, the boat speed was very good,but I cant get the boat to sail close to the wind. We move the traveller to the high side, all to no avail, the end result was having to tack to make the mark, costing me time and a few places at the finish. Anyone got any ideas ?
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How high
Patrick, How high will the boat point. Without a referance, not much to go on, other than to tell you that there is a limit on all boats. Being a racer, I am assuming you already know this. How high will it point, and how high do you want it to point, or should I say how high do you think it should point.
Patrick, How high will the boat point. Without a referance, not much to go on, other than to tell you that there is a limit on all boats. Being a racer, I am assuming you already know this. How high will it point, and how high do you want it to point, or should I say how high do you think it should point.
Not as high as most everyone else
Most everyone else was heading to the mark, we couldn't get the boat to do that, had to sail lower and then tack. While tacking to the right i am now on port tack and crossing the front of everyone else who was higher that i was. I had no rights and had to fall off. Again, most everyone else was higher than we were.
Most everyone else was heading to the mark, we couldn't get the boat to do that, had to sail lower and then tack. While tacking to the right i am now on port tack and crossing the front of everyone else who was higher that i was. I had no rights and had to fall off. Again, most everyone else was higher than we were.
What little tricks
I guess my question really is, what little tricks can I do to get the boat higher, sail trim, etc ?
I guess my question really is, what little tricks can I do to get the boat higher, sail trim, etc ?
Patrick
Comparing to other boats is kind of like comparing apples to oranges. Every boat has it's upwind limits. Last year I crossed the Gulf on an Allied 39. A big stable boat, but would only point to about 50 degrees apparent, and then the boat speed went to hell in a hurry. My 28'S2 will point quite a bit higher, but at a little below 40, boat speed goes to begins to go to hell. There is a very fine line on every boat I have any experience with.l If you have the sails trimmed as good as you can, I have no little tricks to share with you. Pointing has a lot to do with a lot of different things, not the least of which is keel design. Depends on what the designer wanted. This would be a good topic for Don to address. He is the sail trim guru on here.
Comparing to other boats is kind of like comparing apples to oranges. Every boat has it's upwind limits. Last year I crossed the Gulf on an Allied 39. A big stable boat, but would only point to about 50 degrees apparent, and then the boat speed went to hell in a hurry. My 28'S2 will point quite a bit higher, but at a little below 40, boat speed goes to begins to go to hell. There is a very fine line on every boat I have any experience with.l If you have the sails trimmed as good as you can, I have no little tricks to share with you. Pointing has a lot to do with a lot of different things, not the least of which is keel design. Depends on what the designer wanted. This would be a good topic for Don to address. He is the sail trim guru on here.
If you are racing against J-24's then I think I
know your problem. But if you were racing against me then I would say you have a real serious problem. I measure my boat against my expectations and I can sail off a leeshore and that is good enough for me.
know your problem. But if you were racing against me then I would say you have a real serious problem. I measure my boat against my expectations and I can sail off a leeshore and that is good enough for me.
how hig can you point??
If you can tell us how high you can point (45 degrees??50 degrees??) it would help. I know that a Hunter 336 at my YC can't get any higher than about 50 degrees from the wind. That's his limit. So instead of pointing, he works on boat speed, getting the wind shifts, good starts and not making mistakes. I would offer you the same advice. Do what you can make a difference with...and do it well.
If you can tell us how high you can point (45 degrees??50 degrees??) it would help. I know that a Hunter 336 at my YC can't get any higher than about 50 degrees from the wind. That's his limit. So instead of pointing, he works on boat speed, getting the wind shifts, good starts and not making mistakes. I would offer you the same advice. Do what you can make a difference with...and do it well.
Shoal Keel = Poor pointing ability.
If you have the shoal/wing keel, then you wont be able to point as high as a similar boat with a full keel. You will easily be 5-10 degrees off of other boats. The trade off is between being able to sail upwind and get into a shallow mooring spot. Of course there can be many other factors at play, but that one you can't really overcome. Chris
If you have the shoal/wing keel, then you wont be able to point as high as a similar boat with a full keel. You will easily be 5-10 degrees off of other boats. The trade off is between being able to sail upwind and get into a shallow mooring spot. Of course there can be many other factors at play, but that one you can't really overcome. Chris
My 35.5 sails at..........
....30* apparent in around 10kts. The 33.5 is basically the same boat just a bit shorter. Rig tunning and sail shape are key factors in pointing. Also need a clean bottom and hopfully you don't have a fixed three blade prop. Your mast rake should be set at about 8 to 10 inches and carry about 5 or 6 inches of prebend. This will allow you to get best pointing and speed out of your boat. Cap shroud tension needs to be near 25% breaking strength which will give good headstay tension. Minimize main sail twist. Twist is the big killer of speed and pointing. Genoa lead cars need to be adjusted for best lead angle. Pull the genoa sheet in tight and luff the boat up. All telltales should break together. If not the cars need to be adjusted. Small adjustments make a huge difference. There's plenty more, but this will get you started in the right direction. Good luck
....30* apparent in around 10kts. The 33.5 is basically the same boat just a bit shorter. Rig tunning and sail shape are key factors in pointing. Also need a clean bottom and hopfully you don't have a fixed three blade prop. Your mast rake should be set at about 8 to 10 inches and carry about 5 or 6 inches of prebend. This will allow you to get best pointing and speed out of your boat. Cap shroud tension needs to be near 25% breaking strength which will give good headstay tension. Minimize main sail twist. Twist is the big killer of speed and pointing. Genoa lead cars need to be adjusted for best lead angle. Pull the genoa sheet in tight and luff the boat up. All telltales should break together. If not the cars need to be adjusted. Small adjustments make a huge difference. There's plenty more, but this will get you started in the right direction. Good luck
You've covered the max lift heel angle?
With a wing you have to, have to be 15 to 20 degrees close hauled ... even if it means you add rail meat to the low side. At least that's what we find on the Oday 272. Vic "Seven"
With a wing you have to, have to be 15 to 20 degrees close hauled ... even if it means you add rail meat to the low side. At least that's what we find on the Oday 272. Vic "Seven"
Doesn't Point
Patrick: I wish I had a $buck$ for every time I've heared this question. The normal answer is to move this or that sail trim control but that seldom solves the problem because there are 8 primary sail trim controls for the mainsail and 6 primary controls for the jib. All have to be in harmony for each point of sail and wind condition. In other words, there is a particular setting for each sail trim control on the main and jib for each point of sail and wind condition and you have to set them correctly or you'll never get the boat to sail at 100% efficiency. By moving the traveler up you are affecting the angle of attack. The more you pull it up the more power your generating - ease it down to decrease power. The problem is you are developing more power but you are also affecting heel, steering and the mainsail itself. Additionally, the mainsail is like a giant rudder which wants to make the boat fall off. The more you crank the traveler up the more the boat wants to fall off. So what is the answer to the problem? Get all the controls set properly for the point of sail and wind condition your sailing in. How do you know what these settings are? Simple, I've already outlined them for you with my Sail Trim Chart. Here's my deal - if you buy the chart and faithfully follow the settings I suggest and if you don't move up 2 or 3 positions I'll give you your money back!! Read the testimonials from racers in my book to see what I'm talking about.
Patrick: I wish I had a $buck$ for every time I've heared this question. The normal answer is to move this or that sail trim control but that seldom solves the problem because there are 8 primary sail trim controls for the mainsail and 6 primary controls for the jib. All have to be in harmony for each point of sail and wind condition. In other words, there is a particular setting for each sail trim control on the main and jib for each point of sail and wind condition and you have to set them correctly or you'll never get the boat to sail at 100% efficiency. By moving the traveler up you are affecting the angle of attack. The more you pull it up the more power your generating - ease it down to decrease power. The problem is you are developing more power but you are also affecting heel, steering and the mainsail itself. Additionally, the mainsail is like a giant rudder which wants to make the boat fall off. The more you crank the traveler up the more the boat wants to fall off. So what is the answer to the problem? Get all the controls set properly for the point of sail and wind condition your sailing in. How do you know what these settings are? Simple, I've already outlined them for you with my Sail Trim Chart. Here's my deal - if you buy the chart and faithfully follow the settings I suggest and if you don't move up 2 or 3 positions I'll give you your money back!! Read the testimonials from racers in my book to see what I'm talking about.
How much rake??
How much rake do you have in your mast? That could be your problem. If you can't get enough add a toggle to your head stay and then adjust your back stay..
How much rake do you have in your mast? That could be your problem. If you can't get enough add a toggle to your head stay and then adjust your back stay..
Performance enhancements?
What have you done to increase performance? In no particular order: How does your boat perform relative to other similar winged keel boats? Do you have extra weight and extra gear on the boat you could leave on shore? Do you have a folding or fixed prop? The later causes extra drag and turbulence right in front of the rudder and affects pointing more than you'd guess. At the very least, with a fixed prop, put the transmission in reverse to keep the prop from spinninng and causing even more turbulence. Is the bottom clean and the hull to keel joint been faired and are you using a smooth and/or wet sanded racing paint? What is the condition of the sails, and do you have draft stripes on the Main and Genoa so you can see and better adjust the sail shape? Do you have a backstay adjuster and use it to flaten the entry of the Genoa? Do you have the 155% on a roller furler with Sunbrella on the trailing edge; is the trailing edge 'hooked' inward with too much leach cord tension to avoid flutter? Set the main and Genoa halyards hand tight to set the draft position at 45-50% to avoid a draft forward shape and provide a finer entry for high pointing. Set the outhaul hand tight to avoid too much draft, prevent early backwinding of the lower main and allow a closer sheeted genoa. Loosen and reset the leach cord on the main to prevent a hooked leach. Start with the traveler centered and see if the top batten on the main can be set parallel with the boom.
What have you done to increase performance? In no particular order: How does your boat perform relative to other similar winged keel boats? Do you have extra weight and extra gear on the boat you could leave on shore? Do you have a folding or fixed prop? The later causes extra drag and turbulence right in front of the rudder and affects pointing more than you'd guess. At the very least, with a fixed prop, put the transmission in reverse to keep the prop from spinninng and causing even more turbulence. Is the bottom clean and the hull to keel joint been faired and are you using a smooth and/or wet sanded racing paint? What is the condition of the sails, and do you have draft stripes on the Main and Genoa so you can see and better adjust the sail shape? Do you have a backstay adjuster and use it to flaten the entry of the Genoa? Do you have the 155% on a roller furler with Sunbrella on the trailing edge; is the trailing edge 'hooked' inward with too much leach cord tension to avoid flutter? Set the main and Genoa halyards hand tight to set the draft position at 45-50% to avoid a draft forward shape and provide a finer entry for high pointing. Set the outhaul hand tight to avoid too much draft, prevent early backwinding of the lower main and allow a closer sheeted genoa. Loosen and reset the leach cord on the main to prevent a hooked leach. Start with the traveler centered and see if the top batten on the main can be set parallel with the boom.
IF YOU WNAT TO POINT
Patrick, With a Hunter fractional rig the only way you are going to point is to take up the headstay sag. Recent addition to this thread sez to set the cap shrouds at 25% to help decrease headstay sag - very hard to do. Set the 25% of shroud tensil strength. Most people use 15 to 18%. Even 20% requires a big screwdriver and an extra long wrench. Do not try and take up the headstay sag with the back stay adjuster on a fractional rig. More back stay on a fractional does nothing but bend the mast. Some fractional Hunters have a jumper strut on the mast to take up headstay sag. Re: a recent post on this Hunter List - w/picture. These jumper struts are available and can be seen in action in the 1991 Liberty Cup races as seen in a video that was discussed recently on this List Other Hunter fractional rigs use running back stays. Have not seen a picture of this modification - nor have I seen a discussion on this adjustment No matter how you do it you won't point until you take up the headstay sag - much more than is available from the cap shrouds - regardles of the percentage of tensil strength applied. Next time you are out on the water on a good point - go forward and look at your headstay and look at the sag. The proper and exact mast rake will decrease the amount of drag the rudder produces. Less drag helps to point also. In summary - really get into rig tuning and how each shroud works. The Bryan Toss video on rig tuning has a cut on tuning a HL 37. Toss covers the side stays for cruising but does not address the forestay or the back stay. Good question - good thread - good info RD
Patrick, With a Hunter fractional rig the only way you are going to point is to take up the headstay sag. Recent addition to this thread sez to set the cap shrouds at 25% to help decrease headstay sag - very hard to do. Set the 25% of shroud tensil strength. Most people use 15 to 18%. Even 20% requires a big screwdriver and an extra long wrench. Do not try and take up the headstay sag with the back stay adjuster on a fractional rig. More back stay on a fractional does nothing but bend the mast. Some fractional Hunters have a jumper strut on the mast to take up headstay sag. Re: a recent post on this Hunter List - w/picture. These jumper struts are available and can be seen in action in the 1991 Liberty Cup races as seen in a video that was discussed recently on this List Other Hunter fractional rigs use running back stays. Have not seen a picture of this modification - nor have I seen a discussion on this adjustment No matter how you do it you won't point until you take up the headstay sag - much more than is available from the cap shrouds - regardles of the percentage of tensil strength applied. Next time you are out on the water on a good point - go forward and look at your headstay and look at the sag. The proper and exact mast rake will decrease the amount of drag the rudder produces. Less drag helps to point also. In summary - really get into rig tuning and how each shroud works. The Bryan Toss video on rig tuning has a cut on tuning a HL 37. Toss covers the side stays for cruising but does not address the forestay or the back stay. Good question - good thread - good info RD
Start back at the basics first
Patrick, the most common mistake that I see on the race course is the temptation to overtrim point too high. I have seen time and again, people round the leward mark, and with no regard for the conditions, trim in their sails too tight, crank on the outhaul, cunningham, and backstay, stick the bow up and drive the telltales looking for point. The boat slows down, the keel loses its lift and without knowing it you are going sideways. The old addage of "when in doubt ease it out" holds true here. As long as you are sailing at max speed and keeping the boat flat the keel will do the rest - or at least all it is capable of doing given its design and condition. As your speed builds again you can begin to trim in and try to get more height, but only to the point that you don't begin to lose speed. At this point minor sail adjustments can become very important depending on the level at which you are racing. But you can't worry about that tenth of a knot unless you are sure that the basics have been addressed first. Aside from looking at your sail trim with respect to the conditions, you should make a point to see if footing off for a little more speed helps your pointing. Don't over do it though - we're talking about putting the bow down five-ten degrees and easing sails to the tune of inches. Another good idea is to have a competitor go out and sail against you on their boat. Point with them, keeping the boats close together and in the same breeze and play with your sail trim and steering to see what works and what doesn't. Then make a note of the sail trim settings for those particular conditions. Remember steering is a huge factor too, especially in waves. All the rest of the stuff about mast rake, lengthening to your forestay, faired bottoms, folding props and new sails are definitely factors to consider, but you don't want to start tinkering with these things unless you are confident that you and your crew are racing at a level where the inches gained will make a difference given the costs of some of these improvements. Also, you need to be sure that you are comparing your performance to other similar boats. If you are racing with cruising sails on a boat with a wing keel it would not be realistic to compare your performance to a J/35 with racing sails, adjustable leads and a 7' deep fin keel, even if he is racing in your class. I know that my example here might seem obvious and, of course I am exagerating a little to make the point, so a more subtle comparison might be your 33.5 vs. a S2 9.1. The boats don't have a huge PHRF rating difference at +/-15 seconds/mile, but the difference in performance is huge. The lighter boat will accelerate faster, and overall outperform you in most conditions. Best of luck and don't get discouraged. PS - Alan, what do you mean when you talk about the cap shrouds being at 25% of breaking strength? I have never heard anything like that and you have peaked my curiosity. If you get a minute, can you explain what that means, and how you actually measure it?
Patrick, the most common mistake that I see on the race course is the temptation to overtrim point too high. I have seen time and again, people round the leward mark, and with no regard for the conditions, trim in their sails too tight, crank on the outhaul, cunningham, and backstay, stick the bow up and drive the telltales looking for point. The boat slows down, the keel loses its lift and without knowing it you are going sideways. The old addage of "when in doubt ease it out" holds true here. As long as you are sailing at max speed and keeping the boat flat the keel will do the rest - or at least all it is capable of doing given its design and condition. As your speed builds again you can begin to trim in and try to get more height, but only to the point that you don't begin to lose speed. At this point minor sail adjustments can become very important depending on the level at which you are racing. But you can't worry about that tenth of a knot unless you are sure that the basics have been addressed first. Aside from looking at your sail trim with respect to the conditions, you should make a point to see if footing off for a little more speed helps your pointing. Don't over do it though - we're talking about putting the bow down five-ten degrees and easing sails to the tune of inches. Another good idea is to have a competitor go out and sail against you on their boat. Point with them, keeping the boats close together and in the same breeze and play with your sail trim and steering to see what works and what doesn't. Then make a note of the sail trim settings for those particular conditions. Remember steering is a huge factor too, especially in waves. All the rest of the stuff about mast rake, lengthening to your forestay, faired bottoms, folding props and new sails are definitely factors to consider, but you don't want to start tinkering with these things unless you are confident that you and your crew are racing at a level where the inches gained will make a difference given the costs of some of these improvements. Also, you need to be sure that you are comparing your performance to other similar boats. If you are racing with cruising sails on a boat with a wing keel it would not be realistic to compare your performance to a J/35 with racing sails, adjustable leads and a 7' deep fin keel, even if he is racing in your class. I know that my example here might seem obvious and, of course I am exagerating a little to make the point, so a more subtle comparison might be your 33.5 vs. a S2 9.1. The boats don't have a huge PHRF rating difference at +/-15 seconds/mile, but the difference in performance is huge. The lighter boat will accelerate faster, and overall outperform you in most conditions. Best of luck and don't get discouraged. PS - Alan, what do you mean when you talk about the cap shrouds being at 25% of breaking strength? I have never heard anything like that and you have peaked my curiosity. If you get a minute, can you explain what that means, and how you actually measure it?
Tom D
When I first started racing my boat I tuned the rig per Hunter specs which I came to realize over time are far from optimal. I was never able to sail past the middle of the fleet. To improve performance I began to experiment with different settings. In '99 I finally found the formula and we started collecting silverware. The next several years proved time and again that my 'formula' was correct as the trophies kept rolling in. It's not really very complicated. After setting up my mast rake and putting the mast in column, I start to wind up the shroud tension always checking the luff grove as the adjustments are made. I use a Loos gauge to determine the correct setting. I have spent a great deal of time 'tweeking' the numbers for best performance. As you have mentioned, headstay sag is a huge factor in pointing ability. Cap shroud tension is the only way to remove it. By increasing cap shroud tension the mast begins to bend. The D2 shrouds(intermediates) must be tensioned accordingly to maintain the correct amount of prebend. I did add the jumper strut to my rig which allows me to increase headstay tension as the breeze builds by playing the backstay. I also have excellent sails which are a key ingedient to winning. In the end everthing affects performance in one form or another, sails, rig tune, bottom, prop etc...
When I first started racing my boat I tuned the rig per Hunter specs which I came to realize over time are far from optimal. I was never able to sail past the middle of the fleet. To improve performance I began to experiment with different settings. In '99 I finally found the formula and we started collecting silverware. The next several years proved time and again that my 'formula' was correct as the trophies kept rolling in. It's not really very complicated. After setting up my mast rake and putting the mast in column, I start to wind up the shroud tension always checking the luff grove as the adjustments are made. I use a Loos gauge to determine the correct setting. I have spent a great deal of time 'tweeking' the numbers for best performance. As you have mentioned, headstay sag is a huge factor in pointing ability. Cap shroud tension is the only way to remove it. By increasing cap shroud tension the mast begins to bend. The D2 shrouds(intermediates) must be tensioned accordingly to maintain the correct amount of prebend. I did add the jumper strut to my rig which allows me to increase headstay tension as the breeze builds by playing the backstay. I also have excellent sails which are a key ingedient to winning. In the end everthing affects performance in one form or another, sails, rig tune, bottom, prop etc...
Many thanks ....
I want to thanks you all for your responses, very informative. I've done all the stuff one can do with a boat primarily designed and used for cruising, didnt mention the 3 blade feathering prop I have on. There is a sailing club member who has a Farr 40 and I intend to call him and have hiim come out with me one day and look at the rigging, and to comment on your suggestions. Thanks again.
I want to thanks you all for your responses, very informative. I've done all the stuff one can do with a boat primarily designed and used for cruising, didnt mention the 3 blade feathering prop I have on. There is a sailing club member who has a Farr 40 and I intend to call him and have hiim come out with me one day and look at the rigging, and to comment on your suggestions. Thanks again.
Incorrect information
Don, your comment: "Additionally, the mainsail is like a giant rudder which wants to make the boat fall off. The more you crank the traveler up the more the boat wants to fall off." is incorrect. When you bring the traveller to weather the boat will head up not fall off.
Don, your comment: "Additionally, the mainsail is like a giant rudder which wants to make the boat fall off. The more you crank the traveler up the more the boat wants to fall off." is incorrect. When you bring the traveller to weather the boat will head up not fall off.
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