I see from a lot of posts that Lectrasan is being proposed as a good solution for the discharge problem. The system is not being heavily promoted here in Scandinavia. I therefor need some advice: I have a H356. The ventilation from the holding tank has been positioned very close to the cockpit, and I am convinced that the odor I get from time to time is coming from the ventilation. First, I am planning to moove the through hull point further away from the cockpit area. If this does not work, I will have to look for other solutions. One of those being the Lectrasan. My understanding is that if Lectrasan is installed, there is no further use for a holding tank. The Lectrasan does kill the bacteria. I can accept that, but what about the solid particles in the gray water?? Taking my morning swim in a brown cloud of bacteria free water does not seem very attractive to me. Neither does this kind of cloud look very attractive to my neighbours in a harbour . What am I missing out here?
Does Lectrasan sove the discharge problem?
- Thread starter Kjell Arne13927
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What you're missing is...
There is no brown cloud. The Lectra/San not only kills bacteria, but the hypochlorous acid (a type of chlorine) created by the electrodes also "bleaches" the discharge, which is only a gallon at most...usually only about half a gallon...and very pale--like skim milk cut at least 50% with water...immediately diluted even more as it goes into the water. So unless your thru-hull is very close to the waterline, no one would ever know you'd flushed unless they happened to be diving under your boat when the head is flushed. As for your holding tank odor problem...the solution to it is more oxygen in the tank. This can be accomplished by increasing the ventilation via the vent line--shorter, straighter, larger diameter line--and also by using non-chemical tank products that work with the naturally occuring bacteria to prevent odor instead of using chemicals to kill odor. There's a Norwegian product sold here called Odorlos (http://www.odorlos.com)...the active ingredient is nitrates, which promote oxygen release from the waste, preventing odor when used according to directions. The link below should be useful to you learning more about what really causes odor from holding tanks and how to prevent it.
There is no brown cloud. The Lectra/San not only kills bacteria, but the hypochlorous acid (a type of chlorine) created by the electrodes also "bleaches" the discharge, which is only a gallon at most...usually only about half a gallon...and very pale--like skim milk cut at least 50% with water...immediately diluted even more as it goes into the water. So unless your thru-hull is very close to the waterline, no one would ever know you'd flushed unless they happened to be diving under your boat when the head is flushed. As for your holding tank odor problem...the solution to it is more oxygen in the tank. This can be accomplished by increasing the ventilation via the vent line--shorter, straighter, larger diameter line--and also by using non-chemical tank products that work with the naturally occuring bacteria to prevent odor instead of using chemicals to kill odor. There's a Norwegian product sold here called Odorlos (http://www.odorlos.com)...the active ingredient is nitrates, which promote oxygen release from the waste, preventing odor when used according to directions. The link below should be useful to you learning more about what really causes odor from holding tanks and how to prevent it.
Geese, I read the above reply and thought,
totally correct! Nothing to add, oh well. Then I looked to see who wrote it,,,,,,I got here from the home page and didn't know where the link sent me. Duh.
totally correct! Nothing to add, oh well. Then I looked to see who wrote it,,,,,,I got here from the home page and didn't know where the link sent me. Duh.
There is still a cloud -
it just is not brown. Lets see - feces, urine, toilet paper, hypochlorous acid, mix well (or not), pump it out of the boat. That is where I want to swim! You bet! I remember not so long ago a comment about "witches brew". What say you P323?
it just is not brown. Lets see - feces, urine, toilet paper, hypochlorous acid, mix well (or not), pump it out of the boat. That is where I want to swim! You bet! I remember not so long ago a comment about "witches brew". What say you P323?
Patrick
The cloud is what would form from a cup of milk. Not the same but it's treated and legal. And anyone could swim in the 'cloud' but I would wait for it to disperse. Now compare that to the holding tank system. Last summer, anchored in Prudux Haven, Desolation Sound, a upper 30s Beneteau with six people aboard was also secured in the same anchorage. We knew every time one of the passengers used the head. (often) A brown cloud of water came from the holding tank vent. How do you point that out? They were French and ignored us when we tried. We had a LectraSan. We could swim until they got there. We left. P.S. Patrick, I had to respond. Your 'concerns' are what lead politicians/bureaucrats to declare 'no discharge zones' that have NO value.
The cloud is what would form from a cup of milk. Not the same but it's treated and legal. And anyone could swim in the 'cloud' but I would wait for it to disperse. Now compare that to the holding tank system. Last summer, anchored in Prudux Haven, Desolation Sound, a upper 30s Beneteau with six people aboard was also secured in the same anchorage. We knew every time one of the passengers used the head. (often) A brown cloud of water came from the holding tank vent. How do you point that out? They were French and ignored us when we tried. We had a LectraSan. We could swim until they got there. We left. P.S. Patrick, I had to respond. Your 'concerns' are what lead politicians/bureaucrats to declare 'no discharge zones' that have NO value.
Fred, you misunderstand my concerns
My point is that there is little if any actual science in this issue. Just because you bleach out the color doesn't mean that the impact or hazard is less. The solids are still there and bleaching does make other byproducts. It might actually be worse - but I doubt it - probably just different. P323 could probably enlighten us. I do not know. It is superstition and emotional response - not my comments - that leads to no discharge zones. You could probably have safely swam in the water at Prudeau Haven either way. They close beaches to swimming more and more just because of a little goose poop forcing kids who want to swim to go to chlorinated pools where they have to pay for their exposure to chlorine. Discharge from a few boats is nothing compared to what is done by municipalities whose politicians want to regulate boaters out of simple greed, envy, power, etc. Remember DNR Jennifer whats her name a few years ago actually wanted to make it illegal to live aboard or rather she tried. Same thinking if you ask me or rather lack of it.
My point is that there is little if any actual science in this issue. Just because you bleach out the color doesn't mean that the impact or hazard is less. The solids are still there and bleaching does make other byproducts. It might actually be worse - but I doubt it - probably just different. P323 could probably enlighten us. I do not know. It is superstition and emotional response - not my comments - that leads to no discharge zones. You could probably have safely swam in the water at Prudeau Haven either way. They close beaches to swimming more and more just because of a little goose poop forcing kids who want to swim to go to chlorinated pools where they have to pay for their exposure to chlorine. Discharge from a few boats is nothing compared to what is done by municipalities whose politicians want to regulate boaters out of simple greed, envy, power, etc. Remember DNR Jennifer whats her name a few years ago actually wanted to make it illegal to live aboard or rather she tried. Same thinking if you ask me or rather lack of it.
Type 1 MSD Discussion
Here is the actual requirement for type one MSD which, I think you will see, requires there to be no solids. The Lectrasan is approved: Type I- Flow-through device (maceration and disinfection) equal to or less than 65 feet in length The effluent produced must not have a fecal coliform bacteria count greater than 1000 per 100 milliliters and have no visible floating solids. Smallest, most popular U.S. Coast Guard certified Type I Marine Sanitation Device for environmentally friendly treatment of waste and legal overboard discharge on inspected and uninspected vessels up to 65 feet in length. Benefits: „h Can be used with both manual and electric toilets. „h Generates its own natural disinfectant from salt water. „h Treats each flush as waste is generated. „h Discharges with treatment levels that are safe for environmentally sensitive areas. „h Easy to install. Options: „h Available for 12, 24 and 32V DC „h Optional toilet sensor starts treatment unit when manual toilet is flushed „h Optional control available for use with two toilets „h Optional salt feed systems available when using fresh or brackish water Federal Requirements and Safety Tips for Recreational Boats Marine Sanitation Devices All recreational boats with installed toilet facilities must have an operable marine sanitation device (MSD) on board. Vessels 65 feet and under may use a Type I, II or III MSD. Vessels over 65 feet must install a Type II or III MSD. All installed MSDs must be Coast Guard certified. Coast Guard certified devices are so labeled except for some holding tanks, which are certified by definition under the regulations. When operating a vessel on a body of water where the discharge of treated or untreated sewage is prohibited the operator must secure the device in a manner which prevents any discharge. Some acceptable methods are: padlocking overboard discharge valves in the closed position, using non releasable wire tie to hold overboard discharge valves in the closed position, closing overboard discharge valves and removing the handle, locking the door, with padlock or keylock, to the space enclosing the toilets (for Type I and Type II only).
Here is the actual requirement for type one MSD which, I think you will see, requires there to be no solids. The Lectrasan is approved: Type I- Flow-through device (maceration and disinfection) equal to or less than 65 feet in length The effluent produced must not have a fecal coliform bacteria count greater than 1000 per 100 milliliters and have no visible floating solids. Smallest, most popular U.S. Coast Guard certified Type I Marine Sanitation Device for environmentally friendly treatment of waste and legal overboard discharge on inspected and uninspected vessels up to 65 feet in length. Benefits: „h Can be used with both manual and electric toilets. „h Generates its own natural disinfectant from salt water. „h Treats each flush as waste is generated. „h Discharges with treatment levels that are safe for environmentally sensitive areas. „h Easy to install. Options: „h Available for 12, 24 and 32V DC „h Optional toilet sensor starts treatment unit when manual toilet is flushed „h Optional control available for use with two toilets „h Optional salt feed systems available when using fresh or brackish water Federal Requirements and Safety Tips for Recreational Boats Marine Sanitation Devices All recreational boats with installed toilet facilities must have an operable marine sanitation device (MSD) on board. Vessels 65 feet and under may use a Type I, II or III MSD. Vessels over 65 feet must install a Type II or III MSD. All installed MSDs must be Coast Guard certified. Coast Guard certified devices are so labeled except for some holding tanks, which are certified by definition under the regulations. When operating a vessel on a body of water where the discharge of treated or untreated sewage is prohibited the operator must secure the device in a manner which prevents any discharge. Some acceptable methods are: padlocking overboard discharge valves in the closed position, using non releasable wire tie to hold overboard discharge valves in the closed position, closing overboard discharge valves and removing the handle, locking the door, with padlock or keylock, to the space enclosing the toilets (for Type I and Type II only).
Patrick, your concerns are based on misinformation
Although federal law only requires that the bacteria count from a Type I MSD be reduced to a max of 1000/100 ml...the bacteria count in the discharge from the LectraSan is <10/100 ml. The max allowable bacteria count required by federal law for waters to be considered safe for swimming is 200/100 ml. Nor does the Lectra/San put any chlorine into the water. Hypochlorous acid is produced while the electrodes are actively charging the ions in salt water with electrical current...but it's an unstable solution...it reverts to salt water again when the stimulus (current) is removed. Meanwhile, the chlorine has killed almost all the bacteria. I doubt that anything Rick or I can say will convince you that the Lectra/San is actually a far MORE environmentally friendly solution to onboard waste than a holding tank...but you really should learn a bit more about it than the propaganda spouted by environmental extremists who are even more misinformed about how it works than you seem to be.
Although federal law only requires that the bacteria count from a Type I MSD be reduced to a max of 1000/100 ml...the bacteria count in the discharge from the LectraSan is <10/100 ml. The max allowable bacteria count required by federal law for waters to be considered safe for swimming is 200/100 ml. Nor does the Lectra/San put any chlorine into the water. Hypochlorous acid is produced while the electrodes are actively charging the ions in salt water with electrical current...but it's an unstable solution...it reverts to salt water again when the stimulus (current) is removed. Meanwhile, the chlorine has killed almost all the bacteria. I doubt that anything Rick or I can say will convince you that the Lectra/San is actually a far MORE environmentally friendly solution to onboard waste than a holding tank...but you really should learn a bit more about it than the propaganda spouted by environmental extremists who are even more misinformed about how it works than you seem to be.
Got one and wouldn't have it any other way!
I have the SeaEra electric toilet and LectraSan installed Spring of 2003. No fuss no bother. NO STINK. We moved our boat out of the Annapolis area in 2003 and where we are now, pumpouts are few. Our boat is on the Potomac River. When it rains heavy in the Washington,DC area, the sewage plants cannot handle it and start dumping raw sewage into the river. What's worse 5000 boats with a LectraSan or One city. People fish out the Potomac and eat them. Yuck.. Jim S/V Java
I have the SeaEra electric toilet and LectraSan installed Spring of 2003. No fuss no bother. NO STINK. We moved our boat out of the Annapolis area in 2003 and where we are now, pumpouts are few. Our boat is on the Potomac River. When it rains heavy in the Washington,DC area, the sewage plants cannot handle it and start dumping raw sewage into the river. What's worse 5000 boats with a LectraSan or One city. People fish out the Potomac and eat them. Yuck.. Jim S/V Java
Peggy, I have looked into the idea
of becoming more properly informed and now I realize that I will never be as smart as you but please read what I said. "My point is that there is little if any actual science in this issue." Non-specific biological tests and CG rules do not make for good science. The operative word in the rules re: solids is "visible solids". More properly - turbidity. None of this addresses the real risks or actual environmental impact of electrolytic waste treatment. In situ electrolytic treatment of wastes before discharge is far different than just using a little chlorox for cleaning your aluminum water tank. Granted the smells and visible discharge is reduced if not eliminated entirely. These factors are likely just environmental cosmetics and do not begin to address the actual biology, BOD, COD, ultimate turbidity, carcinogenic by products, etc. Not that cosmetics are not important. I am sure you know more about that than I ever will.
of becoming more properly informed and now I realize that I will never be as smart as you but please read what I said. "My point is that there is little if any actual science in this issue." Non-specific biological tests and CG rules do not make for good science. The operative word in the rules re: solids is "visible solids". More properly - turbidity. None of this addresses the real risks or actual environmental impact of electrolytic waste treatment. In situ electrolytic treatment of wastes before discharge is far different than just using a little chlorox for cleaning your aluminum water tank. Granted the smells and visible discharge is reduced if not eliminated entirely. These factors are likely just environmental cosmetics and do not begin to address the actual biology, BOD, COD, ultimate turbidity, carcinogenic by products, etc. Not that cosmetics are not important. I am sure you know more about that than I ever will.
Patrick, email me and...
I'll reply with copies of just the kind of biologic test results you seem to be asking for...'cuz there is a LOT of science in this issue. You can email me from any of the the sbo.com directories...I'm listed in all of 'em.
I'll reply with copies of just the kind of biologic test results you seem to be asking for...'cuz there is a LOT of science in this issue. You can email me from any of the the sbo.com directories...I'm listed in all of 'em.
Patrick / Peggie
Patrick: To most of us it will be very hard to go as deeply into this subject as you indicate. If you spend time on studying the subject of boat discharge, I am sure a lot of us would be interested in reading your conclusions/comparisons with other options. I do not see stop boating as an option, so what is the preferred option from an environmental point of view of Discharge without treatment. Discharge after chemical treatment. Discharge after electrical treatment. May be you have already has done this, Peggie?
Patrick: To most of us it will be very hard to go as deeply into this subject as you indicate. If you spend time on studying the subject of boat discharge, I am sure a lot of us would be interested in reading your conclusions/comparisons with other options. I do not see stop boating as an option, so what is the preferred option from an environmental point of view of Discharge without treatment. Discharge after chemical treatment. Discharge after electrical treatment. May be you have already has done this, Peggie?
Here we go again
The enviro neocons have started to sap the last vestige of freedom. Why don't the people who come up with no discharge zones: stop using their heads at home (gee, maybe they DO) and stop driving, and stop allowing sewage treatment plants to dump when it rains? ...instead of going after boaters? Ever see how many boats never go out? Wonder whether their statistics include all boats. One whale poop... It's getting (was, still is, remains...)ridiculous. Why argue about the differences and the details, if it puts less out and its cleaner, it's gotta be better. Happy Holidays, Stu
The enviro neocons have started to sap the last vestige of freedom. Why don't the people who come up with no discharge zones: stop using their heads at home (gee, maybe they DO) and stop driving, and stop allowing sewage treatment plants to dump when it rains? ...instead of going after boaters? Ever see how many boats never go out? Wonder whether their statistics include all boats. One whale poop... It's getting (was, still is, remains...)ridiculous. Why argue about the differences and the details, if it puts less out and its cleaner, it's gotta be better. Happy Holidays, Stu
Kjell, Stu -
Nothing done by boaters is ever going to come anywhere even close to the impact of sewage from land. If you wish to be a purist, just pump it out at the dock. If you are in open water, I see nothing wrong with discharging it out as is. Not suggesting anything illegal - just my opinion. Treating it will eliminate odors and visible evidence. If that is a problem, treat it. My main point is that just because you can't see it doesn't mean there is no impact and just because there is a law does not make it a done deal. "Clean" is not a very precise term to use in this context. A little fecal coliform in the water is normal and "natural" and will not kill you. Don't panic -it is present in most drinking water. The biological tests usually done are very general and do not really address the specific danger to humans or the environmental impact in general. There are so many other things to do to be safe on the water that it is really not that important. Just give it some thought and be considerate about how your choices might impact others and you won't go far wrong.
Nothing done by boaters is ever going to come anywhere even close to the impact of sewage from land. If you wish to be a purist, just pump it out at the dock. If you are in open water, I see nothing wrong with discharging it out as is. Not suggesting anything illegal - just my opinion. Treating it will eliminate odors and visible evidence. If that is a problem, treat it. My main point is that just because you can't see it doesn't mean there is no impact and just because there is a law does not make it a done deal. "Clean" is not a very precise term to use in this context. A little fecal coliform in the water is normal and "natural" and will not kill you. Don't panic -it is present in most drinking water. The biological tests usually done are very general and do not really address the specific danger to humans or the environmental impact in general. There are so many other things to do to be safe on the water that it is really not that important. Just give it some thought and be considerate about how your choices might impact others and you won't go far wrong.
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