Quick Quiz now in progress for the week of 1-10-00: Do you frequently sail with your rails in the water? Have you done it occasionally, or would you never consider it? Has it happened because you messed up your sail trim and got overpowered... or because you nailed it just right? Is it an inefficient way to sail, or just plain fun? Vote now onthe HOW home page, then share your opinions and watch for final Quick Quiz results!
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No Longer efficient
Tough question... remember the new Hunter's have long water lines, like to be sailed flat and are faster that way. Anyone who sails with their toe rails wet is sloooow!!!! But the older style boats we all grew up sailing with big overhangs and short lwl's needed to be heeled over to accelerate and stay fast. To see these older boats with rails wet is beautiful. They are faster heeled, but it's still not bad because they had freeboard that was so much lower you didn't feel the heel as badly, you just got wet... Fond memories, I'm glad their gone
Sail dry Bob Knott
Tough question... remember the new Hunter's have long water lines, like to be sailed flat and are faster that way. Anyone who sails with their toe rails wet is sloooow!!!! But the older style boats we all grew up sailing with big overhangs and short lwl's needed to be heeled over to accelerate and stay fast. To see these older boats with rails wet is beautiful. They are faster heeled, but it's still not bad because they had freeboard that was so much lower you didn't feel the heel as badly, you just got wet... Fond memories, I'm glad their gone
Sail dry Bob KnottMust not so I can remain married
My wife is my first mate, a play on words, and not a lover of sailing. She does it for me. If I put the rail in the water she would make her first stop, after getting off the boat, to her divorce lawyer. Soooo, it is not efficient and would be more costly, im more ways than one, to attempted it.
My wife is my first mate, a play on words, and not a lover of sailing. She does it for me. If I put the rail in the water she would make her first stop, after getting off the boat, to her divorce lawyer. Soooo, it is not efficient and would be more costly, im more ways than one, to attempted it.
it can be fun
it may not be efficient, but at time it can really be fun .. and graceful with the older older boats
it may not be efficient, but at time it can really be fun .. and graceful with the older older boats
Nnnooo...
Newer wide bodies and flat sections hull are not intended to sail efificiently at high heeling angle . Due to high freeboard of Hunters in general , it is not an eassy thing to do anyway... The rudder has to work heavilly on such conditions , and -unless the deep keep option- and deep rudder ,the boat might turn to wind on its own before the rails get to water level , regardless helmsperson strugle to keep a civilized stright course... I agree ,on conservative cruising designed sailboats (some still being built , and to good purpose), it was often done and it was fun. I have fun on my Hunter sailing FAST but efficient.
Newer wide bodies and flat sections hull are not intended to sail efificiently at high heeling angle . Due to high freeboard of Hunters in general , it is not an eassy thing to do anyway... The rudder has to work heavilly on such conditions , and -unless the deep keep option- and deep rudder ,the boat might turn to wind on its own before the rails get to water level , regardless helmsperson strugle to keep a civilized stright course... I agree ,on conservative cruising designed sailboats (some still being built , and to good purpose), it was often done and it was fun. I have fun on my Hunter sailing FAST but efficient.
Loves it
My Hunter 33 loves 20 to 30 degrees, feels like it is tight in the groove. Gust will put the toe in the water but it's no problem
My Hunter 33 loves 20 to 30 degrees, feels like it is tight in the groove. Gust will put the toe in the water but it's no problem
Not in a H 34 !
Years ago when we raced a Mirage 236 having the rail under was common, fun and usually was followed by my wife demanding we dump the main traveller. No way will I ever sail with the rail under on our Hunter 34. It is nearly impossible to keep the boat balanced and in control with that kind of heel angle. I think of the way our 34 with one reef on a breezy day to windward will neatly slice a big wave with her bow and all we get is a few drops of spray in the cockpit! Now that's more exciting than a rail in the water!
Years ago when we raced a Mirage 236 having the rail under was common, fun and usually was followed by my wife demanding we dump the main traveller. No way will I ever sail with the rail under on our Hunter 34. It is nearly impossible to keep the boat balanced and in control with that kind of heel angle. I think of the way our 34 with one reef on a breezy day to windward will neatly slice a big wave with her bow and all we get is a few drops of spray in the cockpit! Now that's more exciting than a rail in the water!
Toerail in water ='s Excessive leeway
I have a Legend 37.5. Hard on the wind with full main and 130% Genoa, 12 to 15 knots of wind can put the lee rail under. It's fun, it's exciting, it feels fast, but it's slow. Check the numbers and you will probably find that you are losing VMG to windward because of excessive leeway once you bury the lee rail. Lee rail under is fun, but FAST is more fun.
I have a Legend 37.5. Hard on the wind with full main and 130% Genoa, 12 to 15 knots of wind can put the lee rail under. It's fun, it's exciting, it feels fast, but it's slow. Check the numbers and you will probably find that you are losing VMG to windward because of excessive leeway once you bury the lee rail. Lee rail under is fun, but FAST is more fun.
Toerail (and boat) under water can be FAST
After posting my previous message, I remembered an awesome photo of both toe rails (and most of the boat) under water at extreme speed. Check out www.fastisfun.com/reward.html In some cases, toerails in the water does mean FAST.
After posting my previous message, I remembered an awesome photo of both toe rails (and most of the boat) under water at extreme speed. Check out www.fastisfun.com/reward.html In some cases, toerails in the water does mean FAST.
Not on an H31 either
Love my 31' but the only way to get a toerail in the water is to get hit by a breaking wave at least 6' tall or to wash the boat. Definitely not designed to sail there and will head up before getting there. No matter, 15-25 degrees over and fast is fun. If I need the toerail in the water and waves in the cockpit, I take out the Catalina 25 with the 150% and 20K of wind. Then again, the tiller will wear you out. Rail in the water is fun for a few minutes and a few pictures, but then I'll go back to faster and more level. (It's easier to grab a beverage from the cabin when you can actually use the companion ladder.) Good Sailing!
Love my 31' but the only way to get a toerail in the water is to get hit by a breaking wave at least 6' tall or to wash the boat. Definitely not designed to sail there and will head up before getting there. No matter, 15-25 degrees over and fast is fun. If I need the toerail in the water and waves in the cockpit, I take out the Catalina 25 with the 150% and 20K of wind. Then again, the tiller will wear you out. Rail in the water is fun for a few minutes and a few pictures, but then I'll go back to faster and more level. (It's easier to grab a beverage from the cabin when you can actually use the companion ladder.) Good Sailing!
Only When I Screwed Up!!
When my rail is in the water, I have always been way overpowered and it only happened because my sail trim was not right for the conditions. My Legend 37 sails much faster when heeled not more than 15-18 degrees. I must admit, though, that when it has happened, its been fun. Rick Ward Eagle II
When my rail is in the water, I have always been way overpowered and it only happened because my sail trim was not right for the conditions. My Legend 37 sails much faster when heeled not more than 15-18 degrees. I must admit, though, that when it has happened, its been fun. Rick Ward Eagle II
Not always fun, but...
...once in a while. It occasionally happens and scares the dickens out of my wife. Especially when she's on the wheel. An occasional hit is OK because it lets you know what you can take. But I'd rather keep it about 15 degs or less for efficiency and comfort.
...once in a while. It occasionally happens and scares the dickens out of my wife. Especially when she's on the wheel. An occasional hit is OK because it lets you know what you can take. But I'd rather keep it about 15 degs or less for efficiency and comfort.
rails
Although I try not to let it happen, if my wife is at the helm, she's says its no fun until we're at least at 30 degrees of heel. I guess I should consider my self lucky, since most people reflect Mickey Goodmans wife approach. And yes the boat sails substantially slower with the rail in the water than at 15 degrees of heel, but as long as we're not in 40 knots winds, I'll continue to allow my wife to thrill herself and any other passengers on board. Bryce Grefe S/V Spellbinder H410
Although I try not to let it happen, if my wife is at the helm, she's says its no fun until we're at least at 30 degrees of heel. I guess I should consider my self lucky, since most people reflect Mickey Goodmans wife approach. And yes the boat sails substantially slower with the rail in the water than at 15 degrees of heel, but as long as we're not in 40 knots winds, I'll continue to allow my wife to thrill herself and any other passengers on board. Bryce Grefe S/V Spellbinder H410
Toenail under Water
I thought you said TOENAIL. If so YES frequently. Seriously though modern Hunters are so beamy have such high value of initial stability and have such high topsides that the foils and sails are very inefficient when heeled to that extent and, even when racing it pays to keep the heel down to not more than 20/25 degrees. In the old days before IOR typeformed the world's boats 30 - 35 degrees of heel was commonplace. Today the rudder angle needed to keep tracking really puts the brakes on Besides the gin spills on the cockpit sole! Regards to all Don.
I thought you said TOENAIL. If so YES frequently. Seriously though modern Hunters are so beamy have such high value of initial stability and have such high topsides that the foils and sails are very inefficient when heeled to that extent and, even when racing it pays to keep the heel down to not more than 20/25 degrees. In the old days before IOR typeformed the world's boats 30 - 35 degrees of heel was commonplace. Today the rudder angle needed to keep tracking really puts the brakes on Besides the gin spills on the cockpit sole! Regards to all Don.
Not Often
My sailing buddy and I have burried the rail on my H30 on a couple of outings. It took a lot of work to get it wet and keep it there in about 20k and around 35 degrees of heel. It does quicken the pulse, but aside from being slower it's also uncomfortable on aging knees; there really isn't much room left to stand when you're over that far. In this corner of the ocean it's also difficult staying free of the lobster buoys with so little control and visibility to leeward; on the plus side, there's not much boat left in the water to snag them with, except stanchions! Nice to do it once a year (by plan vs surprise), but not my preferred angle of travel.
My sailing buddy and I have burried the rail on my H30 on a couple of outings. It took a lot of work to get it wet and keep it there in about 20k and around 35 degrees of heel. It does quicken the pulse, but aside from being slower it's also uncomfortable on aging knees; there really isn't much room left to stand when you're over that far. In this corner of the ocean it's also difficult staying free of the lobster buoys with so little control and visibility to leeward; on the plus side, there's not much boat left in the water to snag them with, except stanchions! Nice to do it once a year (by plan vs surprise), but not my preferred angle of travel.
Rails Under ... I don't think so!!
A Hunter 37 has considerable freeboard, and rails under certainly means that something is amiss. But we all know that the wind is a variable element and that even when well trimmed, the occassional prolonged gust will heel her over a bit, even to the point of closing the rail/water gap. I've found that my boat sails best (and fastest) at <20 degrees of heel. An exhilerating, extreme heeling sail can sometimes be good for a laugh or two, but I think we all have to be honest and admit that putting the rail in the water does NOT equate to going the fastest or using the most efficient sail trim. But, all that said, the REAL bottom line ... it matters not what the "barf-ometer" reads. When the lil' Missus gives me the evil eye, I know darned well that it's time to ease the Main!! ;-)
A Hunter 37 has considerable freeboard, and rails under certainly means that something is amiss. But we all know that the wind is a variable element and that even when well trimmed, the occassional prolonged gust will heel her over a bit, even to the point of closing the rail/water gap. I've found that my boat sails best (and fastest) at <20 degrees of heel. An exhilerating, extreme heeling sail can sometimes be good for a laugh or two, but I think we all have to be honest and admit that putting the rail in the water does NOT equate to going the fastest or using the most efficient sail trim. But, all that said, the REAL bottom line ... it matters not what the "barf-ometer" reads. When the lil' Missus gives me the evil eye, I know darned well that it's time to ease the Main!! ;-)
Tea Time
When my brother got married in Scotland a friend of the brides family took us sailing on the Firth of Clyde. The winds were full Gale force and we had the rail down. After a bit of this the First Mate pops her head up from down below and says. "Could you shorten sail a wee bit I'm trying to make tea" It can be fun with the rail down unless you are trying to make tea.
When my brother got married in Scotland a friend of the brides family took us sailing on the Firth of Clyde. The winds were full Gale force and we had the rail down. After a bit of this the First Mate pops her head up from down below and says. "Could you shorten sail a wee bit I'm trying to make tea" It can be fun with the rail down unless you are trying to make tea.
My Wife says YES.
I have been a bit aprehensive about the old toe rail in the water. I crewed on a few SHOCKS and when we put the rail in the water frequently. Then I got married and for the wife, it's almost a requirement. She thinks it's a blast and likes to show off her boat handling abilities. The same goes for docking. Gave her a one week sailing class in Nanimo, BC and she has not been the same since. Wild and Confident!
I have been a bit aprehensive about the old toe rail in the water. I crewed on a few SHOCKS and when we put the rail in the water frequently. Then I got married and for the wife, it's almost a requirement. She thinks it's a blast and likes to show off her boat handling abilities. The same goes for docking. Gave her a one week sailing class in Nanimo, BC and she has not been the same since. Wild and Confident!
We use the blender rule
The blender rule is; if the blender starts to slide across the deck we have to much heel. If Michele is not around, "Toodles" likes between 15 and 20 degrees (Michele likes between 3 and 5). The boat seems to perform better and feels more in balance at 15 degrees. We have a Hunter 335. We generally reef before the winds hit 15 knots (If Michele is on board we reef in all conditions). This seems to keep the rail out of the water and the boat moving faster. Keep the rail out of the water and the passengers happy. There's fringe that goes with a happy lady (the vessel and the person)
The blender rule is; if the blender starts to slide across the deck we have to much heel. If Michele is not around, "Toodles" likes between 15 and 20 degrees (Michele likes between 3 and 5). The boat seems to perform better and feels more in balance at 15 degrees. We have a Hunter 335. We generally reef before the winds hit 15 knots (If Michele is on board we reef in all conditions). This seems to keep the rail out of the water and the boat moving faster. Keep the rail out of the water and the passengers happy. There's fringe that goes with a happy lady (the vessel and the person)
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