Do not buy a Doyle sail from this Rep.

[delmore@wavecable.com]

I was directed on the Doyle web site to the Doyle loft in the Washington state.
The Rep. here is Clear Ahead Sailmakers owner Gary Stuntz. I talked with Gary and settled on a price and ordered a new Doyle 135% foam luff furling head sail for my Catalina 36 MKII tall rig. Gary said he would need a check for the full amount $3049.20, and I made the mistake of mailing him the check with out a new sail in my possesion. That was July 1st.
Well quess what, no sail and alot of promises that it was "due in next week". We finally called a Doyle company in oregon and found out that the sail order had never even been submitted to the main loft in San Fransisco. They infact are waiting for payment from him for two other sails they built for him. We told Gary we found this out and that we wanted our money back, two weeks and still waiting. Now we can't seem to get him to reply to emails and phone calls or text messeges. Be cautious dealing with Doyle Sails in Washington State.
Gary Stuntz does not deliver.
The loft in Oregon has offered us a better price and delivery in three weeks, but now I am nervous.

 

[BobM]

Too late to cancel the check I guess. Sounds like time to involve the Police. This is fraudulent.

 

[Ross]

If these transactions were by telephone or computer it becomes a wire fraud case and you can get the federal law enforcement people involved. I would send him a certified letter telling him that I was going to go the state and federal law enforcement and press any and all charges that the states attorney find applicable.

 

[delmore@wavecable.com]

We contacted the local pierce county shieriffs office and they were going to contact him. But they said we will need to take him to court to get our money back. Yes he cashed the check. I know better now. next time I'll make the deposit and payment with Visa. I may look into the fraud charge also, as we did this all on the phone and thru the mail.

 

[Maine Sail]

Delmore that sucks..

Sorry to hear of your problem.

If you need a great sail and a great price Phil here at SBO (SBO Dayle Sails (LINK) can set you up.

Dirk at National Sail Supply in Florida is also excellent and the best bang for the buck I've ever found. I've purchased 9 sails from Dirk and they are high quality and have great shape.

A 135% with foam luff, for a C-36, from Dirk, will run you $1809.00 saving you $1240.00 over the Doyle..

National Sail Supply - Catalina 36 TR Sails (LINK)

 

[delmore@wavecable.com]

Thanks, I'll check them out. If I get my money back I'll be in the market.

 

[chuckwayne]

Re: Delmore that sucks..

You should definitely pursue the federal fraud charges-but I'd also send a complete description of what's happened to Robbie Doyle at the Marblehead Headquarters and ask for their assistance. If nothing more, they can remove him from the website and stop his activities.

 

[Tom Spohn]

Untill the middle of this summer Gary worked for Lidgard Sails who fired him for the same problem discribed above. He then hired on with Doyle who decided to take a chance on him. He is a well regarded sailor and actively works the Whidbey Island Race Week every year.

This summer he pledged $150 to a charity event our yacht club sponsored in Des Moines, Wa. He never paid. Our Vice Commodore followed up with the guy that hired him at Doyle and learned that Doyle has since fired him. We are out $150 which is not too hard to swallow. For $3000+ some additional action is required:

1. Suggest you contact Al Declercq on 586-790-7500 or Cell 810-444-6161 or al@doyledetroit.com. I think it was Al who hired and fired him and is familiar with the problem. He can help with others in the Doyle organization if required.

2. Contact Wa. State Atty. General Rob Mc Kenna's office in Olympia. Number is in the front of the phone book and get your story on record. They can advise further action.

3. If Gary was legally an "Agent" of the company (Doyle) the law in Washington and most other states require the company to make good on any bad deals he made. The company then has legal recourse to take Gary to court for failing to live up to the agency agreeement. So don't write this off. Even if Gary dissappears Doyle may be responsible.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, but I worked as an agent for a major aerospace company located in Seattle and had to know something about the Laws of Agency.

 

[Seattle Scott]

Got some info on Stuntz

I am a lawyer. Forget about the fraud charges and the cops, no help there. Walk way, or sue Stuntz in small claims court or get an lawyer and sue in Pierce County District Court, you can add your fees to what he owes - whether you will get a dime is unknown. A "Gary Stuntz" has been sued in April and July this year, one is a "commercial case" and one is a "collection case" http://dw.courts.wa.gov/index.cfm?fa=home.caselist&init, ( link to the court filings didn't work) so this means the guy is usually broke and will file bankrupcty so get rid of these debts. If Doyle lets these reps collect money, my guess is that they are independant contractors and not "agents" of Doyle, but wouldn't hurt to see if Doyle will make good on this or get you a replacment sail at cost.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

I think it is pretty standard to pay 50% up front upon a sail order and the balance upon completion. I don't think it is a good idea to pay for anything 100% up front if you are ordering something to build, regardless of the product. Hindsight, I know, but I would be leary of someone wanting money up front unless you knew you were getting a very, very good deal and know that he/she would deliver. That makes me cringe even.

 

[Stephen K]

Always use a Credit Card

I recently had a non conforming sail from another sailmaker and he agreed to accept the return and ship me a new sail. I was charged for the new sail well before it arrived and promptly returned the original sail for credit via U.P.S.. It has been over 2 months since I returned the sail and still no credit. I have talked to the owner a couple times and get the same B.S. about "the credit is coming" ....all I can say is that I am glad I paid with American Express, because they are handling the problem.

 

[Joe]

I don't understand. If the check was made out to a designated representative of Doyle sails, then the buyer has no way of knowing he is not dealing in some way with Doyle sails. It would seem logical that in order for Doyle to maintain their integrity and reputation they should share responsibility in this matter. If Doyle lawyers have written in protection clauses to avoid responsibility for their agents......... then they are morally at fault in this matter also.

So... if Doyle takes a hands off attitude and says "hey, it's not our fault.. he was an independent contractor" then they are damaging their crediblity and should be exposed.

So.. you can go to small claims court as long as you find the right person to sue... but the larger issue is: Will anyone trust Doyle Sails enough to order a sail online from their designated representatives again? If I were Doyle sails I would make good on the sail delivery then deal with Gary Stuntz themselves rather than lay all this bull crap on an innocent customer.

 

[BobM]

Lot's of great input from all, as usual

It is great to see so much good info and advice, as usual.

I would contact Robbie Doyle and other recommended representatives of Doyle. If his site directed you to this guy, then he really should make good on the sail. If he doesn't, I for one will shop elsewhere for sails. It is a shame that Doyle gave this guy a chance to screw more people, no matter how nice a guy he is or how many miles he's sailed. I had hoped that a call from the Sheriff would get you a rapid refund, but it sounds like this guy is busted and you will likely just end up in a long line at his bankruptcy hearing. Was the check to him or to Doyle?