Difficult to set eye splice, Samson Warp Speed 2

[CloudDiver]

I have my main and foresail halyard in red and green Samson Warp Speed 2 (Euro color Dyneema SK78 Core, polyester cover). For my boat I don't really "need" a high tech line like that, but I found it on sale around the 4th of July and the biggest reason is that due to its extremely tight weave on the cover it's actually just a bit smaller than other 8mm or 5/16" lines; I know because I have another length of New England Endura Braid in 5/16" to compare to. The 8mm Warp Speed II passes through my Harken 306 exit block without rubbing, where other 8mm and 5/16 lines I tested do slightly rub.
Anyway, I did an eye splice without the cover for my foresail halyard. I chose this splice because the eye splice will pin to my furling upper swivel and had I spliced a regular eye with the cover it might not fit. I whipped the exposed dynemma eye to give it some protection.
On the green line for the main halyard I did a standard eye splice with the cover. On this one I am having a hell of a time getting the core to set. I've been pounding the splice with a hammer to work it and using leather gloved hand to pull the line... Its stuck.
The cover on this line being so incredibly tight is a blessing and a curse. I work the cover back and forth several times to loosen it before starting a splice. The tight weave makes pulling the core a real chore, and then there is little room to set the eye.
I used a harness and my body weight to try to set the eye but no luck so far. I'll try again when I get my new winches set up on the boat. At the moment I have no winch set up on a bench or anything.
Any tips on getting really difficult splices to set? I'd really hate to cut off the splice and start over, I think I'd loose 2 feet or more of the line length (the line was purchased a bit long to account for splicing, but not messing up and doing it twice!).

 

[Jackdaw]

Assuming your 'standard eye splice' was actually a core-to-core covered splice that HAS to be used on core-dependent line like Warp Speed....

A standard dual-braid splice will fail.

 

[CloudDiver]

Assuming your 'standard eye splice' was actually a core-to-core covered splice that HAS to be used on core-dependent line like Warp Speed....

A standard dual-braid splice will fail.

I only meant 'standard' in the sense that it utilizes the cover fully around the eye unlike the other splice I did sans the cover. Yes, its a core dependent splice. I don't have all the splices memorized yet, I like the YouTube splicing vids by Premium Ropes. I follow the instruction specifically for dyneema core lines. These videos are very well made and don't have annoying narration.

 

[Joe]

Take a glance at the Samson instructions for core dependent "class II" double braids and compare with what you're doing.... might find the answer there. Good luck.

 

[Brian S]

Next time I need spliced halyards, I'm just going to tie the shackle on with a Halyard Hitch: http://www.animatedknots.com/halyard/index.php If it's good enough for Jackdaw's boats, it's good enough for mine. And I know he sails his harder and faster than mine.

 

[Brian S]

Oh, and another reason for the Halyard Hitch, I can get full hoist without the bury of a splice causing any difficulty up in the masthead sheaves.

 

[thinwater]

Next time I need spliced halyards, I'm just going to tie the shackle on with a Halyard Hitch: http://www.animatedknots.com/halyard/index.php If it's good enough for Jackdaw's boats, it's good enough for mine. And I know he sails his harder and faster than mine.

A halyard knot is not very secure on high mod polyethylene line. Otherwise, I agree 100%.

Honestly, in this application Warpspeed is so over strength and durable this is a lot of worry over nothing. I used 5/16" high mod for halyards on significantly larger boats. Do the bury splice and go sailing. I recycled some used Warpspeed for sheets on my boat years ago and am quite impressed. The point with halyards is always sharp spots; if you have them, it will wear, if you don't it won't. Solve the problem, not the symptom.

 

[Jackdaw]

Oh, and another reason for the Halyard Hitch, I can get full hoist without the bury of a splice causing any difficulty up in the masthead sheaves.

Indeed. While splices definitely have their place, the inherent strength of modern line makes knots (in particular halyard knots) more attractive in more and more places on boats. Always look at the line and the application, and make your choice.

 

[CloudDiver]

Oh, and another reason for the Halyard Hitch, I can get full hoist without the bury of a splice causing any difficulty up in the masthead sheaves.

If I can't get this eye to set I may have to cut it off and do that knot... I was hoping the splice would work because I try to avoid knots when possible. The masthead sheaves I will use can handle a 3/8 line so a fair amount of the splice could ride over the sheave without jamming. I'm not 100% sure, but based on what I have seen so far with the C22 mainsail at full hoist and tension, the headboard is still 8 to 10 inches below the masthead. If the headboard were about to hit the masthead that would indicate you have the boom set to high or not enough tension on the boom down-haul.

 

[CloudDiver]

I haven't taken a picture of the eye splice I am trying to bury, but here is the core-dependent eye splice without using the cover I did on the Jib Halyard. This is a much easier splice to do, but you need a D Splicer to bury the cover.

 

[Joe]

Here's a link to the hi tech double braid, core to core, eyesplice... or type II...

Another way to go........
You could strip about half the cover off... bury splice the cover into the core...

then use the halyard knot to attach the shackle.... or...... do a simple 12 strand luggage tag eyesplice. The luggage tag size eyesplice allows you to bend on or remove any type of shackle.


The dyneema core of warpseed II is UV treated. The smaller diameter core will run freely and be much lighter up top.

 

[bgary]

Whichever kind of core-dependent splice you do, don't forget to lock-stitch it and sieze the throat. Because there is no "crossover" in those types of splices the lock-stitch is an important part of making sure the integrity of the splice is maintained.

 

[CloudDiver]

Whichever kind of core-dependent splice you do, don't forget to lock-stitch it and sieze the throat. Because there is no "crossover" in those types of splices the lock-stitch is an important part of making sure the integrity of the splice is maintained.

What? Yes there is a coss-over... It's basically a locking brummel splice on the core, not a Flemish eye-splice.
Watch how its done and tell if I'm wrong;

 

[bgary]

That's a good splice, and much better (IMO) than the approach recommended by Samson:
http://www.samsonrope.com/Documents/Splice Instructions/DblBrd_C2_Eye_Splice_WEB.pdf
Having said that, I'd offer two things:
-- in my experience, locked-brummel splices get ungainly in larger line-sizes. What works great with the core of a 6mm line may not work so well with a 10mm (or larger) line. In larger sizes that brummel approach can create a big "lump". And,
-- in my opinion, *every* core-dependent splice benefits from being lock-stitched and/or siezed. Maybe that's just me...

 

[CloudDiver]

I talked to another Rigger and asked about the situation, he actually recommended slicing the cover at the throat and then whipping it. Not so sure about that... I might want to give it a go with a winch before I try that.
Finally uploaded a picture... Just so you can see what I'm working with;

 

[All U Get]

I had that happen with some eyes. That's when I followed the Samsons video. I held a small tube in the eye and snapped/jerked it tight until that core pulled inside. The steady pull wouldn't work. I also wet the eye and added a little Dawn on the core to lube it. Worked for me.

All U Get

 

[jssailem]

Got stuck like that once. Nothing worked. Pulled the knot out and started over... Found I had missed a step. Like the unkinking of the first part of the Brummel.

 

[CloudDiver]

Got stuck like that once. Nothing worked. Pulled the knot out and started over... Found I had missed a step. Like the unkinking of the first part of the Brummel.

That was also my first attempt to rectify the situation. I double checked for kinks or cross overs and also carefully made the tapering as fine as possible.
I still haven't tried a proper winch set up on a bench. I was planning to build a nice work bench from reclaimed materials so I could bolt a used winch to the far end of the table. There was a guy who put some used Butcher Block Kitchen counter tops on Craigslist for $75, but he never answered my emails because I'm sure they went right to his junk folder!
Anyway, I already have a 10 foot Bench in my garage/shop but I'd have to relocate my bench-top tool boxes. Either way, at some point I'll create a proper splicing bench with a proper winch. When I'm ready I'll try the dish-soap lube method that All U Get suggested along with hammer-setting and winching... If all that fails I'll try slicing the cover just a hair and whipping it. If I hate it or it seems unsafe, I'll cut off the whole thing and do the cover-less splice again shown it the first picture since I know it works.

 

[jssailem]

Except when I have worked on old rope, never really had an issue with bunching. The old rope tends to be stretched and have dirt between the strands. Needs really good cleaning and hand working to loosen enough for splicing. Not an issue with new lines.