Diesel hard to start
- Thread starter RAD88
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With a 30 year old 2qm15, I find adding PS Diesel Kleen to the fuel, starting at full throttle, and using all the battery power available starts the engine well. Diesel Kleen adds cetane to the fuel. Full throttle is the highest compression setting for the engine. And, full battery power spins the engine as fast as possible. After the engine starts it continues to start well for the day. Old engines need all the help available.
http://www.powerservice.com/dk/
http://www.powerservice.com/dk/
Starting Fluid?
That sounds really bad. I don't think anything but diesel is recommended to start a diesel with. For example, if you used either it has a lower ignition point so if you inject it into your cylinder it ignites while the piston is still going up in it's compression stroke. This can bend your piston rod which results in a loss of compression.
That sounds really bad. I don't think anything but diesel is recommended to start a diesel with. For example, if you used either it has a lower ignition point so if you inject it into your cylinder it ignites while the piston is still going up in it's compression stroke. This can bend your piston rod which results in a loss of compression.
Are you sure that the decompression levers are fully disengaged.
Open the oil fill port on the valve cover and look into the valve gallery as you work the lever assembly back and forth. If the decompression levers (one per cylinder and connected to a single arm) are not fully disengaging then you will have reduced compression.
Ditto on the idle kick lever (Engine STOP button) on the control panel; but, should allow the engine to start with the throttle lever 'well advanced'.
Otherwise, its probably time for a compression check (and engine pressure leak-down test) ... burned valve(s), blown head gasket, etc. etc. etc. Whats the 'color' of the water in the freshwater side of the cooling circuit? .. 'sooty looking cooling water' - look in the 'reservoir') is a good sign of a blown head gasket.
Open the oil fill port on the valve cover and look into the valve gallery as you work the lever assembly back and forth. If the decompression levers (one per cylinder and connected to a single arm) are not fully disengaging then you will have reduced compression.
Ditto on the idle kick lever (Engine STOP button) on the control panel; but, should allow the engine to start with the throttle lever 'well advanced'.
Otherwise, its probably time for a compression check (and engine pressure leak-down test) ... burned valve(s), blown head gasket, etc. etc. etc. Whats the 'color' of the water in the freshwater side of the cooling circuit? .. 'sooty looking cooling water' - look in the 'reservoir') is a good sign of a blown head gasket.
this is 1 of 2 things
not timed correctly or a leak in the fuel system. the later of the two is usually the primary problem, look for wet connections . if you cant find one that doesn't mean you don't have one it could be internal . the bottom line is the injectors are losing their prime. chances are the pressure release is bad and wont seal properly ( its a needle and seat valve)sometimes with an electric solenoid or a manual lever on the fuel injection pump have it pressure tested replacing this should fix the problem.if the engine doesnt start after about 5 revolutions then you have a problem. till then try starting it at half throttle.
the only diesel engines i've worked on that dont start by just bumping the starter are electronic injected ones and thats a computer problem (i dont do those)
not timed correctly or a leak in the fuel system. the later of the two is usually the primary problem, look for wet connections . if you cant find one that doesn't mean you don't have one it could be internal . the bottom line is the injectors are losing their prime. chances are the pressure release is bad and wont seal properly ( its a needle and seat valve)sometimes with an electric solenoid or a manual lever on the fuel injection pump have it pressure tested replacing this should fix the problem.if the engine doesnt start after about 5 revolutions then you have a problem. till then try starting it at half throttle.
the only diesel engines i've worked on that dont start by just bumping the starter are electronic injected ones and thats a computer problem (i dont do those)
Same trouble
My Volvo MD11c behaves just like rad88's engine although I've never had to use starting fluid. It takes a lot of cranking when cold before any firing and then needs continued cranking while it sputters for 30 seconds.
Some of this discussion leaves me puzzled.
Ross, what is a "rack?" Your instructions remind me of the snipe hunting we did as a kid. Are they for real? Is it a need common to all Volvos? What model is yours?
Paul, what do you mean by using all the battery power? How can I use less than all of it? Somewhere I read that the "throttle" on a diesel is actually a governor. That would mean that the fuel supply is wide open whenever the engine is not turning at "throttle" requested rpm. Presumably the battery doesn't turn the engine at idle speed so even at idle throttle there should be maximum fuel supply?
Sand Sailor, if an engine doesn't start in just a few revolutions are we causing any damage by continuing? Judging by the black crud that spits out the exhaust for a minute or so I suspect it's not good for the environment but will it speed the demise of my engine? What does the cold start button do? It locks down when pushed and pops up when the throttle is advanced. It seems to shorten the start process.
Any suggestions for a good source of info on how diesels work?
Geoff
My Volvo MD11c behaves just like rad88's engine although I've never had to use starting fluid. It takes a lot of cranking when cold before any firing and then needs continued cranking while it sputters for 30 seconds.
Some of this discussion leaves me puzzled.
Ross, what is a "rack?" Your instructions remind me of the snipe hunting we did as a kid. Are they for real? Is it a need common to all Volvos? What model is yours?
Paul, what do you mean by using all the battery power? How can I use less than all of it? Somewhere I read that the "throttle" on a diesel is actually a governor. That would mean that the fuel supply is wide open whenever the engine is not turning at "throttle" requested rpm. Presumably the battery doesn't turn the engine at idle speed so even at idle throttle there should be maximum fuel supply?
Sand Sailor, if an engine doesn't start in just a few revolutions are we causing any damage by continuing? Judging by the black crud that spits out the exhaust for a minute or so I suspect it's not good for the environment but will it speed the demise of my engine? What does the cold start button do? It locks down when pushed and pops up when the throttle is advanced. It seems to shorten the start process.
Any suggestions for a good source of info on how diesels work?
Geoff
the rack is in the fuel injection pump .
continuous cranking will burn up the starter and it means you have a problem that a tune up is needed and the cold start button is a manifold heater element that heats the air in the motor and black crud coming from the exhaust is unburned fuel thats a pump setting issue that should be addressed
starting battery or ies?
Yes, you are right the all battery needs clarification. I have a WM group 24 starting battery and two house GC 6v batteries. The starting battery is only about two years old but does not seem to be able to spin the engine well. The engine will start but only after a trying a while. If the house batteries are added by choosing both on the battery switch, the engine starts much faster.
Yes, you are right the all battery needs clarification. I have a WM group 24 starting battery and two house GC 6v batteries. The starting battery is only about two years old but does not seem to be able to spin the engine well. The engine will start but only after a trying a while. If the house batteries are added by choosing both on the battery switch, the engine starts much faster.
Rad,
Please don't use ether (starting fluid) in a diesel it can do bad things. WD-40 works well and is safer for starting a diesel.
Also if you are cranking it that much you should do so with the seacock closed so you don't fill the exhaust system with water then hydrolock your engine. Once it starts quicky open the seacock. I know a number of boaters who have done this after working on fuel systems etc. and sucked water into the cylinders. It does not compress..
Does your engine have glow plugs or a pre-heat system? If it does check that circuit to make sure it is working and pre heat for 20-30 seconds then fire her up.
Rad,
Please don't use ether (starting fluid) in a diesel it can do bad things. WD-40 works well and is safer for starting a diesel.
Also if you are cranking it that much you should do so with the seacock closed so you don't fill the exhaust system with water then hydrolock your engine. Once it starts quicky open the seacock. I know a number of boaters who have done this after working on fuel systems etc. and sucked water into the cylinders. It does not compress..
Does your engine have glow plugs or a pre-heat system? If it does check that circuit to make sure it is working and pre heat for 20-30 seconds then fire her up.
The little one cylinder YSM12 has no glow plug. I am not over cranking to flood my engine. The batteries are new and fully charged. There is no visible fuel leak. The difference is - with the very small amount of starting fluid the engine cranks much faster or higher and kicks right over - every time. Without the fluid the engine cranks lower or slower and never seems to get started. Last year I had a similar problem of hard starting at the end of the season but it turned out to be salt build up at the fuel tank air breather. No air in = less fuel out of the tank. After cleaning this out the engine started right up. I don't think this is the problem this time but I will check again. Dirty fuel filters? or Low cetane would need the bost of starting fluid. Also, the decompression lever is not the problem or the engine would never start. Maybe a timing problem? The fuel injector pump is new as of early last year. Wish I knew a good diesel mechanic.
With a diesel, the first place to start is fuel. Changing the fuel filter may help you some in this problem. You could have a bad filter or it could need changing. I have a diesel truck and have had an issue with it being slow to start only to change the fuel filter and have it fire right up after that.
Check
Maybe the mixing elbo needs cleaning,check the air cleaner for wet fuel and if so than the mixing elbo needs cleaning out.
Some years back my 2001 290 Hunter was getting hard starting in cold weather and smokey when I tried pushing the power for more RPM's and speed,it was starting to loose max hull speed and when adding RPM's it would not help with out lots of black smoke.
Any way come spring I had her put back into water and to motor to my home port but no go,it cranked over OK but no start,wet fuel in the air cleaner,after calling for help and none coming to rescue,I decided to pull the mixing elbo off the back of engine and give a start,started right up first click of the starter,I did take it all a part and picked and picked all that soot out and never ran so good,it ran the best with way better top hull speed and always started right up,
every year after that I would take it apart and clean out and it would run perfect.
Nick
Maybe the mixing elbo needs cleaning,check the air cleaner for wet fuel and if so than the mixing elbo needs cleaning out.
Some years back my 2001 290 Hunter was getting hard starting in cold weather and smokey when I tried pushing the power for more RPM's and speed,it was starting to loose max hull speed and when adding RPM's it would not help with out lots of black smoke.
Any way come spring I had her put back into water and to motor to my home port but no go,it cranked over OK but no start,wet fuel in the air cleaner,after calling for help and none coming to rescue,I decided to pull the mixing elbo off the back of engine and give a start,started right up first click of the starter,I did take it all a part and picked and picked all that soot out and never ran so good,it ran the best with way better top hull speed and always started right up,
every year after that I would take it apart and clean out and it would run perfect.
Nick
Attachments
Rad - MacBoring is the regional distributor for Yanmar parts (located in NJ). They have a Tech support line with a guy who's an expert on Yanmars - particularly the YSM12. I've used him several times and he is terrific. A little diffcult to get a hold of and does not respond to email so you need to call him. I dont have the number but go on the website and call the main number. I think his name is Bob.
I've got the same motor as yours and although everyone on this thread is dead-on for the most part on diesel advice - the support line will give you specifics to check on the YSM12 (which may differ).
Good luck!
- Rob
I've got the same motor as yours and although everyone on this thread is dead-on for the most part on diesel advice - the support line will give you specifics to check on the YSM12 (which may differ).
Good luck!
- Rob
Yes, I must have spoken with Bob at least 3 or 4 times in the last few days. He knows those engines well and will spend the time on the phone to work you thru anything. He was very helpful to me. Dial the main number in NJ, 6 for service and Amanda will direct your call. Bob seems to be in the Chicago area so be aware of the time difference but that makes no difference in getting connected thru NJ. I also spoke with Rick in service in NJ. They are a very friendly and helpful service organization.
Rad;
How old is the engine?
before my rebuild on my 30 year old 2qm15 it was starting to get difficult to start after being really cold. if its the model that doesn't have glow plugs then they can sometimes be slow starting in cold weather,
a small shot of starter fluid won't harm an engine. all its really doing is getting a quicker ignition which will help to warm the cly up to ignite the diesel fuel better.
more info on history of problem would be helpful.
How old is the engine?
before my rebuild on my 30 year old 2qm15 it was starting to get difficult to start after being really cold. if its the model that doesn't have glow plugs then they can sometimes be slow starting in cold weather,
a small shot of starter fluid won't harm an engine. all its really doing is getting a quicker ignition which will help to warm the cly up to ignite the diesel fuel better.
more info on history of problem would be helpful.
Most diesel engine professionals and manufacturers disagree with the use of starting fluid in small diesels.
Here are some quotes:
From Marine Mechanic.com
"Never use ether or starting fluid to start a diesel engine."
From Sound Marine Diesel LLC.
"I would NEVER use ether in a small diesel engine, unless the builder suggested it. (Most builders say the opposite.) The risk of permanent, expensive internal engine damage, due to ether's explosion inside the cylinder, is too great. There is a very real risk of cracking the piston, piston ring, blowing out the head gasket, or even bending the connecting rod when using ether. If your engine will not start by using the factory start procedure, find the problem and fix it."
From Mack Boring Yanmar Tech Support (Bob):
"Starting fluid is not advised in Yamar marine engines. It can, and will, crack piston rings and ring lands. It may not happen the first time but it can and will happen. Piston ring lands are the thin ring of metal on the piston between the individual rings. Usually the piston ring lands crack before rings."
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