Peggie, I had posted a request for help titled "Head Aches" a while back that you very promptly responded to. I was having problems with my PHII-E working with the single button activation cycle of my Lectra San control unit. In short, the whole system smelled as the PHII-E was unable to evacuate the contents of the bowl during the maximum cycle time and the water level fluctuated as a result. If I dried out the bowl, the unit would not initiate enough suction on the flush setting to cycle enough water to work each use, so I constantly had to manually play with the valve as the unit operated to get it to flush and work for the following use. Not very automatic! Well, as a degreed mechanical engineer, I felt I could assess this problem and with Raritan's help, perhaps get it working right. Both units were purchased new. My dicoveries were as follows: The electric motor and drive system do not operate the piston assembly through it's complete linear travel as the manual mode would. The drive system also exerts a significant side load to the piston assembly resulting in premature seal and piston wear causing a failure of the system to suction fresh water in as well as blow-by of the contents in the lower chamber traveling through the intake side and subsequently trough the bowl rim with particulate matter trapped inside. Hence the smell. Converting the unit back to manual operation solved the entire problem but wasted money on the electric model toilet as well as soleniods wiring and labor. I wrote a letter to Raritan over a month ago to which I recieved no reply and all my findings were confirmed by the technical department in Ft. Lauderdale. I did give credit where credit is due about the Lectra San unit. At the time it was working flawlessly but currently is making a very loud vibrating noise on certain occassions. It is under warrantee so I will monitor and return as nesessary. As far as the PHII-E is concerned, I will operate it manually until I replace it with a properly designed and functional model that does what is supposed to due. As a ISO-9000 company, Raritan did not seem to be very concerned with customer input or satisfaction. This is an element in recieving ISO certification. Oh, buy the way, they did send me a new piston seal. Originally it was to be at 50% of cost but they conceeded and sent it for free. I haven't had to replace it since I have been manually using my head. Thanks for listening, I know you have influence with Raritan and I still hope that some "solution" can be reached as they are a "giant" in the marine industry and are supposedly a reputable company. I look forward to your reply and to any others who have experienced the same problem. Thank You, Tom
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Nothing new about this...
I've never been a fan of the PHE II--and recommend against buying 'em--for the very reasons you describe: .the motor does nothing more than replace the pump handle, pumps too fast, and has a much shorter stroke than the manual pump handle. Whether or not the seals wear is just a matter of how precise one is in aligning the motor when you mount it, so it either does or doesn't move the piston absolutely straight up and down. It's largely a matter of luck. There's no design flaw in it. In fact, the PHE II the best of its type on the market. The same issues you've found to be true of the PHE II are gonna exist with any "conversion kit" for a manual toilet that doesn't replace the entire pump with an electric pump...because manual toilets aren't designed to be mechanically pumped--for the simple reason that what's in the bowl has a lot to do with how fast the toilet needs to be pumped...the distance to the treatment device or holding tank + the amount of bulk that's in the system determines how long it has to be pumped...there are just too many variables. But these types of "conversion kits" continue to exist because people don't want to pay the price for a toilet thats' designed to BE an electric toilet, but they want the convenience of "push button." And based on my experience, at least half of these "converted" toilets remain "converted" only long enough for their owners to realize that they got what they paid for...the owners of the other half are just determined to live with their $250 buying mistake, no matter how unsatisfactory it is. But it's not the mfrs' fault that there's a demand for 'em, and not a d'd thing that can be done to make them work any better. Sorry...but that's just the long and short of it. The only advice I can offer now is, next time do a little more homework before you buy.
I've never been a fan of the PHE II--and recommend against buying 'em--for the very reasons you describe: .the motor does nothing more than replace the pump handle, pumps too fast, and has a much shorter stroke than the manual pump handle. Whether or not the seals wear is just a matter of how precise one is in aligning the motor when you mount it, so it either does or doesn't move the piston absolutely straight up and down. It's largely a matter of luck. There's no design flaw in it. In fact, the PHE II the best of its type on the market. The same issues you've found to be true of the PHE II are gonna exist with any "conversion kit" for a manual toilet that doesn't replace the entire pump with an electric pump...because manual toilets aren't designed to be mechanically pumped--for the simple reason that what's in the bowl has a lot to do with how fast the toilet needs to be pumped...the distance to the treatment device or holding tank + the amount of bulk that's in the system determines how long it has to be pumped...there are just too many variables. But these types of "conversion kits" continue to exist because people don't want to pay the price for a toilet thats' designed to BE an electric toilet, but they want the convenience of "push button." And based on my experience, at least half of these "converted" toilets remain "converted" only long enough for their owners to realize that they got what they paid for...the owners of the other half are just determined to live with their $250 buying mistake, no matter how unsatisfactory it is. But it's not the mfrs' fault that there's a demand for 'em, and not a d'd thing that can be done to make them work any better. Sorry...but that's just the long and short of it. The only advice I can offer now is, next time do a little more homework before you buy.
Design Suggestions?
Which ones work? Any suggestions would be appreciated! I'm in the market and was ready to purchase this model. I didn't realize it was a retrofit type of product.
Which ones work? Any suggestions would be appreciated! I'm in the market and was ready to purchase this model. I didn't realize it was a retrofit type of product.
It's a sad day when...
you have to do a lot of research just to make sure you don't buy a bum product from a manufacturer that continues to produce and sell a product that they know has a problem. I guess perhaps the old saying "shame on you", the first time and "shame on me" the second time applies here. I won't make the same mistake twice and through Forums like these perhaps other folks won't make the mistake the first time. Just to set the record straight, I was told by the direct folks at Raritan when I purchased this item that this was a perfectly acceptable electric toilet. As an engineer I research everything I buy. Perhaps the real problem was not research, but believing what I was told. I would have gladly spent more money on a product capable of doing the job. I assure you that the cost of a LectraSan and electric PHII is not cheap! Certainly not in the $139.00 cheapy just throw in a head category. Additionally, the motor was not a refit. It was purchased as a factory installed unit with the motor specifically mounted at the location on the housing that the mold is fabricated for, this is not dumb luck location but poor design from the get go! I don't believe the consumer should have to bear the burden of responsibility when the manufacturer continues to advertise the product as "one of our best toilets" and refuses to outline it's limitations. At any rate, I do appreciate your response, you are a great asset to us all for the help you provide us and sometimes we just don't like what we hear. Perhaps we can learn something again this time at my expense so that someone else can benefit from the experience. And perhaps Raritan, if your out there, maybe you can meet your commitments to the ISO certification that you advertise and make good on a product that doesn't perform to it's intended use and discontinue or improve it so that your customers and you benifit from it. Thanks, Tom
you have to do a lot of research just to make sure you don't buy a bum product from a manufacturer that continues to produce and sell a product that they know has a problem. I guess perhaps the old saying "shame on you", the first time and "shame on me" the second time applies here. I won't make the same mistake twice and through Forums like these perhaps other folks won't make the mistake the first time. Just to set the record straight, I was told by the direct folks at Raritan when I purchased this item that this was a perfectly acceptable electric toilet. As an engineer I research everything I buy. Perhaps the real problem was not research, but believing what I was told. I would have gladly spent more money on a product capable of doing the job. I assure you that the cost of a LectraSan and electric PHII is not cheap! Certainly not in the $139.00 cheapy just throw in a head category. Additionally, the motor was not a refit. It was purchased as a factory installed unit with the motor specifically mounted at the location on the housing that the mold is fabricated for, this is not dumb luck location but poor design from the get go! I don't believe the consumer should have to bear the burden of responsibility when the manufacturer continues to advertise the product as "one of our best toilets" and refuses to outline it's limitations. At any rate, I do appreciate your response, you are a great asset to us all for the help you provide us and sometimes we just don't like what we hear. Perhaps we can learn something again this time at my expense so that someone else can benefit from the experience. And perhaps Raritan, if your out there, maybe you can meet your commitments to the ISO certification that you advertise and make good on a product that doesn't perform to it's intended use and discontinue or improve it so that your customers and you benifit from it. Thanks, Tom
Unfortunately, it IS up to the consumer these days
The manual PH II IS one the best toilets made...but adding an electric motor to it turns an outstanding manual toilet into an "acceptable" electric toilet. It works...provided you don't ask very much of it. No...it's not cheap...but unfortunately you had to find out first hand that there's a good reason why that kind of conversion is about $200 cheaper than any least expensive toilet with an electric pump. As for the installation of the motor..I think you missed my point. It only takes hundredths of an inch off absolutely straight for rubber seals to wear unevenly. Nobody checks the tolerances that closely because manual flushing is considerably more uneven than that. The only difference is, because the motor is moving the piston faster, there's more friction heat till it primes, so the seals will wear out faster. The good news is, without the bloomin' motor, you do have a superior manual toilet. If it were my boat, I'd leave well enough alone and keep using it as it was designed to be used.
The manual PH II IS one the best toilets made...but adding an electric motor to it turns an outstanding manual toilet into an "acceptable" electric toilet. It works...provided you don't ask very much of it. No...it's not cheap...but unfortunately you had to find out first hand that there's a good reason why that kind of conversion is about $200 cheaper than any least expensive toilet with an electric pump. As for the installation of the motor..I think you missed my point. It only takes hundredths of an inch off absolutely straight for rubber seals to wear unevenly. Nobody checks the tolerances that closely because manual flushing is considerably more uneven than that. The only difference is, because the motor is moving the piston faster, there's more friction heat till it primes, so the seals will wear out faster. The good news is, without the bloomin' motor, you do have a superior manual toilet. If it were my boat, I'd leave well enough alone and keep using it as it was designed to be used.
If you want electric convenience...
Buy a toilet that was designed from the "ground up" to be an electric toilet--not a manual toilet with a motor hung on it. The Jabsco "conversion kit" completely replaces the entire pump with an electric pump...there's nothing left of the manual toilet except the bowl. It's not my favorite, is prone to problems, but it's by far the least expensive way to have an electric toilet...when it works. Neither it nor the PHE II macerate. Jabsco also makes full blown electric macerating toilets. For the price, there are others I like a lot better. Raritan's new Sea Era toilet, and the Wilcox Newport are both "budget" electric macerating toilets. I'm not sure about the Newport, but the Sea Era is available with a fresh water solenoid option, which cuts the amount of flush water required from 1-3 gallons per flush for a raw model to 1-3 quarts...makes for a MUCH quieter installation, and reduces the power consumption to next to nothing. Next up the line is the Raritan Crown II...the TOP of the line is the Raritan Atlantes. Both are also available with fresh water flush options. Then there's the SeaLand VacuFlush--the most expensive toilet on the planet. I've had VacuFlush on several boats...but the next one will be a macerating electric model with fresh water flush. When shopping for a toilet, talk to other boat owners about what they have and how happy they are with it. The average boat owner IS pretty clueless about how marine toilet equipment actually works--but that can be good if you're shopping...'cuz it means the ones that people like the most are the ones that keep on working for years despite incredible abuse and total neglect.
Research all the specs...if you have an 18 gallon holding tank and 2 kids, you don't want a toilet that's gonna put 1-3 gallons in the tank with every flush. All electric toilets are gonna use electricity--some a LOT more than others. For instance, the PHE II draws 18 amps per flush...the Jabsco conversion 24 amps per flush...and just about all electric toilets that use raw water draw about 30-35 amps/flush--'cuz it's the intake pump that uses the most power...the macerator and discharge pump only need about 10-11. Note the flush times...a toilet that only DRAWS 5-6 amps sounds better than a toilet that draws 10-11--until you figure out that drawing 5-6 amps for 45 seconds to a minute CONSUMES 2-3 times as much power as one that draws 10-11 amps for 10-15 seconds. Finally, there is no such thing as THE "best" toilet. Boat size can affect what's more appropriate...power reserves whether or not to even go with electric. Does it need to be especially child/landlubber friendly? Flush water quantity vs. holding tank size (or space to put one). Despite opinions to the contrary, only the consumer knows what fits his needs and budget best...and consumers know far better than any mfr will tell you which ones work and which ones they have nothing but problems with--and why (sometimes, what didn't work for somebody else will work just fine for you 'cuz your circumstances are different)... and it IS up to the consumer to do the homework necessary to determine that. Ask the right questions before you buy, not after you've found out you made a bad choice. And btw.. I have no axe to grind with any mfr--I "calls 'em ALL as I sees 'em" ...so don't be shy...I'm here to help.
Buy a toilet that was designed from the "ground up" to be an electric toilet--not a manual toilet with a motor hung on it. The Jabsco "conversion kit" completely replaces the entire pump with an electric pump...there's nothing left of the manual toilet except the bowl. It's not my favorite, is prone to problems, but it's by far the least expensive way to have an electric toilet...when it works. Neither it nor the PHE II macerate. Jabsco also makes full blown electric macerating toilets. For the price, there are others I like a lot better. Raritan's new Sea Era toilet, and the Wilcox Newport are both "budget" electric macerating toilets. I'm not sure about the Newport, but the Sea Era is available with a fresh water solenoid option, which cuts the amount of flush water required from 1-3 gallons per flush for a raw model to 1-3 quarts...makes for a MUCH quieter installation, and reduces the power consumption to next to nothing. Next up the line is the Raritan Crown II...the TOP of the line is the Raritan Atlantes. Both are also available with fresh water flush options. Then there's the SeaLand VacuFlush--the most expensive toilet on the planet. I've had VacuFlush on several boats...but the next one will be a macerating electric model with fresh water flush. When shopping for a toilet, talk to other boat owners about what they have and how happy they are with it. The average boat owner IS pretty clueless about how marine toilet equipment actually works--but that can be good if you're shopping...'cuz it means the ones that people like the most are the ones that keep on working for years despite incredible abuse and total neglect.
Research all the specs...if you have an 18 gallon holding tank and 2 kids, you don't want a toilet that's gonna put 1-3 gallons in the tank with every flush. All electric toilets are gonna use electricity--some a LOT more than others. For instance, the PHE II draws 18 amps per flush...the Jabsco conversion 24 amps per flush...and just about all electric toilets that use raw water draw about 30-35 amps/flush--'cuz it's the intake pump that uses the most power...the macerator and discharge pump only need about 10-11. Note the flush times...a toilet that only DRAWS 5-6 amps sounds better than a toilet that draws 10-11--until you figure out that drawing 5-6 amps for 45 seconds to a minute CONSUMES 2-3 times as much power as one that draws 10-11 amps for 10-15 seconds. Finally, there is no such thing as THE "best" toilet. Boat size can affect what's more appropriate...power reserves whether or not to even go with electric. Does it need to be especially child/landlubber friendly? Flush water quantity vs. holding tank size (or space to put one). Despite opinions to the contrary, only the consumer knows what fits his needs and budget best...and consumers know far better than any mfr will tell you which ones work and which ones they have nothing but problems with--and why (sometimes, what didn't work for somebody else will work just fine for you 'cuz your circumstances are different)... and it IS up to the consumer to do the homework necessary to determine that. Ask the right questions before you buy, not after you've found out you made a bad choice. And btw.. I have no axe to grind with any mfr--I "calls 'em ALL as I sees 'em" ...so don't be shy...I'm here to help.I guess I feel somewhat beter...
The PHII does work well as a manual toilet. My hopes were, as a liveaboard with my wife on a sailboat, that I could have single button convenience at the dock with shore power and the LectraSan and revert to full manual operation and direct overboard discharge when cruising in permissable areas. I also don't like not having redundency of a manual system should the electric motor fail, hence the PHII-E. The LectraSan macerates so there was no need to do it twice and when your cruising in areas where discharge is acceptable, overboard it goes with no electrical consumption at all. I have no holding tank, yet I am completely legal in a MSD-I device in the location I am located. Should I decide to add a holding tank I will probably just add a good flexible tank to the discharge of the LectraSan so I don't have an odor problem. Do you have any suggestions for a electric/manual toilet that works? Or am I living a pipe dream? If there aren't any options, I'll stay manual into my LectraSan and make the best out of it. Thanks Peggy! Tom
The PHII does work well as a manual toilet. My hopes were, as a liveaboard with my wife on a sailboat, that I could have single button convenience at the dock with shore power and the LectraSan and revert to full manual operation and direct overboard discharge when cruising in permissable areas. I also don't like not having redundency of a manual system should the electric motor fail, hence the PHII-E. The LectraSan macerates so there was no need to do it twice and when your cruising in areas where discharge is acceptable, overboard it goes with no electrical consumption at all. I have no holding tank, yet I am completely legal in a MSD-I device in the location I am located. Should I decide to add a holding tank I will probably just add a good flexible tank to the discharge of the LectraSan so I don't have an odor problem. Do you have any suggestions for a electric/manual toilet that works? Or am I living a pipe dream? If there aren't any options, I'll stay manual into my LectraSan and make the best out of it. Thanks Peggy! Tom
Stay manual...
And if/when you add a holding tank, do NOT make it a flexible tank! For the reasons why, check out the article in the HM forum reference library called something like "Odor Control in Holding Tanks." And let me help you spec out the installation. Let's not have any MORE buyer's remorse on your boat!
And if/when you add a holding tank, do NOT make it a flexible tank! For the reasons why, check out the article in the HM forum reference library called something like "Odor Control in Holding Tanks." And let me help you spec out the installation. Let's not have any MORE buyer's remorse on your boat!
OK, I give up!!!
Thanks Peggy! I will consult you for advice if and when I undertake additional "Head" work in the future. In the meantime stroke, stroke, stroke, hey it's good excersise right? Hope you had a great holiday and thanks for being a good sport! The plus side to this whole thing is I'll be saving money on not having to buy as much CP. Tom
Thanks Peggy! I will consult you for advice if and when I undertake additional "Head" work in the future. In the meantime stroke, stroke, stroke, hey it's good excersise right? Hope you had a great holiday and thanks for being a good sport! The plus side to this whole thing is I'll be saving money on not having to buy as much CP. Tom
You should have head off. . . .
this problem by going over their heads at Raritan. Or is that the problem, the people reading the mail are in over their heads? Not sure if I am ahead or a behind.
this problem by going over their heads at Raritan. Or is that the problem, the people reading the mail are in over their heads? Not sure if I am ahead or a behind.
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